Trains.com

Short-Haul Sleepers

Posted by George Hamlin
on Sunday, June 16, 2019

While perusing Amtrak’s Five Year Equipment Asset Line Plan (FY2019+) recently, I was surprised to learn, on page 27, that arrival of the new Viewliner Sleepers will be used to “Reinstate sleeper service on Northeast Regional Trains 65, 66 and 67”. These trains (and their predecessors) once provided overnight first-class service on what had become the “Twilight Shoreliner”, operating between Boston, New York City, Washington and on to Newport News, Virginia.

In doing so, they were carrying on a long-time railroad passenger service tradition, namely sleeping car service departing late in the evening and arriving in the destination at, or sometimes, before breakfast time.  While virtually all of Amtrak’s long-haul trains offer this type of accommodation (the exception being the “Palmetto”, between Savannah, Georgia and New York City), for the most part they don’t serve market pairs that fit the late evening/early morning paradigm, particularly on a round-trip basis.

Prior to Amtrak, this type of service served hundreds of city-pairs in the U.S. (as well as Canada, where it persisted until fairly recently in the Montreal-Toronto market), and was the backbone of business travel back when most of that entity relied on trains, rather than airplanes, or the Interstate Highway system.  Now, air travel has become almost ubiquitous, and, the Interstate system, due to the relatively high average speeds possible on many trips, has caused some business travelers, particularly on shorter routes, to set out early in the morning, and return, either the same day, or multiple days later; this does offer the advantage of fewer nights away from home, in many cases, as does the air mode. 

Even post-World War II, in the 1950s, however, there were a plethora of overnight rail options. In many markets, particularly in the east and Midwest, there were competing services in terms of railroads and routes in a number of markets.  Peter T. Maikens’ excellent book Night Trains, subtitled The Pullman System in the Golden Years of American Train Travel, provides an in-depth look at this sector of rail travel, including, a final chapter titled “Midnight Sleepers” that shows where each of these conveyances were as of midnight on a typical night in the early 1950s, using the July 1951 and March 1952 issues of the Official Guide of the Railways as reference sources.

As an example, the New York Central’s train 417, the “Midnight Special” from Cleveland to Cincinnati was awaiting its 12:10 A.M. departure in the Forest City’s downtown Union Terminal.  In addition to cars from both Cleveland, and via a connection from NYC train 5, from Buffalo, to Miami, Florida, there were also local Pullmans: a pair of 12 section, 1 drawing room heavyweights, and a postwar, streamlined 22 roomette car, all terminating in the Queen City.

Sleeper passengers would have been allowed to board early, probably at 10 P.M., and hopefully, are already slumbering when 417 gets underway.  In addition to the Cincinnati cars, there are two more 12-1 heavyweights in the train’s consist, one each from Cleveland to Columbus and Dayton.  These will be “set out” at their destinations, with passengers being able to occupy their space until, typically, 7 or 8 A.M., quite a bit after the arrivals in Columbus (3:20 A.M.) or Dayton (5:35 A.M.).  In total, seven Pullmans will depart Cleveland on this train.

By the late 1960s, virtually all of this once-extensive network had vanished, due to the encroachments of air and highway travel.  Consulting the June 1969 Official Guide indicates that not only was there no sleeping car service from Cleveland to Cincinnati, there was no overnight train in this market at all.  Chicago-St. Louis, once a robust, competitive rail travel market, was down to a single railroad (the GM&O); its’ “Midnight Special” still operated, but sans any sleepers.  The Post Office’s large-scale removal of mail from passenger trains in 1967 resulted in the loss of most of the remaining Railway Post Office services, and did nothing to help the economics of short-haul overnight passenger trains, either.

In the populous Northeast, there was still overnight sleeper service between New York and both Boston and Washington, as well as between Boston and Washington.  New York-Pittsburgh, and New York-Montreal, the latter typically with multiple cars, continued to persist.   One of the last vestiges of competition existed in the Chicago-Twin Cities market, still served by both the Milwaukee Road’s “Pioneer Limited” and the Burlington’s “Black Hawk”, although the latter could muster only a Slumbercoach, rather than a “real” sleeper.  In short, this product was well on its way to oblivion, even fifty years ago.

