BNSF1979 Alrighty, I'm gonna give it a shot. I've got Xtrackcad loaded, will try that first, and if that doesn't work, back to pencil and paper! Thanks for the help.
Alrighty, I'm gonna give it a shot. I've got Xtrackcad loaded, will try that first, and if that doesn't work, back to pencil and paper! Thanks for the help.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I'm thinking it's about time you take a stab at a new design. We can help so you feel like you are going down another wrong path. Take the ideas you like and put them together the best you can. We'll help you tweak them.
buy rr maazines and find a small layout that you like and copy it then expand. it's what me and my dad did. it woked out great so maybe you should try it
It looks like things are progressing well. In terms of designing a layout, it seems sometimes we as modelers can get involved in certain aspects of design, only to carry us away from our original ideas and druthers. Something struck me when I read this exchange.
BNSF1979: Did you keep the grain silo and the outer loop track seperated from the yard so that you have to transfer over to the inner loop before you can drop anything off in the yard to propagate more of a sense of distance travelled?
Yes. And to get cars to the grain elevator they have to come from staging to the yard and then be assigned to a local to go back to the grain elevator. Once again adding operational interest and distance.
Were prototypical operations the reason you wanted to have multiple mainlines? I thought originally, it had to do with your daughter running a throttle while you switch cars. My observation about the above exchange is, that while you'll technically be gathering distance on two separate mainlines, your eye may not really distinguish a difference when the train runs through the same scene twice on tracks that are three inches apart.
In my opinion, distance is created on model railroads when a train runs through a scene only once. Unfortunately, a basement sized layout works best for this. For those of us with less space, a certain amount of imagination must be used, in which case, running multiple laps on a single mainline accomplishes much the same thing as running though the same scene multiple times on different tracks.
On the other hand,if you want your daughter to be able to run a train while you run another, not concerned about coordinating operations to avoid collisions, that's a reason to have multiple mainlines on a smaller layout. Perhaps as you receive feedback and go through this process, your ideas and druthers change as well. Sometimes we have to step back and reevaluate what we are really looking to accomplish.
- Douglas
Wow, neat, I actually could see all that from your design. I'm not all that worried about being very prototypical, even in regards to having being set in Oklahoma.
BNSF1979Did you keep the grain silo and the outer loop track seperated from the yard so that you have to transfer over to the inner loop before you can drop anything off in the yard to propagate more of a sense of distance travelled?
The "lower" industrial area is at a lower level than the yard above it? Is that how you're seeing it?
So the grade raises on the bottom side, maintains around the right and then the top, then comes back down when you exit the yard on the lefthand side?
How many industries could be fit inside the industrial area? 3 or 4 at the outer limits of car storage?
That's a very interesting layout! The fact you managed to fit not only two, but three continuous runs into it, is amazing. I like the staging area alot. I need to find some pics of tracks heading down to staging, as I have very little idea how to do a second level staging area.
I really like the yard, espicially it's functionallity. It looks like it takes care of my and the railroad's needs. Did you keep the grain silo and the outer loop track seperated from the yard so that you have to transfer over to the inner loop before you can drop anything off in the yard to propagate more of a sense of distance travelled? Just trying to understand the design so I can mayhaps not suck so much at it. :)
The "lower" industrial area is at a lower level than the yard above it? Is that how you're seeing it? So the grade raises on the bottom side, maintains around the right and then the top, then comes back down when you exit the yard on the lefthand side? How many industries could be fit inside the industrial area? 3 or 4 at the outer limits of car storage?
Yeah, we've got tons of cement and gravel industry here, there's one in my town. So I can definitly model that with interest.
It's a very interesting design, and it puts alot of things in perspective for me! Thanks!
Here is the one I threw together after expanding to 9x12. Obviously still needs some work. The little "lower" industrial area is not "modern". Still probably some grade issues especially on the left side, but is easily fixable. Hidden area could be made much bigger. Industrial areas easily changed to meet what industries you would want to include. In Oklahoma I figured in addition to the grain elevator a gravel/sand company would be common as would a lumber yard or automobile unloading area.
There are some intentional design elements here I should point out. Yard is small is an industrial staging yard. The lead is the inside "main". The track at the left end is a former caboose track now used for RIP.
The layout is actually three loops. The third loop is the hidden area and a passing track for the outer "main". Notice that to get from staging to the yard one must first circle the outside loop. Likewise coming from the yard one must cross over to and circle the outside loop once before a train can arrive at staging.
