boxcar_jim wrote: simon1966 wrote: Safety Valve wrote: What a mess this unit is turning out to be.Why? It seems like a darned good idea and a way to bring sound to the masses at a much lower price tag. I wish they would make something that I actually want! Simon - I think your earlier post about why they have chosen not to install DCC motor drive is quite logical. I am also quite sure that they want to get out of the QSI licensing deal but there are probably still contractual obligations to deal with, and this is a way round it.Safety Valve - I really don't buy your "a divided house cannot stand" argument. There have been multiple control systems around in Europe for decades (Marklin's AC three rail, Motorola Command Control, Lenz's DCC - remember thats what the NMRA standard is based on - and standard 2 rail DC) and I don't see the hobby or manufacurers suffering because of that. Theres plenty of room in this hobby for DCC and DC side by side - the trainset brigade will never want or need many features of DCC so its an uneccssary expense for them. Its not until you take the hobby to the next level that DCC starts becoming attractive. Thats why I don't get Bachmanns EZ-DCC and Hornby's new "Select" (which btw whilst calling itself DCC isn't NMRA compliant), but thats another issue for another day. Don't get me wrong I think DCC is great and wouldn't want to go back to DC now - but thats because I (and many others on this forum) appreciate many of its complexities which others won't get or want to learn. Maybe its not fun for some folks learning how to program decoders, they might enjoy other aspects of the hobby much more. Thats OK - there's plenty of room for all. As I understand these Blue Line units there is no need to actually program anything on DCC, like the QSI dual mode decoders they can be programmed on DC, in this case with a DCMaster - which you are going to want anyway if you are going to blow the horn and ring the bell. For many they probably won't want to program anything anyway ...
simon1966 wrote: Safety Valve wrote: What a mess this unit is turning out to be.Why? It seems like a darned good idea and a way to bring sound to the masses at a much lower price tag. I wish they would make something that I actually want!
Safety Valve wrote: What a mess this unit is turning out to be.
What a mess this unit is turning out to be.
Why? It seems like a darned good idea and a way to bring sound to the masses at a much lower price tag. I wish they would make something that I actually want!
Simon - I think your earlier post about why they have chosen not to install DCC motor drive is quite logical. I am also quite sure that they want to get out of the QSI licensing deal but there are probably still contractual obligations to deal with, and this is a way round it.
Safety Valve - I really don't buy your "a divided house cannot stand" argument. There have been multiple control systems around in Europe for decades (Marklin's AC three rail, Motorola Command Control, Lenz's DCC - remember thats what the NMRA standard is based on - and standard 2 rail DC) and I don't see the hobby or manufacurers suffering because of that. Theres plenty of room in this hobby for DCC and DC side by side - the trainset brigade will never want or need many features of DCC so its an uneccssary expense for them. Its not until you take the hobby to the next level that DCC starts becoming attractive. Thats why I don't get Bachmanns EZ-DCC and Hornby's new "Select" (which btw whilst calling itself DCC isn't NMRA compliant), but thats another issue for another day.
Don't get me wrong I think DCC is great and wouldn't want to go back to DC now - but thats because I (and many others on this forum) appreciate many of its complexities which others won't get or want to learn. Maybe its not fun for some folks learning how to program decoders, they might enjoy other aspects of the hobby much more. Thats OK - there's plenty of room for all.
As I understand these Blue Line units there is no need to actually program anything on DCC, like the QSI dual mode decoders they can be programmed on DC, in this case with a DCMaster - which you are going to want anyway if you are going to blow the horn and ring the bell. For many they probably won't want to program anything anyway ...
Your points are compelling. Thank you for a good post.
Low speed cogging on your QSI upgrade chip? If anything, that chip should improve your start speed and lower the amount of "Juice" you need to get it moving.
I dont have this unit as of yet, Im actually reading this review in the MR this afternoon very carefully and waiting for the website to carry one of thier MR Layout videos of this unit actually running and pulling a train.
Safety Valve wrote: Now you ask me why am I thinking Blueline is a mess?I say Blueline is a Global declaration by BLI that they are tired of QSI Royalties and will build stuff thier way. Not to save money, not to lower pricing and... probably to generate more income from tooling that was used previously when they had QSI products in the past.QSI is going to have to wake up and smell the coffee... then get to work to generate decoders similar to Tusumis, (Spelling?) Soundtraxx and Digitrax if they want to stay revelant after the initial glow of thier upgrade chips wear off.
