I'm terrible at layout design!

   It sounds like you and I have very similar problems. At one time I was trying to build an around the walls HO layout in a 10 x 10 bedroom. I finally gave up and built a very nice N scale layout. I made change after change to the HO layout and could never make it work. You need straight areas of track for sidings and switching, and such a small square area ends up being almost all curves. I now have a 17 x 15 area, and I immediately switched back to HO. I just completed my main line, and thought that I had come up with a good track plan. But after running trains, it turns out that it doesn't work very well for switching. I am to the point that I don't really care, because I am mostly in this for the model building. One huge diorama as you might call it. From what you are saying you want on your layout, I don;t think you are going to be able to make it work. But then, I , like you, suck at designing layouts. I have sometimes thought that a 4 x 8 would actually be a better set up, than the around the room shelves. All I can do is wish you luck and hopefully some of the members that are good at design can help you out.

Thanks for the reply! When I moved to Oklahoma, my previous layout had actually been an N scale. I Ebayed all my engines and rolling stock to pay for some outstanding bills, and figured if I would do Model RR ever again, I would do it in HO. I was a teenager and I just couldn't keep those darn small N scale engines running right.

So fast forward to now, I'm a heck of alot more patient now, and now I wish I hadn't spent 500-700 dollars at a local hobby store buying HO stuff when it went out of business. Alas, switching to N scale just isn't in the cards, no matter how much I wished I could do it now.

I hear you on the one big diorama! I'm great at building scenery, I can't wait to get to that part, just have to get the peksy track plan I can't seem to come up with out of the way!

Regards.

Travis

 I feel your pain- I have about a 10x10 area to build an HO scale layout in. You say that you've done several designs but scrapped them. Have you looked at each one for what worked and what didn't? With some fiddling, you might be able to combine elements into something you like. You might also consider a dual-layer layout with a train elevator or other space-saving way to get to the next level. Hope you find something that works.

Alas, I proposed a dual level, but my girlfriend vetoed the idea of stuff on the walls, and the deck would cover the windows in the area. Somehow this is my room, but she still cares how it looks.....don't ask, because I just don't know.

The only parts of the designs I scrapped that worked are those I "borrowed" from Model RR Track Design books. I took a couple of the industrial shelf layouts and placed them on the long sides, with some connecting curves and a small yard and a larg-er yard. Even though I know what is good about them, I cannot copy the track design when I start from scratch! Very frustrating. Thanks for the reply!

Hi!

I've been playing with trains since the '50s, and always enjoyed doodling with layout designs, and did my own for my layouts over the years.  That being said, I still got a lot of good ideas from the various layout design books that have come out.  As you are aware, Kalmbach publishes a number of them, and you can pick up used ones on Ebay rather cheap.  The thing is, layout designs published decades ago may still provide you with great ideas.

I suggest you pick up some Quadrille paper, pick an appropriate scale, layout the space perimeter, and with the help of a rule, compass, etc., start translating some of those published plans - or parts of them to the scale on your paper.   And, start placing out some track to get a feel for what it will look like.  Believe me, a whole lot (or part of) of fancy model railroads were built in the same manner.

Late last year I decided to rebuild my existing 11x15 two level HO layout.  Most of the month of December was given to the design phase.  I used drawings from years past, various books, and used up a lot of paper before I came down with what best suited my situation.  And even with that, I have had to make some revisions as I go along (in actual construction).

Hope the above helps!  Sometimes the hardest part of building a layout is just starting the project.  Trust me - been there, done that.

Mobilman44

 Hi BNSF1979,

I know exactly how you feel - designing a layout is quite some task, that requires a lot of time, patience and ability to compromise. I guess we all want to have that dream layout, but have to accept to end up having something completely different.

The trick is to know what you want. Make a list of your requirement, like you already stated.

Double mainline track,  a yard, lots of lineside industries, maybe some diesel serving facilities - hey, that is a lot for 9 by 9 layout. If you can go for single mainline it will already help. Make a drawing of the room you have available for your layout, add exact positions of doors, windows, closets and cabinets that you need to reach . This determines the shape and the space you have for your layout - this is the basis to work with. Post that picture here - maybe I have something to work with.