Which brings us back to the upcoming restoration by Amtrak.  Will there be a market?  There certainly are numerous potential strikes against it, including the history cited here, and the fact that few of today’s travelers have any experience with this type of travel, or even any memory that it existed.  This suggests that there might be an opportunity to experiment with features and fares, as well as promoting short-haul sleeper service to see if there really is still a market for this type of product offering (including its “bathroom down the hall”, for most occupants).  Time to turn on the creativity and find out; the likely results range from no real demand, through the limited service mentioned in the Equipment Plan, to maybe there’s a real need/desire for this type of travel.  Time will tell!

Comments
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IowaFrisian
Added 6 years ago

I personally and many of my family and friends would definitely use a short-haul sleeper for our trips. It beats staying in a hotel because your still moving towards your destination, and I'd imagine much more comfortable than a bus (although the last time I rode a bus for any real distance was 40 years ago to San Antonio from Des Moines). And my wife and I can no longer drive in shifts since I became disabled several years ago.

George Hamlin
Added 6 years ago

That's interesting, although it appears not to be operating at the moment, while they change the suspension system for a better ride.

dmitzel
Added 6 years ago
dmitzel said:

For those that feel Millennials won't ride an overnight sleeper service I offer this: https://www.ridecabin.com/

If they'll do so on an overnight bus bumping along the highway I can't imagine having more personal space in a railway sleeper would be objectionable to this demographic. All Amtrak needs to do is copy the marketing approach.

david vartanoff
Added 6 years ago

George, You are correct that there might be a rush on the showers, but how many are there in a Superliner to serve those in the 14 roomettes/? 2 and if you  are upstairs, more distant than merely down the hall.  (I will say in passing that the water retention BS while logical for toilets is totally lame for washing face, shaving, showering, brushing teeth.)  

Back to the issue at hand, I book a roomette for the relatively short day trip Oak to San Luis Obispo or vice versa.    I get to nap with a door between my snoring and other pax, and NB if I bought the steak dinner (the most reliable of the entrees) it would, tipped out, be about half my room charge.    So, whether JPS1 likes it or not, this rider opts to pay for a sleeper--booked for a trip to Chicago in Sept--thus as long as our cash is green we will be using LDTs and sleepers.    

As to Pittsburgh, Amtrak needs to turn the Capitol back to single level, and make the connection to/from the Pennsylvanian include through cars.coaches, sleepers and a real diner open for the entire run to NYC.    Someone commented recently that years ago Amtrak experimented with having a diner open full time.  The implication was that having food  available at all hours boosted sales enough to cover the extra crew hours.   That is the essence of business, have the cash register singing as many hours as possible since the acquisition/maintenance costs of a diner (or any other car)   do not decrease when it is empty or parked.

George Hamlin
Added 6 years ago

Sounds like there will be some takers!

ceb21wal
Added 6 years ago
ceb21wal said:

I go from Boston to Washington and return about five or six times a year and always use 65, 66 or 67 and get a business class seat.  Always used the sleeper until it was discontinued.  Would love to see it returned.

Backshop
Added 6 years ago
Backshop said:

XOTower "hideously cramped airplanes" are what the consumer wants.  All they care about is price.  If you want more room, it's there, you just have to pay for it.  On Delta, it's called Economy Comfort Plus  and Business Classes.

Philly Amtrak Fan
Added 6 years ago

I would love a sleeper train between Philly and Pittsburgh. It would be very convenient. I could board before midnight on one end and wake up in the other. Right now, I'd spend a full 8 hours traveling between the two, meaning I'd spend most of my day traveling. I can see the same for a train between Los Angeles and San Jose along the Coast Starlight route. When I traveled between the two cities, I used a Thruway Bus from San Jose to Santa Barbara to a Pacific Surfliner because I didn't want to lose my entire day on the Coast Starlight.

XOTOWER
Added 6 years ago
XOTOWER said:

The service makes a lot of sense and will be well received. I used it between Cleveland and DC and it was totally comfortable. The things that lack common sense are the punishing price and the dreadful food. I will endure a lot to avoid using PHL airport and the hideously cramped airplanes that fly now but Amtrak keeps making it harder and harder to avoid the ordeal of air travel.

