MTH HO Cab Forward is DCS

Dante...

I guess I don't understand your objection.

While MTH has made the decision to offer the DCS capability in their products, I don't know that I'd want to change how the locomotive functions anyway- their steam locomotives are just about the finest, smooth-running products out there for the money.

I haven't found it necessary to make any changes to any of my personal MTH locomotives. But if I did, I can place mine on the trrack and using the MTH wireless controller, make any sound or motor changes i would want.

I've been using DCC now for years and while I don't agree with Mike Wolf's decision to employ only the preprietory protosound 3.0 without an option to override it with a conventional decoder, The fact is the locomotives operate and sound absolutely awsome - right out of the box. Thus, I'm a happy camper.

And just judging by the number of these that sell-out in just days or a few weeks after arriving, I'd say that the majority of buyers are very impressed and pleased with the purchase.

The good news is that MTH is learning this fast about HO buyers and they are LISTENING. The SD70ACe diesel that has flown off the shelves of stores all over the world, is now going to be offered with NMRA- compliant 8-pin capability, so those who do not want sound but desire DCC capability or prefer to add their own sound - can now enjoy this fabulous model.

It may not be long before we see that in the steamers too.

Another thing I like about the Protosound 3.0 is the capability of updating soundfiles right from your PC -free... as newer and updated soundfiles/functions become available. You can't do that with just anyone's product.

Mike may not want to admit it, but he's adapting to the HO market - there's no question: MTH is in HO for the long haul and is bringing the HO modeler some pretty awsome locomotives and now - passenger cars.

There's a lot of Wolf-bashers out there for what ever reason -it dosen't fly with me.... I'm a believer.

With the new HO scale UP Baby-Turbines, the Union Pacific Big Boy, the ALCO FA/FB-1s and ALCO PA/PB-1s, the EMD F-7 A/B Warbonnets and 'Yellow' Bonnets, as well as a ton of other road offerings, and a plethra of detailed and DCC controled LED lighted passenger cars coming( I just got my first SP Daylight coach today) that have just been announced for THIS YEAR, I'm excited about what this company is doing and it is having a good affect on the hobby, IMHO.

I hope you will enjoy the Cab Forward, it is a very well detailed model and allthough I didn't buy any of these, my experience with the Intermountain AC really left me cold -if I was going for an AC, it'd be the MTH.

HeritageFleet1 

 Thanks for the update Dante

Looks like they're slow coming up to speed with DCC. It's a shame they don't offer DCC users the ability to at least adjust the individual sounds and add consisting.  It really can't be that hard for them to implement.  Of course most steamers aren't consisted but the sounds are a big deal.

 I was just reading their 2010 catalog.  Those F units they have coming and also the big boy look like beauties. Looks *** they decided to hold onto their DCS and want you to buy a DCS commander to hook up to your DCC system.  What a bunch of crapola.  Looks like something from the 80's.  I wish they'd get off their high horse already and stop trying to push their BS on us.  I'm just glad we have several other manufacturers that offer what we're looking for.

ALL...

Actually, you don't need to buy the DCS Commander at all.  I have the wireless control system to program and interface with the PC software, and to access sound files in Protosound 3.0.

I just use an ordinary ol' Digitrax 402D or a DT400 and I can access all the functions the locomotive offers. Just plug in to the loconet, address the engine and off you go.

 I've already orderd my Big Boys and am getting rid of the BLI BlueLine one I have because I know they will be a plesant improvement over the BLI. Even the tender markers are lighted.

The F units are wearing me out already - I'll reserve judgement on those until I actually see one.

Those Alco PA's and FA's are what have got me licking my chops - the 16 bit full digital Protosound 3.0 is going to be awsome on these!

Ditto on the Turbines.

HeritageFleet1

Hi... hold on... they're working on it - it must be very hard for Mike Wolfe to succumb to the mass HO market pressure! - but, they are listening and I think in the near future, things will improve in regard to the DCC accessability.

I spoke with Jeff at MTH a few times about this and he explained that they are aware of the high demand for having accessability to the CV's. It will be possible for them to create a firmware update that can be flashed right to the locomotive from your PC, allowing more CV's to be user-adjustable. It'll be coming -they already have a DCC version of the 70ACe due out in August...the Firmware update will require an interface (T.I.U.) to program though, but, you'd need a inteface with anyone else's program anyway.

