Roundhouses and Turntables (and transfer tables)

In the process of looking at the reference to the Railroadforums thread to find Norden, I found two turntables; at Lowville, and Croghan, NY.
 
The references to the Troy, NY, D&H Colonie yard sure pinpointed the location of the turntable and roundhouse.
 
Very good eye Zwingle!... we now have an Alaska site: McCarthy, AK
 
As for some of the references being repeated from other lists.  I am kind of wondering if some of the other lists were just listing structures that were built in a circular or semicircular shape, and not specifically as "Roundhouses" to be used by railroads.
 
And as for "errors" from anyone... ha, I can't complain at all... I keep finding sillies in my list that I have to correct; misspelled city names, wrong states! (those bother me!).  Witness, that I had to fix Clifton Forge, VA (again!).  And the Mt. Carmel with a roundhouse is the one in Illinois, not Indiana, so I have corrected that just recently and issue this apology to the residents of both states.

Not only that, but I have not been very consistent in my descriptions of some of the sites (that info has not been posted here, but is in both my Google Earth KMZ file and the Excel spreadsheet that will be published eventually).  I am trying to come up with a consistent nomenclature to describe the sites in addition to just saying that there was a Turntable or Roundhouse... such as "Working", "Re-purposed", "Relic", "Outline" or "Footprint", or "None", for describing the roundhouse; and something similar for the Turntable: "Working", "Overgrown", "Pit", "Outline", "Track Fan", or "None".

But then I never know how to list a site where there used to be a nearly full circle of a roundhouse, but is now a small square building with a switch where the turntable used to be.  Several places I have listed a site as being actively in use, but I sometimes go back to check something and discover the site is now a residential neighborhood, a shopping mall parking lot or an Interstate cloverleaf intersection, and there is no evidence there was ever a RR for miles around.

Also, I try to make the Lat/Lon of the site to be the center of the turntable, but I have found that Google Earth does not always get the various year's Historical images registered to the same place, and the middle of the turntable "moves".  A turntable can be pinpointed to a certain Lat/Lon and in an image from another date will show the turntable in a different place, sometimes by as far as the diameter of the turntable or more.  My method also does not indicate in which direction the roundhouse was situated from the turntable.
 
I am keeping a copy of my master files on a web site so at least there is a backup that is not where my main PC is... just in case!

Here are the latest additions:

The thing that bothered me about Troy, was that on the Trains list they show it as B&M rather than D&H.  I didn't think they were referring to the old D&H Colonie shops.  I followed the former B&M north from the union depot area and saw this interesting building along the former ROW at

 42°44'43.22"N,  73°40'49.95"W

Mike:  Most interesting.  On Google Earth there is a Places marker near the building labeled Troy Tool & Engineering Inc.  And over that long building to the south is another marker that is labeled, Troy Boiler Works Inc.

Switching to Street View (there are views of the building from 3 streets) the back of the building looks very much like a RR roundhouse, but the front of the building appears to be new construction and so does not look much like a RR roundhouse.

I think I will be adding that site to my list.  The evidence is pretty good.

Oh, yeah - you're on solid ground [pun ?] with this one.  Check out the photos and comments at the bottom of this webpage: 

 http://northeastfoto.com/forums/showthread.php?4092-B-amp-M-Roundhouse-Troy-NY-06-30-2006&s=3952b759a9eab5b708988ee559419f99 

And/ or, do a Google search for:  "B&M + turntable + Troy", and then just pick whatever looks good or of interest.

Before I started looking, I was wondering if it would be the one a little further north at the now-defunct Mechanicville Yard, where the B&M and D&H interchanged trains "back .  See N 42.90785 W 73.70022 (per ACME Mapper 2.0) in its "Topo" button view - now just west of a street cul-de-sac, but east of what look like radial concrete lines, and north of 3 baseball diamonds, etc.  Is that one in your list yet ? 

