ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd I have wireless, and signals and CTC, just no DCC. And I can afford a banana Republic sized layout because I drive modest cars and keep them a long time! And I saved $10,000 by not wanting/needing sound decoders in my 120 locos. We all make choices..... But what do I know............ Sheldon
And I have wireless, and signals and CTC, just no DCC. And I can afford a banana Republic sized layout because I drive modest cars and keep them a long time! And I saved $10,000 by not wanting/needing sound decoders in my 120 locos.
We all make choices.....
But what do I know............
Sheldon
I wouldn't want sound in that many locomotives, it would drive you crazy. All I can handle is about one or two at a time, and it's nice to go back and run non sound loco's just to hear the clickety clack.
I know what you're going to say, and NO I didn't go DCC just for sound. And I'm not going to argue with you..BUT
Someday, you will be assimilated. It's only a matter of time Bwaaa haaa haaaa.....
Hi all,
DanteSIf you have something to say about the problem of marketing of a product with misleading statements, let us hear it. If you want to sing the praise of DCS and the owner of MTH, may I suggest that you start a new thread.
If you have something to say about the problem of marketing of a product with misleading statements, let us hear it. If you want to sing the praise of DCS and the owner of MTH, may I suggest that you start a new thread.
Welcome to the forum DanteS!
I think from HeritageFleet 1's perspective there is nothing misleading about saying the MTH engines have a "DCC receiver." As another owner of several MTH engines I share that perspective. It is interesting that they chose the word "receiver" rather than more colloquial term "decoder," but that hardly seems nefarious.
There has been a lot of misinformation and confusion about MTH Protosound 3 locomotives. Here are a couple of perfect examples:
DanteSI had an opportunity to examine the instruction booklet that comes with the new MTH HO Cab Forward. The instructions make it very clear that this engine does NOT have a DCC decoder.
galaxyMTH has Great Looking stuff. I don't understand why they didn't just go with the flow and make DCC items. But since it is their proprietary DCS system and not DCC, I won't pony up that kind of money... ...if it really is or can be made to be compatible RTR out of the box on a DCC system, they might enjoy more sales.
MTH has Great Looking stuff. I don't understand why they didn't just go with the flow and make DCC items.
But since it is their proprietary DCS system and not DCC, I won't pony up that kind of money...
...if it really is or can be made to be compatible RTR out of the box on a DCC system, they might enjoy more sales.
To say that MTH PS3 engines do not have a DCC decoder and are not RTR on any DCC system out of the box is simply WRONG! I run all my MTH engines with my NCE DCC system. The only modification I had to make to get the most out my MTH engines was to upgrade my NCE system to support F13-28 so I could access all the features. All of them have run and programmed as advertised and per the instruction manual right out of the box.
It is true that MTH PS3 decoders do not support some of the more common and/or desirable programming options. Most notably, they do not support speed mapping, function mapping, or advanced consisting. The lack of speed mapping is only an issue if you have adopted a different speed map for your fleet and spent a lot of time programming your other engines. Otherwise, the MTH engines have the advantage of being consistently speed mapped to each other right out of the box. Regardless of the prototype all MTH engines run in 1 scale mile per hour increments on 128 speed steps. Function mapping is a nice feature, but if your DCC system already supports 28 functions it's not nearly as big an issue. Advanced consisting is certainly an important feature that MTH needs to add, but in the mean time they consist beautifully under universal consisting. In fact, MTH's optical speed control system and consistent speed map make them the best performing engines in a consist from any manufacturer. Right out of the box I was able to consist my SP GS-4 #4449 with my UP heritage SP SD70ACe without re-programming of CV's.
To say that MTH PS3 engines don't have DCC is far more misleading than anything MTH put in their catalog.
HamltnblueWhen MTH was telling people that there would be a free upgrade for the SD70Ace's they were obviously lying through their teeth. It's been how long now and not a whisper of it. If you go back in the threads when the SD70 was released you'll see several references to it. MTH has a quality product IMO but lying to the customer to get sales is no way to keep them.