WARREN CRAYCROFT
Added 6 years ago

Interesting side-bar:  In France, where the TGV high-speed train network can take you almost anywhere in the country in a few daylight hours, the SNCF has eliminated almost all of their sleeper service.  This includes the iconic "couchettes", with 6 passengers occupying a single compartment in a very interesting "social sleeping" arrangement.   There are a few French overnight sleepers left that service the lightly populated corners of the country.   It's a shame that we cannot solve the sleeper problem here in the U.S. with an extensive high-speed day-trip network.

George Hamlin
Added 6 years ago

John:  Yes, there are still markets where this works, just not that many.  I'm highly in favor of finding out whether this works in today's market, and behaving accordingly when the result is known, i.e. either keep the window clean, or pull the shade.

JOHN F LARKIN
Added 6 years ago

You might look at Amtrak's California Zephyr which allows westbound passengers to depart Omaha at 2305 (11:05 p.m.) and arrive at Denver at 7:15 am. after eating breakfast.  The return schedule is depart Denver at 1910 (7:10 pm) and arrive Omaha at 0459 (5:00 a.m.), roughly a 9 hour trip.  It's about a 7-1/2 hour drive and 1:45 minute flight (AFTER you finally make it on the plane).  I took my son on a trip to the Air Force Academy and found Amtrak to be a very good option, plus the breakfast on the train hadn't been screwed up by Amtrak (yet).  One of the few overnight trips left, but a good option.

George Hamlin
Added 6 years ago

Sadly, one of many in this category.

jgfuller
Added 6 years ago
jgfuller said:

Sigh -- how the Mighty have fallen. In 1956, The Federal had SIX sleepers between Washington and Boston.

JPS1
Added 6 years ago
JPS1 said:

In 2018 the Pennsylvanian’s on-time percentage at its end points was 72.3.  The average on-time percentage at its intermediate stations was 66.4.  The average subsidy per passenger was $12.10, which was covered by the Pennsylvania taxpayers.

The eastbound Pennsylvania departs Pittsburgh at 7:30 am, a reasonable time, and arrives in New York City at 4:56 pm.  Westbound the Pennsylvanian departs NYC at 10:52 am and arrives in Pittsburgh at 7:59 pm.

In 2018 the Empire Builder, which serves Minneapolis to Grand Forks, recorded an average on-time percentage at its end points of 57.3 percent.  However, its average on-time percentages at its intermediate stations was 25.  The average subsidy per passenger on the Empire Builder was $116.58.  It was covered by the federal taxpayers.

The Builder departs Minneapolis for Grand Forks at 10:20 pm and arrives in Grand Forks at 4:41 am.  Eastbound the train departs Grand Forks at 1:02 am and arrives in Minneapolis at 7:43 am.  Unless one is a serious night owl, the times in and out of Grand Forks are hardly convenient.  

The Pennsylvania, which is a State Supported train that covers a reasonable distance, can be scoped to serve its market at reasonable times and reasonable cost to the taxpayers.  The Builder is a long-distance train that is scoped to serve its endpoints at reasonable times if it is on time, which based on the 2018 results was not very often.  But it calls at many of its intermediate stations at unreasonable times, and it requires a average subsidy per passenger that is 9.6 times the average subsidy for a rider on the Pennsylvanian.  

RailPlanner
Added 6 years ago

Upon reading the comments, I see they run beyond just strictly sleeper service.  One fellow stated he used Amtrak between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg and that "made sense",  but he further pontificated, "long distance trains don't make sense"...so train travel between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg makes sense, but between Minneapolis/St. Paul and Grand Forks, or Omaha and Ottumwa (Des Moines)  makes no sense...interesting myoptic view.

George Hamlin
Added 6 years ago

David:  Nice to hear from someone with actual experience.  Re the showers, that would be nice, but I'm wondering how people will do in the morning with only "baths down the hall" (two, I think) for the roomettes.

david vartanoff
Added 6 years ago

There are those who prefer waking at "zero dark 30' at home, riding Acela both ways, and returning home;  this does not mean there is no market for  sleepers on the overnight train on the NEC.  