Finally, at Alburtis, PA, there's a small one that was either ex-Reading RR (East Pennsylvania RR, and/ or Catasauqua & Fogelsville RR), or possibly the Lock Ridge Iron Furnace's line, at about these coordinates (also per AMCME Mapper 2.0): N 40.51243 W 75.60117  It's long gone and is hard to find documentation of it - but about 3 months ago I saw a Valuation Map circa 1917 that shows it.  Unfortunately, that Val Map is pretty large both physically and as a PDF or TIFF file (about 2 MB), so I'll have to find a way to find it again, then snip a portion out of it, and then scan and post it somehow.  Alternatively, if you contact me off-list via a PM/ "Conversation", I could e-mail the file to you - let me know either way. 

This link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catasauqua_and_Fogelsville_Railroad - also says there was yet another turntable a few miles south at the end of the line at Rittenhouse Gap - first I've heard or read of that one !  It would have been about here: N 40.46776 W 75.62967  I'll have to research that one further, too. 

- Paul North.  

When I was a teenager in the early 60s we lived in the northern suburbs of New York.  Riding northbound trains on NYC's Harlem Division thru the North White Plains yard, you could look down the diesel engine terminal lead to the turntable.  At the time this was where the 3rd rail ended, and the engines were changed from electric to diesel.  The following link shows a 1965 pix of the roundhouse being demolished while a diesel is being turned on the turntable.  The view is to the west toward the electric shops.  The turntable probably lasted until at least 1984 when electrification was extended to Brewster.

http://sbiii.com/wkoch-rr/NYCRoundhouseDemolitionatNoWhitePlains8-65.jpg

Brewster also had TT & RH, but I didn't get to ride there until decades later.  According to a local historical website, they were demolished in 1952 upon dieselization.  There was a "why" available with a long stem (a remnant of the Putnam Division) that could have been used to turn trains.

Old topo maps show TT&RH.

N.White Plains  http://historical.mytopo.com/getImage.asp?fname=wtpl38se.jpg&state=NY

Brewster  http://historical.mytopo.com/getImage.asp?fname=brws46sw.jpg&state=NY

The above sites are listed as easy references.  However, to pinpoint the locations I used a recently expanded site at   http://nationalmap.gov/

It is put out by the agency that publishes the USGS topo maps.  It has a map viewer (when you get there, check the overlay layer "Scanned Topo Maps").  It also has a comprehensive and growing collection of historic topo maps.  They are about half done scanning all old topo maps, and they're all available as free downloads.  There you will also find a link to a useful GIS toolbar called TerraGo, which is also a free download.  I used these to get the coordinates and to double check against measurements from offsetting street intersections.

Brewster, NY       41°24'27.02"N 73°37'21.96"W     NYC    TT&RH, dism

N. White Plains, NY    41°3'20.61"N, 73°46'13.66"W    NYC    TT&RH, dism

Thanks Mike.  Good research.  I triangulated the North White Plains the tiniest bit farther north, but I'll defer to your Lat/Lon.

However...   Google Earth  shows a vague outline of the roundhouse at Brewster in the historical images that is further north of your coordinates.

Here are the latest additions.

That makes 612 in the U.S.A and 169 outside the U.S.A.,    781 total.

"The following is a layout of an actual branchline terminal that existed until the 1960s.
In Chatham, NY, where the NYC Harlem Division terminated at the Boston & Albany mainline, there was a turntable for turning Harlem engines and a small roundhouse for minor maintenance. There were also two interchange tracks that ran either side of the turntable and roundhouse, but also used to wye Harlem trains. One leg allowed Harlem trains to go east into Massachusetts, and the other leg allowed NYC Hudson Division trains from the west to reach New York City in case there had been a wreck on the Hudson.
So what you had was a wye with a small engine terminal in the middle, a good use of cramped space."

MidlandMike

I had noticed the outline of the old Brewster RH, and I have no problem with the marker being moved closer to a visible remnant as opposed to an inferred TT location.

