CSSHEGEWISCH wrote:A four-axle version of an SD70 for passenger service would be expensive since there is no existing four-axle platform upon which to base it. Only a handful of Amtrak's F40PH's were resold for rebuilding for freight service even though they were based on a GP40 platform.
Understandable, but I was just thinking to myself that it's very likely that EMD still has the GP60 platform and/or the equipment to cast that specific sized 4 axle frame. Hence they might be able to produce a 4 axle version of the 70 series.
Anyway, I do hope that EMD does not stay out of the passenger market and is hopefully making plans with a potential model inspite of the competition from GE, Siemens, Bombardier, etc.
Ham made a point on a past thread that EMD did have the better reputation as far as reliability. Comments have been posted in past issues of TRAINS magazines from locomotives crews stating that they prefer EMDs over GEs any day of the week.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
F40PH's have always outperformed Genesis locomotives in safety the F40PH photo was from a similar wreck to the P42 one (F40PH photo from a FRA report I read). Yes unlike a lot of the nay sayers here I take the time to research the FRA reports. While a P42 derails after hitting a tiny truck F40PH's plow thought loaded dump trucks. Hell engineers have even lived through crashes with gas tankers in those things.
Show me a report that says a F40 is safer than a P42. Every crash is different with a million variables. You can't handpick two of them to prove your point.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
k4driver1361 wrote:I have seen Dash 8's as HEP on the capitol limited
Amtrak77 wrote: k4driver1361 wrote:I have seen Dash 8's as HEP on the capitol limitedAnd you won't! that is a train designed for P42 only unless they dust off an F7 A-B-B-A unit and paint it amtrak's Phase V design..then P42's 2 twice a day...
What? Do you mean the Dash 8s will have clearance problems or something? To the best of my knowledge, the locomotive doesn't make a differance unless there are height/weight restrcitions or something. Please clarify.
O.K, so they're still in service.
I wish I could find the info, but I vaguely remember reading on an Amtrak related forum a year or so back that the Amtrak brass in charge of motive power reported that Amtrak actually had a surplus of locomotives (yeah, surprised me too!) and recommended that the paperwork process to retire/sell/auction the oldest units (the P32s) begin asap. The F40 Cabbage units are not included as they're no longer classified as independent motive power.
Having worked for a transit company myself, I know that the fleet retirement process involves a slow bueracratic process. The SDP40fs were supposed to be retired by 1978, yet the last one wasn't removed from Amtrak's LD trains until 1981, long after the F40 became Amtrak's flagship locomotive.
But since it's been a year or more since I read that info, I'm assuming that by now Amtrak would have stated something to the effect that the P32s were going "bye-bye". Being hood units with Dash 8/9 power systems, the P32s would likely find homes on regional railroads that are still operating 30 year old power.
AntonioFP45 wrote: O.K, so they're still in service.I wish I could find the info, but I vaguely remember reading on an Amtrak related forum a year or so back that the Amtrak brass in charge of motive power reported that Amtrak actually had a surplus of locomotives (yeah, surprised me too!) and recommended that the paperwork process to retire/sell/auction the oldest units (the P32s) begin asap. The F40 Cabbage units are not included as they're no longer classified as independent motive power. Having worked for a transit company myself, I know that the fleet retirement process involves a slow bueracratic process. The SDP40fs were supposed to be retired by 1978, yet the last one wasn't removed from Amtrak's LD trains until 1981, long after the F40 became Amtrak's flagship locomotive. But since it's been a year or more since I read that info, I'm assuming that by now Amtrak would have stated something to the effect that the P32s were going "bye-bye". Being hood units with Dash 8/9 power systems, the P32s would likely find homes on regional railroads that are still operating 30 year old power.
Maybe... but wouldnt they likely need to have the bodies rebuilt, I can hardly see any older P32s or P42s being used as a shortline road switcher, can you? you can barely see out of them in any direction other than straight ahead as it is. I suspect that any that get sold would soon get rebuilt like the old Santa Fe F7s that were rebuilt as CF7s with a more conventional body and cab.
Have fun with your trains
VSmith,
I may have misidentified the locomotive type, but I'm referring to the Amtrak Dash-8 hood units, which I thought Amtrak classed them as P-32s, while the P40 and P42 class are the carbodied units.
Since hood units are preferred by Class 1 and Regional/Short Lines, I was making the assumption that the Amtrak hood units would likely find homes quickly. Especially since a number of regionals are still running 1st and 2nd generation units that will eventually become unfeasible to rebuild over and over again as parts supplies for these units continue to dwindel.