 I still have not finished my layout design - my space is very much similar to yours. Out of the umpteen plans I have prepared using RTS there maybe one that could catch your liking.

A suggestion would be to pick some LDE's (Layout Design Elelments - portions of prototype railroads that appeal to you) that you like, compress them while still maintaining their operability potential, then connect between them with various stretches of mainline scenes. That way you keep the prototype flavor while freelancing your railroad. John Colley, Port Townsend, WA

 An alternative approach is to not plan the layout.

Build several 2x3 table top modules each with it's own legs.  C clamp them together and lay some sectional track and turnouts.  Run some trains.  Rearrange the track and modules.  Run some trains.  When you have an arrangement you like, add scenery.

Enjoy

Paul

 Hi,

I totally know how you feel.  I model in HO as well and have a 9 by 11 room available.  My solution is to go three levels.  The helix is 30 inch radius and takes up a huge amount of room.  The upper deck is 12 inch, middle deck is 18 inch and the lower deck is between 18 and 24 inch.  To make things worse there are duck unders as well.  But if I want a layout that has some variety then this is the way to go. 

As for layout design,  I too find it difficult to plan ahead due to the difficulty in visiualizing the track geometry and the restriction it creates.  Still, though the motto is better something then nothing at all.

Frank 

My opinion - and it's just that, an opinion - is to start with a slightly smaller, relatively simple around the room design like the Heart of Georgia (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HOGRR/).  Add a little bit more width to each of the sides.  Then double track the main, with crossovers where the current passing sidings end/start.  See if the benefits of the addtional trackage are worth the cost in terms of crowding, complexity, and so on.  Do this with adding some other features you want, too.  Try fitting them in, and then decide if the addition is really worth the extra complexity and crowding.  Usually, in my design iteration process, it's not.

You are not going to get a full blown yard in the space available without clobbering everything else.  Yards are realtive space hogs unless carefully designed, and then only when not used for storage.  If you want storage space, end a siding at the edge and use cassettes to bring cars and locomotives on/off the layout.

Reality is that the best you can hope for in HO in this space is a maximum of 7 specific scenes, and you may be much better off with only 4 instead of trying to fit the 5rd and 6th in.  I run into the stumbling block that I'm not really prepared to prioritize between scene #4 and scene #5 and scene #6 in my 7.5 x 10ft space.  Once I accept that 6 scenes won't really fit, and decide which one I'm willing to give up, the whole thing works a lot better.

Included in deciding which scenes are keepers and which aren't:  a continuous run counts as a scene, twice-around counts as a scene, double track counts as a scene, and adequate aisle space counts as a scene because choosing each really crowds out or just plain crowds other scenes to the point where you don't like the result.

As you can tell, the hardest point of my planning efforts is keeping track growth from happening.  I have to keep asking myself the hard questions - what did that track addition gain me?  Is it really worth the cost?  Do I gain enough operationally from that track to justify retaining it?  Does every remaining track have a real purpose and operational function?  Is it too short to properly serve its function?

Even when done with planning and in the building process, I am constantly tempted to add additional track.  I have to return to my original purpose and vision and priorities, and stay within those constraints.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

HO, N, O, other?  I would guess from the 18" min radius HO but don't want to presume that.

Edit - Ah I see the quote in another note that contains the answer.   

I operate on the Gulf Colorado & Santa Fe (featured in Model Railroading 2004) which is set in Oklahoma.  It is not much more than a 2 foot wide shelf layout.  Here a train creeps past passengers waiting at the Gene Autry, Oklahoma station.

 Here is a sketch to get the discussion flowing - it is not a solution optimized for your layout, but maybe it will give you some ideas.

 Basic shape is from Scott Perry's HOG (Heart Of Georgia) "better beginner layout" - ie donut shaped, with operators in center cockpit, wide curves - at least 26" radius, two longish (for the room) passing sidings in the two corners diagonally across from each other, industry sidings out towards the edges.

 Another idea is from Byron Henderson's Alameda layout - using the same piece of track for multiple different purposes at the same time instead of having a lot of dedicated tracks - which we don't have room for.

 Let's grab an idea from Ulrich (Sir Madog) - mainline on raised embankment through the landscape. Allows you to have a road underpass under the railroad.