I also researched other locations on the Harlem Division.  Apparently Pawling once has a TT, but I could only find the replacement wye on the old topo maps.  I had better luck with Chatham at the end of the line.  Chatham 7.5 minute quad (1953) can be downloaded from the Historical Collection at http://nationalmap.gov/  There was a TT without obvious RH inside of the wye.  This seemed like overkill in the turning department, however, I found some answers in a 

TrainBoard forum entitled "What defines an Engine Facility?":

"The following is a layout of an actual branchline terminal that existed until the 1960s.
In Chatham, NY, where the NYC Harlem Division terminated at the Boston & Albany mainline, there was a turntable for turning Harlem engines and a small roundhouse for minor maintenance. There were also two interchange tracks that ran either side of the turntable and roundhouse, but also used to wye Harlem trains. One leg allowed Harlem trains to go east into Massachusetts, and the other leg allowed NYC Hudson Division trains from the west to reach New York City in case there had been a wreck on the Hudson.
So what you had was a wye with a small engine terminal in the middle, a good use of cramped space."

I put the location as the center of a vague circular outline in the 1994 view on Google Earth, as it seemed to coincide closely with the map:

Chatham, NY      42°21'34.59"N 73°35'59.80"W     NYC     TT & small enginehouse, dism.

My location differs slightly from the one on  http://gold.mylargescale.com/scottychaos/Roundhouses/index.html   I would not be surprised if there were additional facilities at the Rutland RR terminal across the B&A tracks, but it was abandoned just before map publication.

WOW!  Scotty's list will keep me busy for weeks!  I may contact him to see if he has done similar for other states.

The 3 states I'm most familiar with all have roundhouse lists.  NY and Michigan have been previously mentioned.  Colorado has a site (make sure your Google Earth is already on)

http://www.railfanrails.com/maps/colorado_rhdlf.html

I imagine most states have a site.  I also found an interesting site that waymarks about 90 RH&TT around the world.

http://www.waymarking.com/cat/details.aspx?f=1&guid=95611418-b408-4bea-8425-3f97d2922c19&st=2

Happy hunting.

Here are a couple of more southern NY locations:

Maybrook, NY     41°29'34.30"N 74°12'26.90"W     NH     TT&RH, dism, RH footprint

Warwick, NY     41.2518,-74.3732      L&HR     TT&RH, dism, RH footprint

The Maybrook location was not on the NY website.  The Warwick location was on the site but listed as TT only.  On Google Earth for both locations you can see the radial footprint of the RHs.

Didn't look to see if this one is on the list yet, but here it is anyway:

Bowdoin, Montana - ex-GN: The turntable pit is at these Lat./ Long. coords. (per ACME Mapper 2.0): N 48.39673 W 107.59821

Per a post here by Buxtehude earlier today re: "The Ghost Yard in Montana" at:  http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/198826/2171693.aspx#2171693

- Paul North. 

In San Antonio, TX Greenbrier Rail Services built a repair facility on the former Kelly Air Force Base in what is now known as the Rail Port part of Port San Antonio. It includes a transfer table used to move cars between a series of parallel storage tracks on the west side and a covered work area on the east as well as the lead tracks along the south side. Looking at Google it may be hard to identify at first because the actual transfer track is hidden under a covered work platform due to the photo angle. The coordinates are:29º 22"28.47'N  98º 32" 56.92' W.

In Albuquerque, NM there is a transfer table just north of the turntable you have on your original post for NM. It is between the two large workshop buildings and again hidden in the shadows on the Google view. It was built as part of the major steam maintenance facility AT&SF had there. It is now owned by the City of Albuquerque as part of the future Wheels Museum project. Coordinates:35º 4" 30.57"  106º 39" 0.15'

Here are three more from Colorado

Segundo, CO     37° 7'16.39"N 104°43'42.69"W     C&W     TT&RH footprint

Trinidad, CO     37°10'51.20"N 104°29'48.13"W     C&S     TT&RH, dism, RH footprint

Trinidad, CO     37°10'28.68"N 104°30'21.72"W     AT&SF    TT&RH, dism

Traces of the first two can be seen on Google Earth.  The last one was pinpointed from the Trinidad (West) 7 1/2 minute topo map 1951 edition.  The site is partly covered by the I-25 interstate.