This is exactly the kind of speculation that leads confusion in the market. Did MTH promise a free software upgrade to the SD70ACe's that would add support for several DCC features? Yes. Has it been quite a while since the announcement? Yes. Does that mean they were lying and never intended to offer an upgrade? No. Are they still working on an upgrade? Yes.
I don't work for MTH. I'm a full time builder of custom model railroads. However, I install a lot of their products, they have published some of my track plans, and I am a volunteer beta tester for their software. MTH catalogs over 1500 new items each year in several scales. A lot of those products require new technology development. One of the most legitimate criticisms of MTH is that their R&D department is under staffed. The people they have do good quality work, but there aren't enough of them to get everything done in a timely manner. I know from conversations with MTH's V.P. of R&D, Dave Krebiehl, that they have put a higher priority on getting their DCC-ready engines and DCS Remote Commander (a stripped down version of DCS that will be included with starter sets) out to the market than the software upgrade for the SD70ACe's. They still intend to do it. When they are ready to beta test the software upgrade I'll be sure to post about it here. All the locomotives with MTH's newest PS3 decoder will be upgradeable. That includes the SD70's as well as the Little Joe's, PA/PB's, FA/FB's, F3's, F7's, and UP Turbines. The decoder in these engines use an FPGA (field programmable gate array) chip that allows for the entire software package in the locomotive to be reprogrammed. The steamers use an earlier 2 piece (engine/tender) decoder design that keeps part of the software on flash memory and part on a ROM. These engines can only have the sound and control files upgraded, not the basic system support. BTW, HeritageFleet1 earlier mentioned that he too had recently confirmed the SD70ACe's would still be upgraded with Jeff Strank. For clarity, Jeff is the V.P. of Service. Sales are handled by Rich Foster. Marketing is Andy Edleman's department. Occasionally Andy posts on this forum.
Bottom line is that if there are customers out there who bought product thinking it would be upgraded they were misled. A half year later and still nothing. We don't care about staffing or any other excuse. If you cant produce it in a reasonable time then don't promise it or leak it.
If A car salesman sold you a car 6 months ago and told you that a car you liked had an air conditioner didn't get very cold but would be upgraded for free, you'd be pretty po'd about now. Where I'm from it's called a Lie and there are many people who trusted the company and feel pretty foolish for doing so.
Springfield PA
DrilineI wouldn't want sound in that many locomotives, it would drive you crazy. All I can handle is about one or two at a time, and it's nice to go back and run non sound loco's just to hear the clickety clack.
Go back and read the several recent threads about sound. When I do something about sound, it will be layout based.
DrilineSomeday, you will be assimilated. It's only a matter of time Bwaaa haaa haaaa.....
No, I'm going to hold out for direct radio before I put any gizzmos in my locos.
Whatever the arguments given in favor of MTH are, it is a fact that MTH´s DCS system is not a full DCC system, compliant to NMRA standards. In their own interest, MTH should abstain from such trickery. I still find this statement to be highly misleading, if not fraudulent. Isn´t there a truth in advertising act, covering this?
Dave... thanks for correcting me about Stranks title... I messed that up as well and making the comment in an earlier thread about MTH locos working in DC...I mispoke and indicated "it will take a volt or so to get it started, moving, etc.." I MEANT to say Amps.
But the gentleman made the point to Tom correctly...I stand corrected.
I've really go to stop emailing at early hours of the morning.
Anyway, I appreciate your comments.
No matter what you say, sometimes the communication just doesn't get through to certain individuals.
And that is becuase there is usually an ax to grind.
I can't help anyone who would rather make accusations about 'lies' that are at best, mis-guided comments based on nothing more than irrational thought - instead of just learning from what's being said from people - modelers- who do have experience with the HO MTH products and can assure you that there is no issue about the DCC operation.
Based on his own words, I'm convinced the person that started this topic isn't really interested in knowing that the AC-6 he just bought will run just fine in DCC operation, with no problems at all - as a matter of fact, it probably runs better than most DCC-equipped locos on the market... which brings me to the question of why you would even want to make any changes to the motor control settings anyway... the things run like a Rolls Royce.
If anything, I'd much rather make motor intensity adjustments that match these engines, which as a matter of fact, I have done to many of my Athearn models including the Genesis line.
