Layouts and layout building

Hi everyone, long time lurker, first timer poster. I've been a model railroader since I was a kid, have had a few basic layouts, and had a garage layout that was extremely basic with several loops of track. It never got past trackage.

I've discovered that I'm completely inept at layout design. I've read all sorts of books, articles, and layout design primers, but when I try to sketch out a layout, it just never combines into something I'm ever happy with. Even closely. I've also read Space Mouse's primer, and looked at numerous layout design sites.

So, I've managed to secure a 9x9 space in my den for a layout. I have alot of HO track, engines and cars from the previous layout, and need some help with some sort of track plan!

My Givens are a den, which will be pretty much arranged around the railroad. My only plan at the moment is a set of modules that are two foot wide and three feet long that create a rectangle along three of the walls, and one that divides the room. There is an open space in the center to operate the layout from. I'll just duck under to get into it. No walkaround room on any of the sides except the one facing the rest of the den. On each of the four interior corners, I'm planning on joining the corners with a triangle of wood to ease the turning radius, probably 6-8 inches at the widest point. I'm going to use open benchwork with styrofoam base.

I have a Digitrax Zephyr system, and have began to slowly place decoders in the many engines I have, so I plan on running the layout on DCC.

My Druthers are, to start, I would like to have a two track mainline running around the entire rectangle for continuous running. The tracks do not have to stay together, but I like the look of dual mainlines, so at some point I'd like them to be together. I wouldn't mind doing a twice around if it's doable in this space. I also want two continuous runs for my two daughters, who will be operating the layout with me. They are old enough to use the throttle while I shunt cars around.

Minimum radius is 18'. I have some of the newer motive power, IE long engines, and at least the mainline has to accomodate them. Otherwise it's GPs and SDs.

I am using BNSF equipment and modeling the Oklahoma area. I'm not prototypical at all, so no need to model a specfic part of a railroad, just going for the look. I would like to include an interchange so I can "guest" show other railroads and keep it interesting. 

I enjoy switching, so would like to include alot of industries to play around with. I'd like to be able to switch the industries to a small classification yard, then move them to the larger sorting yard and disappear off the layout, and then in reverse. A realistic moving of goods, if you will.

The only industry I have to include is a grain elevator, as they have always facinated me, and there are two large ones in Yukon, Oklahoma, where I live, so I have a great amount of study material at my fingertips. I'd also like to include a National Guard loading dock, just a place to drive armored vehicles onto flatbeds so I can merge another hobby of mine, plastic models, into this one too.

I wouldn't mind a grade, but I can't see how or where I'd put one that would work in this small space.

I know alot of people are going to say, you have to design it yourself, but honestly, I've tried, and I'm terrible! I tried computer programs, doodling, combining track plans from Model Railroader Track Plans books is what turns out looking the best! I'm planning a trip to our local yards here soon to take lots of pictures, maybe scare up some examples I can use.

Any help, suggestions or comments are welcome! Thanks in advance.

   It sounds like you and I have very similar problems. At one time I was trying to build an around the walls HO layout in a 10 x 10 bedroom. I finally gave up and built a very nice N scale layout. I made change after change to the HO layout and could never make it work. You need straight areas of track for sidings and switching, and such a small square area ends up being almost all curves. I now have a 17 x 15 area, and I immediately switched back to HO. I just completed my main line, and thought that I had come up with a good track plan. But after running trains, it turns out that it doesn't work very well for switching. I am to the point that I don't really care, because I am mostly in this for the model building. One huge diorama as you might call it. From what you are saying you want on your layout, I don;t think you are going to be able to make it work. But then, I , like you, suck at designing layouts. I have sometimes thought that a 4 x 8 would actually be a better set up, than the around the room shelves. All I can do is wish you luck and hopefully some of the members that are good at design can help you out.

Thanks for the reply! When I moved to Oklahoma, my previous layout had actually been an N scale. I Ebayed all my engines and rolling stock to pay for some outstanding bills, and figured if I would do Model RR ever again, I would do it in HO. I was a teenager and I just couldn't keep those darn small N scale engines running right.

So fast forward to now, I'm a heck of alot more patient now, and now I wish I hadn't spent 500-700 dollars at a local hobby store buying HO stuff when it went out of business. Alas, switching to N scale just isn't in the cards, no matter how much I wished I could do it now.

I hear you on the one big diorama! I'm great at building scenery, I can't wait to get to that part, just have to get the peksy track plan I can't seem to come up with out of the way!

Regards.