HeritageFleet1

Heritagefleet1

I've already orderd my Big Boys and am getting rid of the BLI BlueLine one I have because I know they will be a plesant improvement over the BLI. Even the tender markers are lighted.

I thought the Blue Line one had lit markers on the tender as well? Or are they reflective jewels?

The MTH big boy is intriguing, I like the fact that it is all metal. However the Athearn weathered big boy is a beauty too and less expensive.

What don't you like about your blue line?

Heritagefleet1

Mike may not want to admit it, but he's adapting to the HO market - there's no question: MTH is in HO for the long haul and is bringing the HO modeler some pretty awsome locomotives and now - passenger cars.

There's a lot of Wolf-bashers out there for what ever reason -it dosen't fly with me.... I'm a believer.

Well, I've been accused of being a Wolf-basher from time to time. And, if no one had spoken up I wounder if we would have ever seen the ONE DC/DCC ready offering that Mike has made? Way out of my era so no use to me.

My objections are simple. I do not question the build quality or running qualities of MTH locos, they are top notch.

As a non sound, non DCC user, I question the DC performance of MTH locos. I have seen first hand the limitations - they are not acceptable to me.

If Mike Wolf only wants to sell trains to those interested in sound/smoke/station announcements/etc, that's fine. But the "spin" that they work just fine on DC is just that - spin. As is the spin about their DCC peformance/features - spin, as the OP suggested.

I do have other reservations as well. While the detail on many of the models is nice, there seems to be a little of the "mold it on" or "leave it off" thinking, likely to make them more "handeling friendly". Not a choice I would make for those prices.

To be fair, I pick on BLI/PCM for some of these same reasons - they don't seem to know who they want to sell trains to, one minute they are offering both stealth and DCC/sound, than DC/sound and now mainly back to only offering products to the same customers MTH is going after.

And, regardless of brand, I am one of those who complain about everyone making the same models rather than offering something that has not been done - like a 4-6-2 that is NOT a PRR K4.

Many of the upcomming releases from MTH are the old BLI/PCM tooling from law suit settlement #???, and that's fine, they all are fairly good models. But in reviewing the MTH catalog on these items, I see no DC/DCC ready versions, no unlettered/undecorated versions, very limited roadname offerings for locos owned by dozens of railroads.

There is simply nothing for me to get excited about - nothing there I need or want for my layout, nothing I am going to pay those kind of prices for just to then remove the sound/DCS/DCC stuff.

So once again, not bashing, just stating - MTH is obviously not interested in my money, or the money of lots of modelers I know, based on the marketing choices they have made.

Maybe they are selling a lot of them, I have no way to know. Like Athearn, Intermountian, Bowser and list of others, they are a privately held company and as such their sales numbers are private.

But, among the 30 or so modelers that I know, associate with and see in person on a regular basis, there are exactly 2 MTH HO locomotives. And, unlike me, most of these guys use DCC and like sound.

In the interest of full discloure, for those who don't know, I'm not a model train collector, virtually every piece of model train equipment I own fits my layout theme. Name a bunch of those "famous" locos, I likely don't own any of them. I spend a fair amount on this hobby, but I do have some personal ideas about "value". I don't/have not ever really owned/purchased/traded/collected/invested or other wise dabbled in brass. I don't have a display case in the layout room (or anywhere else in the house) full of shelf queens, all the trains are on the layout.

While I have no problem with how others persue the hobby, I have little interest in what I see as a new version of Highrail collecting/casual operating in HO - a group who seem to be the main market for MTH, BLI and even some products from many others. And that if modelers with a more focused approach happen to find these products useful, well that is just a bonus.

And again, that's fine MTH and BLI have every right to define their customer base and target it as they see fit. Obviously so far it does not include me. 

And I will keep an open mind waiting for undecorated versions in DC, or C&O 2-8-4's with the correct sand box placement, or something that I actually need for my layout, that will actually work on my layout.

So the score is still:

Proto2000 50+

Bachmann 30+

Athearn/Intermountain and others 30+

BLI/PCM 9

MTH 0

But what do I know...... 