Here's one you can't see on the satellite images, but it's definitely still there - former Lackawanna, Utica, NY:

N 43.10769 W 75.24242

Here's a pit that is no longer active (although there are those who would like to restore it - Remsen, NY:

N 43.33105 W 75.18574

For NY, you might want to check here.  Should keep you busy for a while...

The Long Island Rail Road facility at Jamaica was (and still is, I believe) called the Morris Park yard. 

Try St. Thomas Ontario where there is a transfer table at the east end of the Michigan Central shop, Fort Erie, Ontario, Stratford Ontario whee CN had a shop and possibly Palmerston Ontario where again there was a shop. Also head up north to North Bay, Sault St. Marie, and Cochcrane Ontario.

I don't know if you've looked in Kingston Ontario or Ottawa Ontario, but I'm sure there are/were tables of one sort or another. Possibly something in Brockville Ontario. Maybe Sudbury as well up north of Lake Huron east of north Bay. Lots of transcon stuff up that way. Cochrane has east/west lines and also the ONR line up to James Bay and Moosenee. Maybe Churchill Manitoba on Hudson Bay. Sorry I don't have the gps stuff you guys do. All I have to say is this is a marvelous endeavour by all who have contributed. Many thanks!

You ask about a Waverly, MI. The rail yard just north of Holland, MI has been called Waverly Yard for as long as I can remember. It is located south of Lakewood Blvd. and west of 120th Avenue and west of US-31. 

Wow, I had no idea this conversation was taking place out here.  Just about the time this conversations started, I had, on my own, started to put together a database of exactly what you are talking about, with the only addition of coaling towers thrown in.  The most prized jewel is finding locations where 1. there's a roundhouse ( maybe even in use) 2. the turntable is intact, and 3. there's a coaling tower still standing.  Believe it or not there are several locations like this. 

I was limiting myself to North America.

I had stopped working the database, simply because lack of time, but I may start it up again...

Ideally, but quite unrealistically, I would like to see some more preservation efforts.  There are a lot of these structures that we are losing, and who has money these days?  Fortunately there are some that are preserved. 

Thanks for this effort.

Joe

Sorry, been busy with some other fun stuff and haven't been keeping up with the suggested additions.

Here are some new ones, some I found by accident when looking for something else and some from the suggestions in this thread.

Non-U.S.:

U.S.A.:

I know there are lots more to look for from the suggestions here, and I will get to them as I can.  If anyone wants to undertake some research on their own, please do.  If you want to pick a state or country and do an indepth search, post here what you are doing so there is less duplication of effort and then have some fun searching.

And again, I plead, if you know where one was and want to suggest it, a bit more information would greatly help those of us that are doing the searching for the exact locations; street names, compass directions from a landmark... something else to go by more than just a general city name.

Feel free to load Google Earth on your computer (its real easy!) and search for yourself, You'd be surprized how much time can elapse while you are finding a whole lot more than just RR stuff.  It is a form of tourism, only bested by traveling to the cities and other locations in person.  There is lots of stuff to see and even more fun to try to figure out what some of the things are (the unusual view from above can make some things quite unrecognizable!).  Yahoo and Bing (and I think there are others) that also have aerial views of the earth, so use them if you are a mind to.  If you have a problem getting started, ask questions here, I am sure those of us that do it all the time can help you get into the fun.

I have some cleaning to do to my spreadsheet and the Google Earth KML file.  After I am done with that I will post them on the web and provide a link here... soon, I promise.

Question:  Does anyone know of a program that can copy the KML file to a spreadsheet AND back so I can do some mass edits to the KML file?  Doing them all one at a time is quite boring and tedious.

Thanks for posting these. I saw the listing for Vancouver, BC and since I was going there for Thanksgiving weekend I took a look on Google earth and saw that it was about 10 blocks from my hotel and was able to convince my wife to wander that way on one of our walks. Nice preservation as a pedestrian plaza.

The new Trains (Jan) has an article on Missoula, MT with a map indicating a turntable.  I didn't see it on the original list.  Google Earth shows the turntable still there, plus the footprint of a former roundhouse.

Missoula, MT      46°52'32.93"N 113°59'25.03"W     MRL (NP)     TT&RH     TT exists, RH footprint

Here are a few more.