4merroad4man wrote:Well, let's see. The oldest of the P42's are now 17 years old. The vast majority of the fleet is 15 years old and aging. These locomotives have actually performed reasonably well, given a few things that many folks don't realize: 1. They run pretty much around the clock, and in the past 10 years, a significant portion of these units have operated with as little as 10 hours off for limited servicing (that's throw fuel in em and turn em around), many instances being runs of 1000 miles or more in 24 hours.2. Many of these units get NO rest, as they are relied upon to provide standby HEP during layovers.3. Many of these units have run in excess of 4,000,000 miles, with the highest in service units approaching the 6 million mile mark.4. At 17 years old, these units are rivaling EMD's F units for longevity, and may outlast them by sheer will of maintenance and necessity.5. Recent problems surrounding traction motors are now just being felt by freight roads, since their units do not in any way come close to the mileage being tossed onto Amtrak's fleet. Doing a little digging will allow you to discover that the TM issue is the supplier's and now that the freight roads are actually feeling the pinch, there is some leverage to get the issues resolved...NOW.6. If these units are so horrible, then GE, Amtrak and the BLE can take the blame, since they all had a hand in its design.7. I have had 3 units fail on me since their introduction; one for a bad air brake valve, one for an injector problem (a previous warranty issue) and the last due to the now infamous traction motor issue.If you look at the units as they stand, senior citizens of the locomotive world, then they really aren't bad at all. They called the F40's junk when they got old, and the covered wagons were spat upon when they got too old to do an honest day's work. I guess it is just the way of the world. Ease up guys. Sure, there are some bad actors, just like in steam days...these engines still have personalities; but unless you have worked with them day in and day out and see firsthand the abuse they take and the virtual round the clock service they give, it is pretty easy to be critical. Not me. These units get me home every night I work, and at the end of each run, the unit (the Eagle gets a single unit these days) that gets me there gets a pat on the flank for a job well done.
Well, let's see. The oldest of the P42's are now 17 years old. The vast majority of the fleet is 15 years old and aging. These locomotives have actually performed reasonably well, given a few things that many folks don't realize:
1. They run pretty much around the clock, and in the past 10 years, a significant portion of these units have operated with as little as 10 hours off for limited servicing (that's throw fuel in em and turn em around), many instances being runs of 1000 miles or more in 24 hours.
2. Many of these units get NO rest, as they are relied upon to provide standby HEP during layovers.
3. Many of these units have run in excess of 4,000,000 miles, with the highest in service units approaching the 6 million mile mark.
4. At 17 years old, these units are rivaling EMD's F units for longevity, and may outlast them by sheer will of maintenance and necessity.
5. Recent problems surrounding traction motors are now just being felt by freight roads, since their units do not in any way come close to the mileage being tossed onto Amtrak's fleet. Doing a little digging will allow you to discover that the TM issue is the supplier's and now that the freight roads are actually feeling the pinch, there is some leverage to get the issues resolved...NOW.
6. If these units are so horrible, then GE, Amtrak and the BLE can take the blame, since they all had a hand in its design.
7. I have had 3 units fail on me since their introduction; one for a bad air brake valve, one for an injector problem (a previous warranty issue) and the last due to the now infamous traction motor issue.
If you look at the units as they stand, senior citizens of the locomotive world, then they really aren't bad at all. They called the F40's junk when they got old, and the covered wagons were spat upon when they got too old to do an honest day's work. I guess it is just the way of the world. Ease up guys. Sure, there are some bad actors, just like in steam days...these engines still have personalities; but unless you have worked with them day in and day out and see firsthand the abuse they take and the virtual round the clock service they give, it is pretty easy to be critical. Not me. These units get me home every night I work, and at the end of each run, the unit (the Eagle gets a single unit these days) that gets me there gets a pat on the flank for a job well done.
Perfectly said. And makes sense this came from someone who actually uses them, and not from an outsider who read some articles and then made an ill-informed conclusion.
They're getting old, and nothing is harder on a locomotive then passenger service. High speed, long distances, little if any time off, and demanding start up speed all add up to early retirement in the end.
And the mini discussion about how F40's are safer then P40/P42s is laughable. No proof, just poorly used comparison photos. I seem to recall a similar discussion by the same person using the same photos.
When comparing which loco is safer I look to when both were in the same wreck. One that comes to mind is the Sunset Limited 1993 Big Bayou Canot tragedy. The lead P40 did not catch fire even after flying through the air and impacting into the swampy ground with immense force. Unfortunately the crew could not survive such forces. But I think it is important that both trailing F40s fuel tanks ruptured and resulted in fires while the lead P40, with the newly designed safety tank, did not. Seems safer to me, but I'm not an expert with an F40 in my signature so what do I know?
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
AntonioFP45 wrote: VSmith,I may have misidentified the locomotive type, but I'm referring to the Amtrak Dash-8 hood units, which I thought Amtrak classed them as P-32s, while the P40 and P42 class are the carbodied units.Since hood units are preferred by Class 1 and Regional/Short Lines, I was making the assumption that the Amtrak hood units would likely find homes quickly. Especially since a number of regionals are still running 1st and 2nd generation units that will eventually become unfeasible to rebuild over and over again as parts supplies for these units continue to dwindel.
Dont be too sure about that, seams like some of them shortlines will run anything they can get their hands on. Wouldnt surprise me one bit one of these future days to see a P42 shoving cars at a grain silo or pulling a tourist train...
Good point, VSmith.
However, my point was that hood units would most likely be top of a Regional or shorline railroad's list that's seeking used, more modern motive power. From what I've read, most U.S locomotive crews do not like carbodied units for operating on local delivery runs, transfer runs, and switching service due to the more restricted visibility.
I've been fortunate enough to have sat in the engineer's seat on several different types of locomotives and appreciate why crews prefer hood units.
But I can envision someday seeing P40s and P42s on tourist and museum trains, without a doubt. Of course if in decent condition and cheap enough, I agree that a regional railroad might purchase used Genesis units as well. GE now has the advantage in being the "#1" locomotive builder and having a big parts inventory available