Travis

 I feel your pain- I have about a 10x10 area to build an HO scale layout in. You say that you've done several designs but scrapped them. Have you looked at each one for what worked and what didn't? With some fiddling, you might be able to combine elements into something you like. You might also consider a dual-layer layout with a train elevator or other space-saving way to get to the next level. Hope you find something that works.

Alas, I proposed a dual level, but my girlfriend vetoed the idea of stuff on the walls, and the deck would cover the windows in the area. Somehow this is my room, but she still cares how it looks.....don't ask, because I just don't know.

The only parts of the designs I scrapped that worked are those I "borrowed" from Model RR Track Design books. I took a couple of the industrial shelf layouts and placed them on the long sides, with some connecting curves and a small yard and a larg-er yard. Even though I know what is good about them, I cannot copy the track design when I start from scratch! Very frustrating. Thanks for the reply!

Hi!

I've been playing with trains since the '50s, and always enjoyed doodling with layout designs, and did my own for my layouts over the years.  That being said, I still got a lot of good ideas from the various layout design books that have come out.  As you are aware, Kalmbach publishes a number of them, and you can pick up used ones on Ebay rather cheap.  The thing is, layout designs published decades ago may still provide you with great ideas.

I suggest you pick up some Quadrille paper, pick an appropriate scale, layout the space perimeter, and with the help of a rule, compass, etc., start translating some of those published plans - or parts of them to the scale on your paper.   And, start placing out some track to get a feel for what it will look like.  Believe me, a whole lot (or part of) of fancy model railroads were built in the same manner.

Late last year I decided to rebuild my existing 11x15 two level HO layout.  Most of the month of December was given to the design phase.  I used drawings from years past, various books, and used up a lot of paper before I came down with what best suited my situation.  And even with that, I have had to make some revisions as I go along (in actual construction).

Hope the above helps!  Sometimes the hardest part of building a layout is just starting the project.  Trust me - been there, done that.

Mobilman44

 Hi BNSF1979,

I know exactly how you feel - designing a layout is quite some task, that requires a lot of time, patience and ability to compromise. I guess we all want to have that dream layout, but have to accept to end up having something completely different.

The trick is to know what you want. Make a list of your requirement, like you already stated.

Double mainline track,  a yard, lots of lineside industries, maybe some diesel serving facilities - hey, that is a lot for 9 by 9 layout. If you can go for single mainline it will already help. Make a drawing of the room you have available for your layout, add exact positions of doors, windows, closets and cabinets that you need to reach . This determines the shape and the space you have for your layout - this is the basis to work with. Post that picture here - maybe I have something to work with.

 I still have not finished my layout design - my space is very much similar to yours. Out of the umpteen plans I have prepared using RTS there maybe one that could catch your liking.

A suggestion would be to pick some LDE's (Layout Design Elelments - portions of prototype railroads that appeal to you) that you like, compress them while still maintaining their operability potential, then connect between them with various stretches of mainline scenes. That way you keep the prototype flavor while freelancing your railroad. John Colley, Port Townsend, WA

 An alternative approach is to not plan the layout.

Build several 2x3 table top modules each with it's own legs.  C clamp them together and lay some sectional track and turnouts.  Run some trains.  Rearrange the track and modules.  Run some trains.  When you have an arrangement you like, add scenery.

Enjoy

Paul

 Hi,

I totally know how you feel.  I model in HO as well and have a 9 by 11 room available.  My solution is to go three levels.  The helix is 30 inch radius and takes up a huge amount of room.  The upper deck is 12 inch, middle deck is 18 inch and the lower deck is between 18 and 24 inch.  To make things worse there are duck unders as well.  But if I want a layout that has some variety then this is the way to go. 

As for layout design,  I too find it difficult to plan ahead due to the difficulty in visiualizing the track geometry and the restriction it creates.  Still, though the motto is better something then nothing at all.

Frank 

My opinion - and it's just that, an opinion - is to start with a slightly smaller, relatively simple around the room design like the Heart of Georgia (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HOGRR/).  Add a little bit more width to each of the sides.  Then double track the main, with crossovers where the current passing sidings end/start.  See if the benefits of the addtional trackage are worth the cost in terms of crowding, complexity, and so on.  Do this with adding some other features you want, too.  Try fitting them in, and then decide if the addition is really worth the extra complexity and crowding.  Usually, in my design iteration process, it's not.

You are not going to get a full blown yard in the space available without clobbering everything else.  Yards are realtive space hogs unless carefully designed, and then only when not used for storage.  If you want storage space, end a siding at the edge and use cassettes to bring cars and locomotives on/off the layout.