Sheldon

Heritagefleet1

Hi... hold on... they're working on it - it must be very hard for Mike Wolfe to succumb to the mass HO market pressure! - but, they are listening and I think in the near future, things will improve in regard to the DCC accessability.

Why? Because he thought he could "remake" the hobby in his image?

That's the part he did not get from the beginning - the HO hobby, no matter your level/type of interest, has long been based on INTERCHANGEABILTY, be it DCC or DC - something not really present or needed in the highrail market Mike comes from - because of the largely DIFFERENT kind of customer with a different kind of interest.

Still waiting to see if MTH wants to sell me model trains.

Sheldon

Heritagefleet1

Hi... hold on... they're working on it - it must be very hard for Mike Wolfe to succumb to the mass HO market pressure! - but, they are listening and I think in the near future, things will improve in regard to the DCC accessability.

I spoke with Jeff at MTH a few times about this and he explained that they are aware of the high demand for having accessability to the CV's. It will be possible for them to create a firmware update that can be flashed right to the locomotive from your PC, allowing more CV's to be user-adjustable. It'll be coming -they already have a DCC version of the 70ACe due out in August...the Firmware update will require an interface (T.I.U.) to program though, but, you'd need a inteface with anyone else's program anyway.

HeritageFleet1

Hi Heritage,

I don't know who mike wolf is but I can tell you this.  When MTH was telling people that there would be a free upgrade for the SD70Ace's they were obviously lying through their teeth.  It's been how long now and not a whisper of it.  If you go back in the threads when the SD70 was released you'll see several references to it.  MTH has a quality product IMO but lying to the customer to get sales is no way to keep them.

Here's a thread from when I was converting one early in the year. There was reverence to the "Free Upgrade" then by a couple of people throughout the thread:

http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/166270/1827972.aspx#1827972

Hamltnblue

I don't know who mike wolf is.......

Mike Wolf is MTH. MTH = Mikes Train House. He is the owner, #1 man, head honcho, the buck stops here, go to guy.

Sheldon

 Well if he's the "Go to Guy" then he let a lot of people down when they trusted his company about the decoder upgrade.  The least he can do is set the record straight if his people were talking out of line.  I'm just glad I didn't listen to those talking about it when I upgraded to Tsunami or I'd feel like a fool.

I am surprised at the amount of typing my post created. I thought I was pretty clear about my objection. Anyone who likes MTH’s build quality or is enamored by DCS should go a head and buy a Cab Forward. I am sure you will be happy. I am not writing to debate this point. I was writing to those people who do not share this view.

If you can find one add for this loco from an on-line retailer where the acronym DCS appears I will show you two where it ONLY says DCC. This gives the uninitiated potential buyer completely wrong information. If DCS is such a great thing, I would have expected it to be highlighted among the listed features of the loco. It is not.

Hi...

To answer your question...

rjake4454

Heritagefleet1

I've already orderd my Big Boys and am getting rid of the BLI BlueLine one I have because I know they will be a plesant improvement over the BLI. Even the tender markers are lighted.

I thought the Blue Line one had lit markers on the tender as well? Or are they reflective jewels?

The MTH big boy is intriguing, I like the fact that it is all metal. However the Athearn weathered big boy is a beauty too and less expensive.

What don't you like about your blue line?

Hi... to answer your question, well, nothing at all - as a matter of fact it is a 1st class model. 

 But it's not a question of 'disliking' what I have already. With me, it more of wanting a more advanced operating model of that locomotive class.

I don't know how they do it but MTH's Canon drive motor, is absolutely the smoothest and most speed-sensitive powertrain out there.  I used to own some pretty smooth brass locos but nothing like these -the start voltage sensitivity is unbelievably ultra-smooth from idle and the sounds are stunning re-mastered digital recordings.

I was not as enthused about the Athearn Genesis Big Boy as others may have been - I had to send the 1st one I had back because of a quality control issue and the replacement never quite ran as smooth as it should have -no matter how much I tweaked the motor settings and BEMF control.

My reason for sheding the BLI from my collection is that I sincerely believe that the MTH model will be better detailed and offers the technology that the BLI simply can't match... and its a very nice model.