Another point I'll make is that contrary to popular basher gossip, the MTH HO models do consist easily as pressing a function button. Allthough they were not set up to offer advanced consisting originally, Universal consisting works simple and easy and I've run my freight and passenger trains at many a show, with a MTH GS-6 and a Key Imports Northern and they performed beautifully - so impressively that others at the show were not only surprised how well they ran, but conceeded that they had been wrong.
Same with the SD70ACe's ... I routinely run a consist of two ACe's with some Athearn RTR Tunnel Motors equipped with Tsunamis and a Kato AC4400,SD90/43 or C-44-9 for good measure.
The Katos actually run very well with the ACe's as they have very similar motor start voltages and speed curves. Anyone who is in DCC at any length, will be able to easily use a program like Sprog or Loco-Buffer II and JMRI w/Decoder-Pro software to make any speed matches necessary from a PC.
My biggest gripe was that I had to upgrade my throttles to 28 functions so that I could enjoy the benfit of additional functionality.
Here is the real bottom line:
At the end of the day after its all said and done, the MTH offerings will perform better than anything on the market and works with great ease and simplicity with all DCC systems.
I'm not going to debate the user-friendliness or the 'compatability' of MTH locomotives with anybody who doesn't have good sense to just quit barking and wait for the darned firmware upgrades.
So, those of you who have made the decision to 'snub' the MTH line of HO products, I wish you no pain but beleive you're missing out on something that makes this hobby really come to life.
I reject out of hand, any accusation of 'lies' or 'mis-representation' regarding MTH, their ads or claims... there is no substaniation or validity to those remarks.
I have great respect and admiration for people who know what they are talking about and are always wanting to learn about something new... Regretfully, I have no latitude for anyone that suggests untruths with no basis in fact. It is simply not right.
With that, I leave this topic to the rest of the 10-12 posters who wish to scurry on.
NOTICE: The commentary forementioned in the above post are expressly the thoughts and opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the views of the sponsers of this site, Model Railroader Magazine and its web affilaites,Kalmbach Publishing, MTH Electric Trains or its affiliates in any form or manner. Views expressed are strictly for the benefit of participants who are interested in such topics and are motivated to share their insights through participation in the forum.
HeritageFleet1... "UP Extra 3985 West...out..."
NevinWAll I have to say is this: The second MTH makes a small generic or Harriman 2-8-0, 4-6-0, 0-6-0 of the quality of their current models, I buy a half dozen. DCS or not. Full compatibility with DCC or not. - Nevin
And if they offer them DC/DCC ready with no sound, I'll be in for at least a half dozen too!
The threads about people complaining that MTH locos have no DCC are really tiring. The number of such threads only says that a lot of people like MTH hardware but wish it had full featured DCC decoder like Tsunimai or QSi. The fact of the matter that MTH does have a DCC with Sound with a limited number of configurable option. I started venturing into the European train world and their DCC equipped locos have even shorter list of configurable CVs - yet no one complains. On some of Trix locos they don't even have Factory Reset in the manual.
I understand about wishing for MTH to offer a version of their locos with standard NMRA DCC plug so customers can upgrade. But complaining about "It's says DCC, but it's NOT!" every time new loco is released is got to stop.
Heritagefleet1I've already orderd my Big Boys and am getting rid of the BLI BlueLine one I have because I know they will be a plesant improvement over the BLI. Even the tender markers are lighted.
The MTH Big Boy is produced with the same basic tooling as the PCM and BLI Blueline Big Boy. They have added DCS and some other lighting and probably the smoke feature also, but the overall detail is the same as the previous BLI versions. By the way, the tender marker lights were not used in normal freight service.
CZ
Sir Madog Whatever the arguments given in favor of MTH are, it is a fact that MTH´s DCS system is not a full DCC system, compliant to NMRA standards. In their own interest, MTH should abstain from such trickery. I still find this statement to be highly misleading, if not fraudulent. Isn´t there a truth in advertising act, covering this?