Now you ask me why am I thinking Blueline is a mess?
I say Blueline is a Global declaration by BLI that they are tired of QSI Royalties and will build stuff thier way. Not to save money, not to lower pricing and... probably to generate more income from tooling that was used previously when they had QSI products in the past.
QSI is going to have to wake up and smell the coffee... then get to work to generate decoders similar to Tusumis, (Spelling?) Soundtraxx and Digitrax if they want to stay revelant after the initial glow of thier upgrade chips wear off.
Safety Valve
There is no doubt that BLI wants to get rid of the QSI contracts and license fees. The contract they probably had with QSI after five years or so is done. By doing their own system, they could save a lot of money and offer models at a lower price. I have not heard the BLI sound system and don't know if it is good or not. Does your Blue Line diesel sound good??
PCM was started up so they could use Loksound. I own both QSI sound BLI models and Loksound PCM models. They both have advantages and disadvantages when compared to each other.
I would encourage QSI to offer stand alone sound systems that can be added to non sound models. I was happy with the upgrade sound chips in all areas except the low speed cogging.
Cheers
Give us a review of the latest BLI sound if you have time.
When Blueline was first announced "Ok Cool! DC users get a chance to have sound."
Later, an ebay debate about this unit versus first run QSI equippted unit.
Afterwards this thread comes up with manuals for setting a sound decoder. You cannot do this in DC. You need to spend another 30 dollars for a DC Master unit or very least get onto a DCC system.
Finally I understand from the recent link to Tony's page that there is a problem with a hot wire for decoders at the 8 pin plug.
Not to mention rumors of pricing for hobby shops versus stores saying they wont bother to carry the units, at least in my area. If I special order one, they will do it but there is no profit in it. Not at these pricing.
I have accepted long ago that I am DCC. Yes there is a bit of DC left and will always be a part of the railroading... but you want to know my thoughts to the future?
Probably not, but here it is:
"What is it going to take; for the entire hobby, to retire DC and fully embrace DCC all the way down to the children's trainset level?"
A divided house cannot stand and I think in this age of production-to-order, manufactors will very much like to simplify the problem and just create DCC products only. They are, after all, dual mode already which can be operated on DC power.
For each of the Sound and DCC units they have produced in the past, they have made DC only engines availible at a lower pricing. And in some cases an extra effort to produce additional chassis with sound and DCC for those who decide that they want to upgrade to DCC.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
CAZEPHYR wrote: Safety Valve wrote: I recieved the MR today for the month and they have a timely review of this item.It stated that you have a 8 pin plug for a decoder.Now if only QSI will start making decoders. LOL. I probably will want a digitrax dual mode unit with 128 speed steps for this unit. The web site below gives some hints and possible choices on decoders with the Blue Line. http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/bline_hints.htmThe web site below is a preliminary type review on the SD40-2.http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/bline_sd402.htm
Safety Valve wrote: I recieved the MR today for the month and they have a timely review of this item.It stated that you have a 8 pin plug for a decoder.Now if only QSI will start making decoders. LOL. I probably will want a digitrax dual mode unit with 128 speed steps for this unit.
I recieved the MR today for the month and they have a timely review of this item.
It stated that you have a 8 pin plug for a decoder.
Now if only QSI will start making decoders. LOL. I probably will want a digitrax dual mode unit with 128 speed steps for this unit.
The web site below gives some hints and possible choices on decoders with the Blue Line.
http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/bline_hints.htm
The web site below is a preliminary type review on the SD40-2.
http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/bline_sd402.htm
Perfect! Thanks!
dhy4buva1 wrote: The BlueLine product isn't really a white elephant when you look at the prices at which you find it at your retailer. A modeler can get a hold of a BlueLine diesel, with sound for DC & upgradability to DCC (sound and motor control), for as low as $119.99 at retailers like www.factorydirecttrains.com. BLI has extended its reseller discount to dealers, in addition to lowering MSRP's to make the product more accessible to modelers. Also, if you look at differences in details, the new SD40-2 has thinner, more attractive handrails than its predecessor in the Paragon line.When you look at the price out-of-pocket, it is very obvious that the product fills a niche: the modeler who doesn't want to pay a lot for a locomotive with sound now gets a loco with sound for a price that rivals locomotives with no sound at all. Most of the guys who don't care to pay gobs for sound also don't care to pay the price it takes to run a DCC system, so it makes sense that BlueLine comes out of the box equipped for sound in DC. Now, for the guy who wants to get a great bargain on a sound equipped loco, but wants it to run on DCC, he just pays the $25 extra to buy the decoder of his choice, pops it in the plug 'n' play socket, and voila! He's running on DCC with sound, having paid under $145.