 Not too many scenes - a bedroom sized H0 scale single level layout can do maybe three or four scenes, not much more. Not a huge amount of switching - this is mainly a railfanning layout, with room for meets and overtakes of trains consisting of up to a max of about fifteen 60-foot cars.

 Let's try to fit in a couple of tracks of staging below the layout, and a not too insanely steep  track down to staging, which at the same time allows foreign power to run from staging into the city, drop off cars at the yard, pick up new cars and go back to staging.

 Layout can be in one of these modes:

 - Two kids racing each other on parallel loops, no room for switching while this goes on
 - Mainline running by one or two people, doing meets and overtakes using the "sidings" formed by the crossovers.
 - Local switching by one person, using the city and the yard (not really work room for two people in the lower right hand corner)

Suggestions, comments, new ideas ?

 Smile,
 Stein

Stein is on the right track.  I designed several layouts for a small bedroom.  I think you should begin with the largest "want"--that is the yard for classifying cars to make up and break down trains.   I suggest making a stub-ended yard with the end of the yard in one of the corners of the room and the yard ladder, or throat toward the adjacent corner of the room.  That is, one wall is basically occupied by the yard.  You can disguise the end of the yard if you wish with an overpass for instance.  After that, you may want a grain elevator and it's siding(s) along another wall...and so on. 

I would recommend using at least 24 inch radius curves.  Although your tangent trackage will be shorter, I firmly believe you would be much happier with the more moderate curves.  The look of larger engines and cars rounding 18 inch radius curves may not be appealing to you.  I would also design a staging yard beneath the layout.  You can either have trains get there by running down a gradual decline, or use some type of hidden elevator or ramp (I use one that's 8 feet long that limits the length of my trains, but you could decide for yourself your train lengths).

Good luck.

Mike

Good comments by all.  Stein's plan is a good start.  With a layout that size, it might be difficult to have a lot of different scenes. 

I like the idea of the west wall being a stub yard and combining that with the city scene and maybe some switching of building flats.  Refering to the spcae like a clock, I would start the lead at about 8 oclock with a curved switch.  At about 11 oclock, I would have a river.  The river would be a natural scene separator and would give the yard a reason to be tucked into a tight space, in otherwise rather wide open Oklahoma.  12 oclock through 6 oclock could be more rural with a junction and grain elevator placed there.  Also, next to the grain elevator, you could actually have another industry that might be served by another railroad that shares trackage rights with your BNSF, and could operate on one of the two BNSF mains.

I too wanted to build a small around the room and looked at many designs and did a lot of my own scetches but in the end abandoned the idea as I only had an 8x9 space. I found from the 4x8 I built(different room) that what looks good on a track plan in reality is likely not workable as in too much track for the space. You need room for buildings, roads, scenery, etc.

Having said that however I think that Stein's layout is one of  the best I have seen and if I had a little more space I think I would just steal his plan.

The HOG already mentioned is I think also a good one. I too once liked the idea of double track but found that the space was just too small.

So instead, while working on my existing HO, I'm gathering the bits for an N scale layout, again in the 8x9 space but this time I can just do 2 walls without having to go all around.

Good Luck,

CN Charlie

Wow, lots of responses, thanks everyone!

Mobilman, I guess I will give Ebay a looksee, I was out and about today and managed to stop into a hobby store, and he didn't have any track plan books! Curses! After alot of these responses, it looks like alot more paper or throwing down some track and seeing how it goes is in order.

 Ulrich, I sure hear you about accepting what we can do as opposed to what we'd want to do. I started with a whole room layout, and it's been basically cut in half due to the other power in the house not liking the idea of all the space given over to the layout. I was trying to figure out my scanner, maybe I can get a pic of the room on here. All help and ideas appreciated!

John Colley, I had seen the LDE in this last years Track Planning issue, and I bet it could be of great use, seeing as how nothing could be better inspiration than the real thing! Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this from home? I plan on heading to the yard in these parts sometime, but is there a better way? I was thinking maybe a Google Earth search or something of that nature. I did a search for prototype track plans, but I came up kind of empty, it seems people keep those pretty close to the vest when they get them!