There are three separate industrial areas in addition to the national guard station. This makes a reason for the small yard. Take a train from staging. Take it to the yard. Break the cars into separate trains on the tracks for each of the industrial areas. Take returning cars from the yard. Make the train continue on to the other end staging. Using the local loco work each of the "trains" to the industries. Bring the cars back from each industrial area and classify them as to which end of staging they are headed. The local train would have to stay out of the way of other through freights or Amtrak. Should keep one busy for a few hours. Of course one could just throw on three trains and watch them orbit too.
But it was just to give some ideas....
Minimum radius is 22", with the main lines having more than 24", so it should not be a problem to run a 85` scale feet long passenger car on this layout, IMHO.
Sir Madog Leafing thru some old track plans, I found the one you see below. It was designed for a 9´ by 11´ room, but I guess it could be adapted to fit your requirements.
Leafing thru some old track plans, I found the one you see below. It was designed for a 9´ by 11´ room, but I guess it could be adapted to fit your requirements.
steinjrDon't forget that yards come in many sizes and shapes. You don't have to model a large classification yard. You could e.g. model a junction with a couple of interchange tracks, or an industrial support yard, where cars for nearby industries could be dropped off from a through freight, and resorted by the local switcher (which may also use the main and industry sidings for sorting).
Excellent advice here.
Well........you have 32 linear feet to work with..........dedicate 12 for staging and the rest for a scene that your double main passes through with siding and industries. I'd forget about having any kind of "large" sorting yard in that limited area. You could open up your mainline radii to 24" since you'll be wrapping the layout around the room with duckunder entrance. Think about having a swing up/down gate for entrance. Ducking gets tiring real quick. Fitting a semi-active interchange could complicate things but you could have an alternate route that leaves from your stagin and appears as a junction on the layout. My one main suggestion to you...........you can't fit 10 pounds of .... in a 2 pound bag!
Treat your layout as a stage, trains roll in from staging onto the actual "modeled" portion of the layout, do their thing and roll off.
Spacemouse, thanks for that link, it's alot of inspiration there for me! I really like the Branch Coal Line, and the Snover and Port Fuller.
UncleBob, what exactly do you mean by double ovals? Links speak a thousand words to me! I think I have an idea.
Wish I had a 9X12
I would go double oval 5X12 --that way you have 2' aisles on both sides of the layout and a decent straightaway of 7 feet
You can run a outside radius of 28" and an inside of 26'or 24"
So you can use big steam like 4-8-4 or SD size diesels and it won't look cramped
All your sidings can come off the inner radius and you can have a crossover to the 28"
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
To add a twist to your thinking, take a look at these track plans designed for a 10 x 12 room. I think you'll see that many can be adapted to 9 x 12. Notice too that all of them leave space for a door in a corner.
10 x 12 Layout Design Contest
BNSF1979Okay, what exactly does an "industrial support yard" look like? That sounds like exactly what I really want.
Okay, what exactly does an "industrial support yard" look like? That sounds like exactly what I really want.
It is an auxiliary/help yard somewhere where you temporarily stow extra cars (loads or empties) and do a little organizing of cars before making local deliveries. Can be as simple as a couple of spare tracks which allows you to put away the cars you pull from the local industries before you set out new cars.
Mmm - I have a couple of plans around which illustrates the concept. Lemme see - here is one
The first avenue yard at the bottom right allows you to store a few cars to give you work space while switching. The weird looking thingie at the top is supposed to be a New York Harbor car float.
Here is a link to a description (w/pictures and sketches) of a BNSF autorack loading yard in Point Richmond, California: http://www.polyweb.com/dans_rr/blog/index.php/archives/62
Couple of support tracks near the University of Wisconsin's Heating Plant in Madison, WI:
Here is bigger yard design - based on yard in Burlington, Vermont:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/133413/1498413.aspx#1498413
Smile, Stein
BNSF1979So, after doing some measuring, 3 boxcars are roughly 2 feet of track, so 12 cars is eight feet long! Ouch. That would mean a yard to hold the through freight would have to be an entire side of the layout.
Don't forget that yards come in many sizes and shapes. You don't have to model a large classification yard. You could e.g. model a junction with a couple of interchange tracks, or an industrial support yard, where cars for nearby industries could be dropped off from a through freight, and resorted by the local switcher (which may also use the main and industry sidings for sorting).
Btw - train lengths is one of the reasons for why I model cramped city switching in the late 1950s in my 11.5 foot by 6.5 foot room. 40' cars are about 5.5" long in H0 scale. Even an 8 car train looks okay when you can't see much of it any given time.