El Portal, CA - turntable - Yosemite Valley RR - formerly the Bagby turntable

Virginia City, NV - turntable pit - here's a reconstructed 1938 view.

Sanoma, CA - turntable/roundhouse for the tourist 1/4 scale TrainTown Railroad.

So I had been building a list of my own before I found this thread. 

I've actually been placing markers in a Google map. You can find the link to the map here, it also has a brief explanation of what each pin signifies. http://vjande.com/maps/ 

I've copied a lot of the locations from the original posters list and did find one that they can eliminate now. 

IL, Joliet  88° 3'29.95"W, 41°32'10.58"N 

If you follow this link ( http://www.ejearchive.com/images_maps_65/joliet.jpg ) you will see a map of the old EJ&E yard and there was a Roundhouse in the list already, bu the long & lat above are for the entrance to the blacksmith shop.

Cheers,
Vincent

http://www.VJandE.com 

Xerxes1138

I've copied a lot of the locations from the original posters list and did find one that they can eliminate now. 

IL, Joliet  88° 3'29.95"W, 41°32'10.58"N 

Those coordinates are correct. There were two nearly adjacent EJ&E roundhouses in Joliet. The smaller southern roundhouse was torn down long ago. While there may have been a blacksmith shop there later, the footprint from that roundhouse is still visible today, which is why it's included on the list.

This aerial photo from 1938 clearly shows both EJ&E roundhouses.

Looking around the old photo I posted, I see an apparent Rock Island roundhouse between the EJ&E diamonds and the AT&SF diamonds. The filled pit remains. That should make four so far from Joliet on the master list.

In California, the Caspar, South fork and Eastern Railroad had at least two 50' turntables. After 1910 the railroad constructed wyes to handle larger locomotives, but the Caspar turntable was never taken up, and remains today in a filled pit, part of the Caspar Headlands state park. The turntable at Camp 20, (Dunlop) was removed years ago, but the filled pit remains almost next to the old machine shop, which is still standing, but in a state of decay.

In 1921, the Hawaii Consolidated Railroad built an eight-stall roundhouse in Hilo, which still stands, but is currently listed on the Hawaii Most Endangered historic sites list.

Just ran across this: All-Time New York State Roundhouse & Turntable List. It's huge.

I have added some more:

that makes 637 in the U.S.

I uploaded the Google Earth native (".KMZ") files to a web site I use for storing photos, but when I tried to access them, they were "not found"!  Seems the web site is oriented to certain file types and ".KMZ" ain't one of them!

I renamed them to have a ".TXT" extension (instead of ",KMZ") and then could find and download them (to another computer) but they came as compressed (".ZIP") files, which, when expanded, became a file named "DOC.KML".  That file I could open in Google Earth and it created a new folder in the "Temporary Places" folder and in that folder was a folder with a double dot extension of "..KMZ" and in that folder was the one I had uploaded!  Which I can then "click and drag" out of the Temporary Places folder to be a folder unto itself in the whole list.  YEOUTCH what a convoluted mess.

I will try to clean that up a bit before I post the links here.

It's been fun digging around the west and other places to find who knows what.  I have a few new ones for you that I couldn't find on any of your postings,

Portsmouth, NH     Tt/Rh   @  43 4.4177N X 46 1.72W

Sherman Hill, WY     Tt/Rh   @  41 7.986N X 105 23.814W  (Historic Site)  This is a helper station along the original Sherman Hill grade and is located just feet N of the Ames monument.

Segundo, CO     Tt/Rh    @ 37 7.277N X 104 43.709W

Trinidad, CO     Rh    @ 37 10.85N X 104 29.788W

Raton, NM     Rh/Tt   @  36 54.181N X 104 26.175W

Las Vegas, NM     @ 35 35.213N X 105 12.951W

Cheyenne, WY     @ 41 8.190N X 104 50.086W

Another Curious Category -- RR Ferry loading points

Richmond Point, CA     @   37 54.56N X 122 23.429W

San Francisco, CA     @   37 46.265N X 122 23.138W