Allright...(the real reason is because I need the money to pay for the MTH)... just kidding.

I have quite a few of the MTH HO locomotives and I have never been disappointed with  a single one I've purchased.  I've read threads with critics talking about the early releases like the K4s Pennsy not having the correct spacing for the tender. Okay, I'll admit its a little long but I love that engine - and when I run it at an Open House event, it drops more jaws than anything running.

My latest aquisition is the Nickel Plate Burke 765 excursion(2009) version. All I can say is - well... Wow.

As for the BLI Big Boy, I'll be honest, I've only ran that beauty one time - it has spent the rest of its life under glass display on my fireplace mantel.

I paid about the same for it as I'll probably pay for the MTH version - I'm certain it will be a winner.

Have fun model railroading!

Rick

 There is hardly any doubt about the quality of MTH locos, but talking about an onboard DCC receiver is simply misleading, if not fraudulent.

MTH knows they are getting side tracked with their proprietary DCS system. but "sweet talking" the DCC user into buying their product  with a twist of words cannot be the solution - only full DCC compatibility is.

Hamltnblue

Heritagefleet1

Hi... hold on... they're working on it - it must be very hard for Mike Wolfe to succumb to the mass HO market pressure! - but, they are listening and I think in the near future, things will improve in regard to the DCC accessability.

I spoke with Jeff at MTH a few times about this and he explained that they are aware of the high demand for having accessability to the CV's. It will be possible for them to create a firmware update that can be flashed right to the locomotive from your PC, allowing more CV's to be user-adjustable. It'll be coming -they already have a DCC version of the 70ACe due out in August...the Firmware update will require an interface (T.I.U.) to program though, but, you'd need a inteface with anyone else's program anyway.

HeritageFleet1

 

Hi Heritage,

I don't know who mike wolf is but I can tell you this.  When MTH was telling people that there would be a free upgrade for the SD70Ace's they were obviously lying through their teeth.  It's been how long now and not a whisper of it.  If you go back in the threads when the SD70 was released you'll see several references to it.  MTH has a quality product IMO but lying to the customer to get sales is no way to keep them.

 

Back up there, my friend.  I'm well aware of all that has been said about the SD70ACe -  I don't know why you are acting as though they have rescinded that plan. I haven't read anywhere that they have 'abandoned' the thought. The SD70ACe was announced back in 2008. All the versions are now in they're 2nd and 3rd rerun and are selling faster than the dealers can get them in the LHS - I don't think Mike needs to lie to get the business...Don at Walthers just told us they are currently 284 units over-sold.

I've been in the hobby for over 40 years now and I've got to tell you: I've never seen a model that is in such high demand as this one - ever.

 Now, the Isolated Cabs(whisper)versions are going to arrive in August and will be offered initally in only the UP and BNSF versions with the low nose headlight and ph II a Brakewheel assembly.

MTH is meeting the demand with more runs.

Jeff Strank, the Product and Sales Manager at MTH has told me personally that they are discussing ways to do it and once Mike signs off on the project, it'll move forward. I'd guess that they probably have a software engineer working on an upgrade. It might be a year before its available.

Furthermore, they've gone one step further to make it easier for buyers to choose DCC only or Protosound 3.0. The DCC version of those locomotives are on being manufactured and should be hitting the store shelves in about 60 days from now.

In all fairness to you, I can understand a little frustration about it - I'm anxious about the upgrades too. MTH is learning from customer feedback and they are concerned and interested in what the HO modeler expects and wants.  They're serious about the HO market and are intoducing a lot of new products this year alone.

One of the reasons I spent the money on the DSCWireless was to be able to utilize the MTH sound files transfer allowing me to change the horns, idle recipes, and adjust the individual sound volumes on my SD70ACes... from one engine to the other on the PC ...and it works really well.

I've actually paid for the thing by upgrading locals' locomotives to their sound preferences.

If you don't want to invest in that system, then you can send your model back to service and they'll do it for you but they charge a bench charge of $50.

Be patient and we'll see the Firmware coming in  the future.

Geeeeez... I'm going to start billing Wolf for all my customer relations here.