So, after doing some measuring, 3 boxcars are roughly 2 feet of track, so 12 cars is eight feet long! Ouch. That would mean a yard to hold the through freight would have to be an entire side of the layout. Hmm, I gotta think that one through. Is it worth the real estate to model a working yard for the through freights? In my opinion, I think yes, to me, it's part of the fun and the level of realism I'm shooting for.
So now I have to re-read all the stuff about how to construct a yard, AD tracks, yard leads, etc etc, since I haven't retained any of that info at all! Is it feasible to connect a couple industries directly to the yard, or does that not really happen at all?
Thanks!
Downloaded XtrackCad, going to see how it turns out.
Yeah, twice around, double tracked is too much for this space. I thought if I was maybe going to do some sort of upper industrial area in a corner or something, but, like you said, space.
A sensible train length, huh? Hmm. The way I look at it is there are three kinds of trains on my layout; switching trains with at the most five cars, small local freights with the GPs and the SDs, probably 7-10 cars, and the through freights with the Dash 9s are like 12-15 cars. Is that sensible, or too much for this size of layout? Hmm, I guess I would need staging for a 15 car train, huh? Guess I should measure that out....I see what you mean by yard length now.
To the drawing board!
BNSF1979I just realized I made a large error when I posted my Givens, and I have no idea why I said 9x9 when I have 9x12. The 12 feet is on the north/south sides, basically. I bet I was looking at someone's track plan and had it stuck in my head.
BNSF1979Wow Stein, you seriously got more out of that than anything I've put on paper so far! The dual use mainlines I like. Like you said, have to maximize space. The staging under the layout scares me, I've never seen actual pictures of how it's done, and grades just give me the willies!
Wow Stein, you seriously got more out of that than anything I've put on paper so far! The dual use mainlines I like. Like you said, have to maximize space. The staging under the layout scares me, I've never seen actual pictures of how it's done, and grades just give me the willies!
http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/12241.html :-)
What program did you use to make that design up with, if you don't mind me asking?
Track plan was drawn by Xtrakcad, which is a freeware track drawing program that can be downloaded from http://www.xtrkcad.org/Wikka/HomePage. Be warned that it takes a while to get used to the user interface.
Could have been drawn by pretty much any track plan CAD program that allows you to use flex track (or on paper, using a pencil, a compass and a ruler). I just happen to like this program, since I am used to this one.
- Pick a sensible train length and design your passing sidings, yard size and staging track lengths relative to this.
OMG, I just realized I made a large error when I posted my Givens, and I have no idea why I said 9x9 when I have 9x12. The 12 feet is on the north/south sides, basically. I bet I was looking at someone's track plan and had it stuck in my head. Whoops!
LOL - fortunate mistake - it is never any problem to get _more_ room for a layout :-)
Grin, Stein
Wow, lots of responses, thanks everyone!
Mobilman, I guess I will give Ebay a looksee, I was out and about today and managed to stop into a hobby store, and he didn't have any track plan books! Curses! After alot of these responses, it looks like alot more paper or throwing down some track and seeing how it goes is in order.
Ulrich, I sure hear you about accepting what we can do as opposed to what we'd want to do. I started with a whole room layout, and it's been basically cut in half due to the other power in the house not liking the idea of all the space given over to the layout. I was trying to figure out my scanner, maybe I can get a pic of the room on here. All help and ideas appreciated!
John Colley, I had seen the LDE in this last years Track Planning issue, and I bet it could be of great use, seeing as how nothing could be better inspiration than the real thing! Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this from home? I plan on heading to the yard in these parts sometime, but is there a better way? I was thinking maybe a Google Earth search or something of that nature. I did a search for prototype track plans, but I came up kind of empty, it seems people keep those pretty close to the vest when they get them!
Paul, it will probably come to that at some point when I get the benchwork together and some styrofoam down, I bet it will help planning along alot. My problem is I turn it into a spaghetti bowl, and try to place track everywhere there is space!
Fred, I like the scene planning idea, maybe that will help me keep the sprawl down to a minimum, great idea. I hadn't looked at layout design like that. As for the yard, I'm not really wanting something huge, but, as was pointed out, on this size of a layout it ends up taking alot of real estate, so if I could incorporate it into an industrial siding area, kill two birds with one stone, as it were, that would be something I would shoot for. I just really want a place to stop and start, maybe I need a staging leg that has it's tracks head into a yard, so I have the length, but also the practicality.
Texas Zephyr, did I seriously forget to put HO in there somewhere? I guess I was so caught up actually getting to ask for help somewhere people actually try to help!