Paul, it will probably come to that at some point when I get the benchwork together and some styrofoam down, I bet it will help planning along alot. My problem is I turn it into a spaghetti bowl, and try to place track everywhere there is space!

Fred, I like the scene planning idea, maybe that will help me keep the sprawl down to a minimum, great idea. I hadn't looked at layout design like that. As for the yard, I'm not really wanting something huge, but, as was pointed out, on this size of a layout it ends up taking alot of real estate, so if I could incorporate it into an industrial siding area, kill two birds with one stone, as it were, that would be something I would shoot for. I just really want a place to stop and start, maybe I need a staging leg that has it's tracks head into a yard, so I have the length, but also the practicality.

Texas Zephyr, did I seriously forget to put HO in there somewhere? I guess I was so caught up actually getting to ask for help somewhere people actually try to help!

Wow Stein, you seriously got more out of that than anything I've put on paper so far! The dual use mainlines I like. Like you said, have to maximize space. The staging under the layout scares me, I've never seen actual pictures of how it's done, and grades just give me the willies! What program did you use to make that design up with, if you don't mind me asking?

OMG, I just realized I made a large error when I posted my Givens, and I have no idea why I said 9x9 when I have 9x12. The 12 feet is on the north/south sides, basically. I bet I was looking at someone's track plan and had it stuck in my head. Whoops!

Mike, I kind of always envisioned the yard ending at the layout edge, disappearing under an overpass, with a mirror backing it. There's another staging yard under the layout idea! I've got a couple cats, too, I wonder if they like to eat trains.....

Doughless, I would love to try a river out, but am concerned about the real estate it would eat up on a layout of this size. Building a few bridges and the river scenery would be alot of fun for me, and it would be a great scene. I guess I could count that as one of my five?

Thanks guys, keep the ideas coming, all these suggestions are really making me think! And maybe I can get a scanner working, or scare up a computer program that I can actually use, and throw down some plans so you can tear them apart!

 Leafing thru some old track plans, I found the one you see below. It was designed for a 9´ by 11´ room, but I guess it could be adapted to fit your requirements.

BNSF1979

Wow Stein, you seriously got more out of that than anything I've put on paper so far! The dual use mainlines I like. Like you said, have to maximize space. The staging under the layout scares me, I've never seen actual pictures of how it's done, and grades just give me the willies!

http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/12241.html :-)

What program did you use to make that design up with, if you don't mind me asking?

 Track plan was drawn by Xtrakcad, which is a freeware track drawing program that can be downloaded from http://www.xtrkcad.org/Wikka/HomePage. Be warned that it takes a while to get used to the user interface.

 Could have been drawn by pretty much any track plan CAD program that allows you to use flex track (or on paper, using a pencil, a compass and a ruler). I just happen to like this program, since I am used to this one.

 - Pick a sensible train length and design your passing sidings, yard size and staging track lengths relative to this.

 OMG, I just realized I made a large error when I posted my Givens, and I have no idea why I said 9x9 when I have 9x12. The 12 feet is on the north/south sides, basically. I bet I was looking at someone's track plan and had it stuck in my head. Whoops!

LOL - fortunate mistake  - it is never any problem to get _more_ room for a layout :-)

 Grin,
 Stein

BNSF1979

I just realized I made a large error when I posted my Givens, and I have no idea why I said 9x9 when I have 9x12. The 12 feet is on the north/south sides, basically. I bet I was looking at someone's track plan and had it stuck in my head.

Downloaded XtrackCad, going to see how it turns out.

Yeah, twice around, double tracked is too much for this space. I thought if I was maybe going to do some sort of upper industrial area in a corner or something, but, like you said, space.

A sensible train length, huh? Hmm. The way I look at it is there are three kinds of trains on my layout; switching trains with at the most five cars, small local freights with the GPs and the SDs, probably 7-10 cars, and the through freights with the Dash 9s are like 12-15 cars. Is that sensible, or too much for this size of layout? Hmm, I guess I would need staging for a 15 car train, huh? Guess I should measure that out....I see what you mean by yard length now.

To the drawing board!