Reality is that the best you can hope for in HO in this space is a maximum of 7 specific scenes, and you may be much better off with only 4 instead of trying to fit the 5rd and 6th in.  I run into the stumbling block that I'm not really prepared to prioritize between scene #4 and scene #5 and scene #6 in my 7.5 x 10ft space.  Once I accept that 6 scenes won't really fit, and decide which one I'm willing to give up, the whole thing works a lot better.

Included in deciding which scenes are keepers and which aren't:  a continuous run counts as a scene, twice-around counts as a scene, double track counts as a scene, and adequate aisle space counts as a scene because choosing each really crowds out or just plain crowds other scenes to the point where you don't like the result.

As you can tell, the hardest point of my planning efforts is keeping track growth from happening.  I have to keep asking myself the hard questions - what did that track addition gain me?  Is it really worth the cost?  Do I gain enough operationally from that track to justify retaining it?  Does every remaining track have a real purpose and operational function?  Is it too short to properly serve its function?

Even when done with planning and in the building process, I am constantly tempted to add additional track.  I have to return to my original purpose and vision and priorities, and stay within those constraints.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

HO, N, O, other?  I would guess from the 18" min radius HO but don't want to presume that.

Edit - Ah I see the quote in another note that contains the answer.   

I operate on the Gulf Colorado & Santa Fe (featured in Model Railroading 2004) which is set in Oklahoma.  It is not much more than a 2 foot wide shelf layout.  Here a train creeps past passengers waiting at the Gene Autry, Oklahoma station.

 Here is a sketch to get the discussion flowing - it is not a solution optimized for your layout, but maybe it will give you some ideas.

 Basic shape is from Scott Perry's HOG (Heart Of Georgia) "better beginner layout" - ie donut shaped, with operators in center cockpit, wide curves - at least 26" radius, two longish (for the room) passing sidings in the two corners diagonally across from each other, industry sidings out towards the edges.

 Another idea is from Byron Henderson's Alameda layout - using the same piece of track for multiple different purposes at the same time instead of having a lot of dedicated tracks - which we don't have room for.

 Let's grab an idea from Ulrich (Sir Madog) - mainline on raised embankment through the landscape. Allows you to have a road underpass under the railroad.

 Not too many scenes - a bedroom sized H0 scale single level layout can do maybe three or four scenes, not much more. Not a huge amount of switching - this is mainly a railfanning layout, with room for meets and overtakes of trains consisting of up to a max of about fifteen 60-foot cars.

 Let's try to fit in a couple of tracks of staging below the layout, and a not too insanely steep  track down to staging, which at the same time allows foreign power to run from staging into the city, drop off cars at the yard, pick up new cars and go back to staging.

 Layout can be in one of these modes:

 - Two kids racing each other on parallel loops, no room for switching while this goes on
 - Mainline running by one or two people, doing meets and overtakes using the "sidings" formed by the crossovers.
 - Local switching by one person, using the city and the yard (not really work room for two people in the lower right hand corner)

Suggestions, comments, new ideas ?

 Smile,
 Stein

Stein is on the right track.  I designed several layouts for a small bedroom.  I think you should begin with the largest "want"--that is the yard for classifying cars to make up and break down trains.   I suggest making a stub-ended yard with the end of the yard in one of the corners of the room and the yard ladder, or throat toward the adjacent corner of the room.  That is, one wall is basically occupied by the yard.  You can disguise the end of the yard if you wish with an overpass for instance.  After that, you may want a grain elevator and it's siding(s) along another wall...and so on. 

I would recommend using at least 24 inch radius curves.  Although your tangent trackage will be shorter, I firmly believe you would be much happier with the more moderate curves.  The look of larger engines and cars rounding 18 inch radius curves may not be appealing to you.  I would also design a staging yard beneath the layout.  You can either have trains get there by running down a gradual decline, or use some type of hidden elevator or ramp (I use one that's 8 feet long that limits the length of my trains, but you could decide for yourself your train lengths).

Good luck.

Mike

Good comments by all.  Stein's plan is a good start.  With a layout that size, it might be difficult to have a lot of different scenes. 

I like the idea of the west wall being a stub yard and combining that with the city scene and maybe some switching of building flats.  Refering to the spcae like a clock, I would start the lead at about 8 oclock with a curved switch.  At about 11 oclock, I would have a river.  The river would be a natural scene separator and would give the yard a reason to be tucked into a tight space, in otherwise rather wide open Oklahoma.  12 oclock through 6 oclock could be more rural with a junction and grain elevator placed there.  Also, next to the grain elevator, you could actually have another industry that might be served by another railroad that shares trackage rights with your BNSF, and could operate on one of the two BNSF mains.