Wow Stein, you seriously got more out of that than anything I've put on paper so far! The dual use mainlines I like. Like you said, have to maximize space. The staging under the layout scares me, I've never seen actual pictures of how it's done, and grades just give me the willies! What program did you use to make that design up with, if you don't mind me asking?
Mike, I kind of always envisioned the yard ending at the layout edge, disappearing under an overpass, with a mirror backing it. There's another staging yard under the layout idea! I've got a couple cats, too, I wonder if they like to eat trains.....
Doughless, I would love to try a river out, but am concerned about the real estate it would eat up on a layout of this size. Building a few bridges and the river scenery would be alot of fun for me, and it would be a great scene. I guess I could count that as one of my five?
Thanks guys, keep the ideas coming, all these suggestions are really making me think! And maybe I can get a scanner working, or scare up a computer program that I can actually use, and throw down some plans so you can tear them apart!
I too wanted to build a small around the room and looked at many designs and did a lot of my own scetches but in the end abandoned the idea as I only had an 8x9 space. I found from the 4x8 I built(different room) that what looks good on a track plan in reality is likely not workable as in too much track for the space. You need room for buildings, roads, scenery, etc.
Having said that however I think that Stein's layout is one of the best I have seen and if I had a little more space I think I would just steal his plan.
The HOG already mentioned is I think also a good one. I too once liked the idea of double track but found that the space was just too small.
So instead, while working on my existing HO, I'm gathering the bits for an N scale layout, again in the 8x9 space but this time I can just do 2 walls without having to go all around.
Good Luck,
CN Charlie
Good comments by all. Stein's plan is a good start. With a layout that size, it might be difficult to have a lot of different scenes.
I like the idea of the west wall being a stub yard and combining that with the city scene and maybe some switching of building flats. Refering to the spcae like a clock, I would start the lead at about 8 oclock with a curved switch. At about 11 oclock, I would have a river. The river would be a natural scene separator and would give the yard a reason to be tucked into a tight space, in otherwise rather wide open Oklahoma. 12 oclock through 6 oclock could be more rural with a junction and grain elevator placed there. Also, next to the grain elevator, you could actually have another industry that might be served by another railroad that shares trackage rights with your BNSF, and could operate on one of the two BNSF mains.
Stein is on the right track. I designed several layouts for a small bedroom. I think you should begin with the largest "want"--that is the yard for classifying cars to make up and break down trains. I suggest making a stub-ended yard with the end of the yard in one of the corners of the room and the yard ladder, or throat toward the adjacent corner of the room. That is, one wall is basically occupied by the yard. You can disguise the end of the yard if you wish with an overpass for instance. After that, you may want a grain elevator and it's siding(s) along another wall...and so on.
I would recommend using at least 24 inch radius curves. Although your tangent trackage will be shorter, I firmly believe you would be much happier with the more moderate curves. The look of larger engines and cars rounding 18 inch radius curves may not be appealing to you. I would also design a staging yard beneath the layout. You can either have trains get there by running down a gradual decline, or use some type of hidden elevator or ramp (I use one that's 8 feet long that limits the length of my trains, but you could decide for yourself your train lengths).
Good luck.
Mike
Here is a sketch to get the discussion flowing - it is not a solution optimized for your layout, but maybe it will give you some ideas.
Basic shape is from Scott Perry's HOG (Heart Of Georgia) "better beginner layout" - ie donut shaped, with operators in center cockpit, wide curves - at least 26" radius, two longish (for the room) passing sidings in the two corners diagonally across from each other, industry sidings out towards the edges.
Another idea is from Byron Henderson's Alameda layout - using the same piece of track for multiple different purposes at the same time instead of having a lot of dedicated tracks - which we don't have room for.
Let's grab an idea from Ulrich (Sir Madog) - mainline on raised embankment through the landscape. Allows you to have a road underpass under the railroad.
Not too many scenes - a bedroom sized H0 scale single level layout can do maybe three or four scenes, not much more. Not a huge amount of switching - this is mainly a railfanning layout, with room for meets and overtakes of trains consisting of up to a max of about fifteen 60-foot cars.
Let's try to fit in a couple of tracks of staging below the layout, and a not too insanely steep track down to staging, which at the same time allows foreign power to run from staging into the city, drop off cars at the yard, pick up new cars and go back to staging.
Layout can be in one of these modes:
- Two kids racing each other on parallel loops, no room for switching while this goes on - Mainline running by one or two people, doing meets and overtakes using the "sidings" formed by the crossovers. - Local switching by one person, using the city and the yard (not really work room for two people in the lower right hand corner)
Suggestions, comments, new ideas ?