So, after doing some measuring, 3 boxcars are roughly 2 feet of track, so 12 cars is eight feet long! Ouch. That would mean a yard to hold the through freight would have to be an entire side of the layout. Hmm, I gotta think that one through. Is it worth the real estate to model a working yard for the through freights? In my opinion, I think yes, to me, it's part of the fun and the level of realism I'm shooting for.

So now I have to re-read all the stuff about how to construct a yard, AD tracks, yard leads, etc etc, since I haven't retained any of that info at all! Is it feasible to connect a couple industries directly to the yard, or does that not really happen at all?

Thanks!

BNSF1979

So, after doing some measuring, 3 boxcars are roughly 2 feet of track, so 12 cars is eight feet long! Ouch. That would mean a yard to hold the through freight would have to be an entire side of the layout.

 Don't forget that yards come in many sizes and shapes. You don't have to model a large classification  yard. You could e.g. model a junction with a couple of interchange tracks, or an industrial support yard, where cars for nearby industries could be dropped off from a through freight, and resorted by the local switcher (which may also use the main and industry sidings for sorting).

 Btw - train lengths is one of the reasons for why I model cramped city switching in the late 1950s in my 11.5 foot by 6.5 foot room. 40' cars are about 5.5" long in H0 scale. Even an 8 car train looks okay when you can't see much of it any given time.

 Smile,
 Stein

Okay, what exactly does an "industrial support yard" look like? That sounds like exactly what I really want.

BNSF1979

Okay, what exactly does an "industrial support yard" look like? That sounds like exactly what I really want.

 It is an auxiliary/help yard somewhere where you temporarily stow extra cars (loads or empties) and do a little organizing of cars before making local deliveries. Can be as simple as a couple of spare tracks which allows you to put away the cars you pull from the local industries before you set out new cars.

 Mmm - I have a couple of plans around which illustrates the concept. Lemme see - here is one

 The first avenue yard at the bottom right allows you to store a few cars to give you work space while switching. The weird looking thingie at the top is supposed to be a New York Harbor car float.

 Here is a link to a description (w/pictures and sketches) of a BNSF autorack loading yard in Point Richmond, California: http://www.polyweb.com/dans_rr/blog/index.php/archives/62

 Couple of support tracks near the University of Wisconsin's Heating Plant in Madison, WI:

  Here is bigger yard design - based on yard in Burlington, Vermont:

 http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/133413/1498413.aspx#1498413

 Smile,
 Stein

To add a twist to your thinking, take a look at these track plans designed for a 10 x 12 room. I think you'll see that many can be adapted to 9 x 12. Notice too that all of them leave space for a door in  a corner.  

10 x 12 Layout Design Contest

 Wish I had a 9X12

I would go double oval 5X12  --that way you have 2' aisles on both sides of the layout and a decent straightaway of 7 feet

You can run a  outside radius of 28" and an inside of 26'or 24"

So you can use big steam like 4-8-4  or SD size  diesels and it won't look cramped

All your sidings can come off the inner radius  and you can have a crossover to the 28"

Spacemouse, thanks for that link, it's alot of inspiration there for me! I really like the Branch Coal Line, and the Snover and Port Fuller.

 UncleBob, what exactly do you mean by double ovals? Links speak a thousand words to me! I think I have an idea.

Well........you have 32 linear feet to work with..........dedicate 12 for staging and the rest for a scene that your double main passes through with siding and industries. I'd forget about having any kind of "large" sorting yard in that limited area. You could open up your mainline radii to 24" since you'll be wrapping the layout around the room with duckunder entrance. Think about having a swing up/down gate for entrance. Ducking gets tiring real quick. Fitting a semi-active interchange could complicate things but you could have an alternate route that leaves from your stagin and appears as a junction on the layout. My one main suggestion to you...........you can't fit 10 pounds of .... in a 2 pound bag!

Treat your layout as a stage, trains roll in from staging onto the actual "modeled" portion of the layout, do their thing and roll off.

steinjr

Don't forget that yards come in many sizes and shapes. You don't have to model a large classification  yard. You could e.g. model a junction with a couple of interchange tracks, or an industrial support yard, where cars for nearby industries could be dropped off from a through freight, and resorted by the local switcher (which may also use the main and industry sidings for sorting).

Excellent advice here.