The BlueLine product isn't really a white elephant when you look at the prices at which you find it at your retailer. A modeler can get a hold of a BlueLine diesel, with sound for DC & upgradability to DCC (sound and motor control), for as low as $119.99 at retailers like www.factorydirecttrains.com. BLI has extended its reseller discount to dealers, in addition to lowering MSRP's to make the product more accessible to modelers. Also, if you look at differences in details, the new SD40-2 has thinner, more attractive handrails than its predecessor in the Paragon line.
When you look at the price out-of-pocket, it is very obvious that the product fills a niche: the modeler who doesn't want to pay a lot for a locomotive with sound now gets a loco with sound for a price that rivals locomotives with no sound at all. Most of the guys who don't care to pay gobs for sound also don't care to pay the price it takes to run a DCC system, so it makes sense that BlueLine comes out of the box equipped for sound in DC. Now, for the guy who wants to get a great bargain on a sound equipped loco, but wants it to run on DCC, he just pays the $25 extra to buy the decoder of his choice, pops it in the plug 'n' play socket, and voila! He's running on DCC with sound, having paid under $145.
I was told by a reliable source that the discount to dealers is 50% on the Blue Line. If this is true, the Blue Line is a marketing ploy to get BLI back into dealers stores. This large discount would allow the LHS to sell these at a lower price also and compete with other discount shops and still make some money.
simon1966 wrote: CAZEPHYR wrote: CacoleIt would seem that it is not a dual decoder if it cannot revert back to DC without removing the DCC decoder once it is installed. Not strictly true, go and read the manual link that I put in above. You can install a DCC motor decoder and run it on DC (assuming you used a dual mode DCC motor decoder) and it will run but may have the sound performance that it had prior to installing the DCC motor decoder. BLI specifically states this in the operating instructions for the loco.After reading the manual it is very clear that this is a dual mode sound and light DCC decoder. Not much different to the old Soundtraxx sound only decoders (except they would not work on DC) Without installing a DCC motor decoder you could place a Blue Line loco onto a DCC layout and program and operate the sounds.
CAZEPHYR wrote: CacoleIt would seem that it is not a dual decoder if it cannot revert back to DC without removing the DCC decoder once it is installed.
Cacole
It would seem that it is not a dual decoder if it cannot revert back to DC without removing the DCC decoder once it is installed.
Not strictly true, go and read the manual link that I put in above. You can install a DCC motor decoder and run it on DC (assuming you used a dual mode DCC motor decoder) and it will run but may have the sound performance that it had prior to installing the DCC motor decoder. BLI specifically states this in the operating instructions for the loco.
After reading the manual it is very clear that this is a dual mode sound and light DCC decoder. Not much different to the old Soundtraxx sound only decoders (except they would not work on DC) Without installing a DCC motor decoder you could place a Blue Line loco onto a DCC layout and program and operate the sounds.
The sound portion would have to work with the decoder on DCC, but the DC only operator would not have any way of changing or looking at the CV's.
They must expect many to purchase this and install their own decoder. The price is certainly right and the detail has been improved for the SD40-2 so it should be a good seller. I noticed they have already announced a second run.
BlueLine runs on DC just fine, even if you install a DCC decoder, but the quality of DC running is dependent on how the decoder that is installed deals with DC, not the BlueLine loco itself.
And yes, the BlueLine locos work without the DCMaster, although you need it for bell, whistle, AUX function and DC programming. You will still get prime-mover sounds, brake squeals, etc. (all automatic sounds).