HeritageFleet1

HeritageFleet1,

Drowning an uncomfortable message with a volume of irrelevant side issues is a well-known debate technique.

If you have something to say about the problem of marketing of a product with misleading statements, let us hear it. If you want to sing the praise of DCS and the owner of MTH, may I suggest that you start a new thread.

Well, I've seen the photos of the MTH AC-6, and I've watched the video.  And I LIKE the looks of that lokie a lot. 

The AC-6 is hands down my favorite SP cab-forward, historically it's the TRUE 'transitional' 4-8-8-2 between the lighter AC-4/5 and the later AC 7-12's (leaving out the AC-9 which was a Lima-built cab-backward 2-8-8-4).   It's a 'flat-faced' workhorse that showed the Sierra's, Cascades and Tehachapi's what these "Malleys" were really about. 

Okay, with that out of the way, being a DC'er like Sheldon, just how much electronic stuff am I going to have to tear out of that DCC/DCS-whatever lokie to get it to just run on plain old non-sound DC with the rest of my plain old non-sound DC locos?   

Just curious.  There ARE a few of us left, you know.

Tom

Tom... it should run on DC right out of the box - I'm guessing it'll require a volt or so to get it to wake up, if you're using a conventional rheostat(did I spell that right?) type throttle control.

As for the sound, there is a function for on/off but you'd be well off to go to the website and download the PDF of the Owner's Manual and it should tell you under analog operation. the URL is mthhotrains.com

If you can't find it, go to the contact button on the header and email me - I see if I can help you out with that.

HeritageFleet1

twhite

Okay, with that out of the way, being a DC'er like Sheldon, just how much electronic stuff am I going to have to tear out of that DCC/DCS-whatever lokie to get it to just run on plain old non-sound DC with the rest of my plain old non-sound DC locos?   

Tom, out of the box it will run on DC, but you will need about 1.5 amps at 16-18 volts to get any normal speed range out of it. It will not start moving until 6-8 volts.

I don't know about you, but all my stuff runs on 12 volts. My power supplies that I use with my Train Engineer throttles are regulated at 13.8 volts, 4 amps. The typical MTH loco wil only go about 25 SMPH at full throttle at 12-13 volts. My max on the rails voltage is 13.5

All my other brands of locos run at normal top speeds, or even too fast, none too slow - this is the big DC objection to MTH and DCS with DC use.

I will not have two different "systems" just like most DCC guys will not buy the pass through DSC controller.

And in my case, don't want the sound, so why pay for it?

MTH defenders like to point out the the NMRA RP's "allow" 16 volts, but they ignore other aspects of the Standards and RP's that indicate the proper operation should be possible at 12 volts.

Sheldon

Hamltnblue

Of course most steamers aren't consisted but the sounds are a big deal.

 

I found this comment most interesting? Steamers not consisted? Well I don't use DCC at home, but I use it on several friends layouts and we run double headed steam, consisted to one throttle quite a bit.

And my layout, and future layout plans involve quite a bit of double and even triple headed steam, even without DCC.

I don't know what "most" people do, partly because I'm not really a "joiner" or a "go along with the crowd" kind of person, but as an experainced railfan and modeler of the late steam/transition era, double headed steam is pretty common on my radar.

In the 40's-50's, the average manifest frieght leaving Baltimore on the orginal mainline west was 50 cars pulled my two Mikado's. At Brunswick, that power would be changed to two 2-8-8-0's for the climb over the Allegheny summit, which would require two more 2-8-8-4's as helpers (or a set of ABBA FA's or F3's in later years).

I would think lots of steam modelers are double or triple heading steam and taking advantage of the features of DCC.

I have not found those features necessary, but I'm sure some have. Actually, I have found that much of the new product out there runs well together across brand and wheel arrangement - example, my Proto 2-8-8-2's and my Spectrum 2-6-6-2's run very well double headed together - on good old DC with no modifications to the locos.

But again, it is a shame that with such an otherwise high quality product, MTH has chosen to ignore all long and well established control system interchangeablity standards in DC and DCC.

One more prototype note - on the Western Maryland, some of their branches had such sharp curves and steep grades, the largest power that could be used were large 2-8-0's. It would often take three on the front, two in the middle and two or three on the rear to move 70-100 coal trains out of those branches, now that would be some serious "consisting" and helper operation in model form.