MTH OFFERS FULL COMPATIBILITY WITH ALL HO
OPERATING SYSTEMS
Right out of the box, every Proto-Sound 3.0 M.T.H. engine is compatible
with all HO operating systems: conventional DC, DCC,
and our own Digital Command System (DCS). No switches to flip
or adjustments to make. Your Proto-Sound engine senses what
kind of power is on the rails; just set it on the track and run it.
Their DCC compatability is compliant with NMRA standards* - it just doesn't offer you the full array of CV's. You're right that DCS is not a full DCC system, but it does support DCC capability and it isn't something you have to add.
The vast majority of modelers - even advanced modelers - never or very rarely manipulate the factory defaults of the CV menu anyway except for v-start,accel rate,deaccel rate and max speed, not to mention the fact that not all CV values represent the same functions or control from one manufacturer to another. There is the real issue with compliance -non-uniformity. But, it is getting better -slowly.
MTH probably limited the number of CV's accessible to the user to prevent potential damage to the Decoder/Receiver on board, AND, more directly- to protect the consumer from costly repair out of warranty.
I would agree that I would like to have more access to a few more settings without the assistance of using the DCS wireless but again, these locomotives come out of the box with such nearly ideal settings other than subjective sound volumes, that there is virtually no need to adjust anything.
THE ONLY CV adjustments I'd like to see are for individual sound settings - that's about all I see that's missing. The DCS wireless controller and TIU (Track Interface Unit) allows you to adjust individual sound levels as well as program lighting functions , or record and add your own locomotive sound files - pretty cool.
Lok-Sound is the only other company even getting close to this, that I know of and they are expensive.
It is my impression that is time goes forward and in the very near future, MTH WILL adapt their thinking and will offer more user-flexible options, as well as a firmware update for older existing models.
HeritageFleet1
For the record, I'm not a supporter of DCS - allthough I have a Wirless controller - I use it primarily to program MTH receivers.
I use a compliment of Digitrax Command Control equipment and have NO issues with uncomplicated operation of MTH locos and am able to consist with ease.
Is there anything new, any new information to move this discussion forward? If not, we should probably move on to other topics.
-Crandell
Excellent idea, Crandell!
Good!...maybe I can trade my blueline in on the newer improved tooling version. It's about danged time I get something out of that lawsuit.
Comparing the photos on line to the PCM version, it looks like there are some subtle changes and revisions in the main casing but the sound and drive mechanism will definitely be worth the change.
Of course, these are only photos and the image may be of a pre-production sample. These guys have a habit of showing either O scale samples of an annonuced model or, in this case, what appears to be a pre-production HO version.
My experience has been that the finished product is always pleasently more impressive than the photos reveal.
Now... PLEASE!!!... We need Sharks...lots of Pennsy and B&O Sharks...what? there coming??
Really??? you're kidding!!!...Weeeee'll see....Hmmmmmmmm....
Wouldn't you like to know!
Rick
I agree Crandell, we should shelve this until the next advertisement, oops thread appears in a few weeks
Heritagefleet1 MTH OFFERS FULL COMPATIBILITY WITH ALL HO OPERATING SYSTEMS Right out of the box, every Proto-Sound 3.0 M.T.H. engine is compatible with all HO operating systems: conventional DC,
with all HO operating systems: conventional DC,
Respectfully I will repeat that requiring 16-18 volts to reach prototypical top speeds is NOT "full compatibility" in DC. NMRA Standards and RP's clearly provide for "satisfactory" operation at 12 volts DC.
25-30 SMPH at 12-13 volts for a loco who's prototype can go 70 MPH is hardly satisfactory.
All my other trains run just fine on 12 volts, I'm not risking damage to them or having a two tier system to run MTH products.
So when they start offering DC/DCC ready products that run on 12 volts, I might buy some.
I guess we are not shelving this one quite yet. smiley
I would love to see how the imminent DC offerings from MTH do when they come out. I don't wish them any ill fortune, particularly when they appear, at long last to be agreeing to try that part of the market. I also want to see Sheldon rave about his first DC MTH purchase. And, the hobby will be better off in the long run with them playing the game nicely in the same sandbox, no sand-throwing, and some of us will enjoy another iteration of the Big Boy. I think Magnus must be ready to get some duplicates for spare parts just about now.
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