The NY-DC sleeper was very convenient for my purposes both in PRR and Amtrak days.   Useful after either late work or pleasant evening time in NYC.   You needed to use the sleeper because the few times when I tried coach (younger--less money) were awful as the crews kept the lights too bright unlike most LDTs where lights are low to facilitate sleep.   It is ironic and sad that GM&O had given up the sleeper on their Midnight Special--they had been involved in designing slumbercoaches asa way to serve that market better.   When Amtrak ran an overnight train between Sacramento and LA via the coast route that also was a convenient overnight trip.  While that train never got a sleeper w/showers, if it were reinstated w/VL sleepers, being able to arrive in LA or the Bay Area for the day refreshed is IMHO a viable market.  

The suggestion by others of marketing 'getaway packages' to/from Williamsburg is certainly worth doing.  

Garth1943
Added 6 years ago
Garth1943 said:

There still are overnight sleeper trains from London to Glasgow and from London to Edinburgh, both distances of about 400 miles. I presume that John Privara's story about a "wealthy European airline guy" refers to the Renaissance cars that were designed for the channel tunnel and later sold to Via Rail, which still uses them between Montreal  and Halifax. I  think the problem there was that London to Paris through the tunnel takes only about as long as from New York to Washington--too short for an overnight train to make any sense. Living near Toronto I would still appreciate overnight sleeping car trains from Toronto to Montreal, Toronto to New York, and Toronto to Chicago if they were restored. I travelled all of those routes in sleeping cars in the days when it was still possible to do so

JOHN PRIVARA
Added 6 years ago

Is this type of service available (widely) in Japan or Western Europe (specifically WESTERN Europe where the standard of living and expectations of comfort is the same as the US).

If it's NOT, why fantasize about it here.  If it IS, then it's worth a try.   (I seem to recall some famous wealthy European airline guy building a set of sleeping car trains and then selling them to Canada because he realized he was just fantasizing about trains).  

JPS1
Added 6 years ago
JPS1 said:

The hassles are over blown by the exceptions.  

Last week I flew from Austin to Pittsburgh.  I cleared TSA in Austin in about five minutes.  My flights departed on time and arrived on time.  The crew on Southwest was courteous, efficient, and effective.  Upon arrival in Pittsburgh I was able to retrieve my bag in approximately 10 minutes, and then my brother and I were on our way for a nice dinner.  The return trip was equally uneventful.  

I am retired.  But before retirement I worked for a Fortune 225 Corporation in Dallas.  For the last five years of my career I worked in Australia.  I made 28 crossings of the Pacific during that time.  I flew on American and Qantas.  I never had a bad experience.  On only one of the trips were we delayed by more than 1 hour.  The service on American and Qantas was excellent.  Approximately 40 percent of my trips were in business class and the remainder in economy class.

I have ridden over every mile of the Amtrak system except from Sacramento to Portland, Oregon and Chicago to New Orleans.  Most of Amtrak's on-board crew have been courteous, efficient, and effective.  But the consistently late running of the long-distance trains, especially the Texas Eagle, has turned me off on them.  They are not a serious transportation option for most people.  

Last weekend we - family - rode No. 42, the Pennsylvanian, from Pittsburgh to Harrisburg.  The train was on-time.  The crew was courteous, efficient, and effective.  We were in business class.  My brother, who is not a regular Amtrak rider, commented several times about how nice the business class car was.  He compared it to first class on American Airlines.  

No. 42 is where passengers trains make some sense.  The long-distance trains don't.  Neither does an overnight sleeping car along the NEC or anywhere else on the Amtrak system.

runnerdude48
Added 6 years ago

I don't agree Dave. All forms of travel have their hassles and rail is no exception.  At least with air travel you get to your destination (and home) quickly.  Rail only has advantages for relatively short trips in urban areas and then only during day time hours.

daveklepper
Added 6 years ago

Don't agree.  Air travel has hasles now

JPS1
Added 6 years ago
JPS1 said:

Oltmannd is correct.  The service needs to cover its incremental variable costs and ideally contribute something to the fixed costs.  Having said that, I would be surprised if it would cover the incremental costs.

If there is a market for overnight passenger rail on the NEC, then a better approach than a room car would be a business class car configured like the business class section of business class on overseas flights.  Room cars are labor intensive.

This appears to be an example of a taxpayer sump that has little real competition attempting to live in the past.  It is over.  And it is time for Amtrak or any other wannabe operator to realize it.  I am tired of having my taxpayer dollars chasing a 1950s solution to a 2019 problem.

George Hamlin
Added 6 years ago

Dave:  That's quite a story about the (successful) call to the dispatcher!

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