To simulate this on a more practical level, I pull 40 car hopper trains with three Spectrum 2-8-0's - looks really cool!.

Maybe this is why Bachmann keeps selling so many of those things.

But what do I know.........

Sheldon

twhite

Just curious.  There ARE a few of us left, you know.

 Sheldon.

I said Most steamers aren't consisted.  Not talking historically but when you see pics of peoples layouts most people I see in the hobby do not consist their steam.  This includes all of the clubs I've visited over the years during the Christmas Season.

Driline

twhite

Just curious.  There ARE a few of us left, you know.

So far I count 2. Soon to be one. (I have been working secretly on a plan to upgrade Sheldon's entire fleet of locomotives and train layout with the latest DCC decoders and wireless NCE Pro Cab system. Please keep this quiet however, because it is a secret and Sheldon must never know.)

Just send me the money instead, I promise to do something frivolous with it like buy an over priced German or Japanese luxury sport sedan or a display case full of MTH locos.

I still want to know - what's the point of DCC if its not wireless?

Sheldon

sheldon: 

Like you, I run on 12 volts, though my pack has another setting that allows 16 volts maximum (but that's a G-scale setting), so it would seem to me that the top speed I could possibly hope for with the AC-6 would be about 20-25 miles per hour at full throttle.  Which of course would preclude my using any of my other DC locos as mid-train helpers. 

Like you, I can use a great deal of my motive power in tandem in DC--either double-headed or as mid-train helpers.  Can't see me doing so with the AC-6, though.  As to sound--well, I have an 'under-layout' Soundtraxx system that I use when I WANT sound (which is not that often), so I don't need on-board speakers in my motive power.  Just me.   

Oh well--that AC-6 DID sound kinda/sorta nice. 

Tom

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I still want to know - what's the point of DCC if its not wireless?

Sheldon

My layout is only 11X8, so a tethered DCC throttle is all I need. Wireless would be overkill and expensive IMHO.

You however would benefit from wireless since your layout is the size of a small banana Republic.

Driline

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I still want to know - what's the point of DCC if its not wireless?

Sheldon

 

My layout is only 11X8, so a tethered DCC throttle is all I need. Wireless would be overkill and expensive IMHO.

You however would benefit from wireless since your layout is the size of a small banana Republic.

And I have wireless, and signals and CTC, just no DCC. And I can afford a banana Republic sized layout because I drive modest cars and keep them a long time! And I saved $10,000 by not wanting/needing sound decoders in my 120 locos.

We all make choices.....

But what do I know............

Sheldon

MTH has Great Looking stuff. I don't understand why they didn't just go with the flow and make DCC items.

But since it is their proprietary DCS system and not DCC, I won't pony up that kind of money { iff'n I had it to pony up} unless I wanted to convert to their system and buy their products exclusively. Doubt that will ever happen.

I think advertising it to entice DCC users is plain wrong. I think if it really is or can be made to be compatible RTR out of the box on a DCC system, they might enjoy more sales. But I wouldn't buy something from them just to have to have to convert it to DCC for my own use.

Until then, I don't care how good they make their products or how good they look like the real thing, I won't be buying anything from them. I am hoping other DCC manufacturers might learn from MTH on "how to build a better loco" - on DCC of course.

Just my

galaxy

MTH has Great Looking stuff. I don't understand why they didn't just go with the flow and make DCC items.

But since it is their proprietary DCS system and not DCC, I won't pony up that kind of money { iff'n I had it to pony up} unless I wanted to convert to their system and buy their products exclusively. Doubt that will ever happen.

I think advertising it to entice DCC users is plain wrong. I think if it really is or can be made to be compatible RTR out of the box on a DCC system, they might enjoy more sales. But I wouldn't buy something from them just to have to have to convert it to DCC for my own use.

Until then, I don't care how good they make their products or how good they look like the real thing, I won't be buying anything from them. I am hoping other DCC manufacturers might learn from MTH on "how to build a better loco" - on DCC of course.

Just my

Yes, I think that summarizes most people's reasoning for their objections. Well said.