Safety Valve wrote: Im troubled.Here we are talking and reading manuals in DCC speak where there should be no DCC on these engines.Are we dealing with SOUND DECODERS only on these things?If they DO have a decoder then why casterate them and do things halfway?! Put motor control in there and yer set. Make it a full DCC engine.Im thinking that I may feel strongly about an opinion to just ignore these Blue Line Products and stay with items that are either fully DCC at the factory with other manufactors or install my own DCC and sound into the analog engines which I am already trying to do this year.Im sorry, but questions that come up on the Blueline pushes me closer to the belief that we are seriously screwing up and confusing the aspiring modeler who wants a taste of DCC without the expensive systems that go with it. These engines would be no better than the el cheapo bomb systems that only give 1 amp and no read back CV ability.Where did we end up down here with these half breed engines that think they are DCC and yet are analogs?Friends, we need to stop doing this, this is not good.I think it is far better to offer an engine completely without sound/DCC and offer a seperate power chassis with sound AND DCC already installed READY to go for those that want it.On the ones without sound and DCC, speakers should be properly built with baffles and a socket provided so that a buyer may simply plug in thier own decoder of choice when they are ready.**Sweeps blueline manuals into the trashbin... all of this is confusing and unnecessary to our younger Modelers who may just be starting out in the land of DCC for the first time.I aspire to the KISS principle. Keep It Simple STUPID. One decoder, One locomotive.If I had to program a SOUND Decoder and THEN program a Digitrax or some aftermarket MOTOR decoder TOO after installing it... I think I would want Demerol and Versed to forget this whole stressful experience.I stick with buying analog engines from someone else and install my own speakers/decoder or QSI or similar fully equippted engines from the factory ready to go. I know I dont need to hit my head on the wall over this blueline crap. Apologies, but this is the last time I post here.
Im troubled.
Here we are talking and reading manuals in DCC speak where there should be no DCC on these engines.
Are we dealing with SOUND DECODERS only on these things?
If they DO have a decoder then why casterate them and do things halfway?! Put motor control in there and yer set. Make it a full DCC engine.
Im thinking that I may feel strongly about an opinion to just ignore these Blue Line Products and stay with items that are either fully DCC at the factory with other manufactors or install my own DCC and sound into the analog engines which I am already trying to do this year.
Im sorry, but questions that come up on the Blueline pushes me closer to the belief that we are seriously screwing up and confusing the aspiring modeler who wants a taste of DCC without the expensive systems that go with it. These engines would be no better than the el cheapo bomb systems that only give 1 amp and no read back CV ability.
Where did we end up down here with these half breed engines that think they are DCC and yet are analogs?
Friends, we need to stop doing this, this is not good.
I think it is far better to offer an engine completely without sound/DCC and offer a seperate power chassis with sound AND DCC already installed READY to go for those that want it.
On the ones without sound and DCC, speakers should be properly built with baffles and a socket provided so that a buyer may simply plug in thier own decoder of choice when they are ready.
**Sweeps blueline manuals into the trashbin... all of this is confusing and unnecessary to our younger Modelers who may just be starting out in the land of DCC for the first time.
I aspire to the KISS principle. Keep It Simple STUPID. One decoder, One locomotive.
If I had to program a SOUND Decoder and THEN program a Digitrax or some aftermarket MOTOR decoder TOO after installing it... I think I would want Demerol and Versed to forget this whole stressful experience.
I stick with buying analog engines from someone else and install my own speakers/decoder or QSI or similar fully equippted engines from the factory ready to go. I know I dont need to hit my head on the wall over this blueline crap.
Apologies, but this is the last time I post here.
Safety Valve, you make a valid point and I for one agree with you.
The KISS method cannot be ignored, and apparently BLI was comotose when it designed this white elephant.
cacole wrote: The in-house sound system developed by BLI for the Blue Line locomotives operates on a DC layout IF you have their add-on control box, which they don't say comes with the locomotive or is an extra that you must purchase separately.What troubles me is a statement in very small print on some of their advertising that indicates that once a DCC motor control decoder is installed, the engine should no longer be ran on a DC layout, even if the motor control decoder used is a dual-mode type. They don't say what harm can befall the sound system if you were to do so.So, to answer the original question, the Blue Line will run on a DC layout and the Blue Line's sound system is meant only for use on DC, because it does not include a DCC decoder. But the engine is DCC ready and once you add a DCC decoder you should never again attempt to run it on a DC layout.Their statements about DC and DCC operation are, to me, troubling.
The in-house sound system developed by BLI for the Blue Line locomotives operates on a DC layout IF you have their add-on control box, which they don't say comes with the locomotive or is an extra that you must purchase separately.
What troubles me is a statement in very small print on some of their advertising that indicates that once a DCC motor control decoder is installed, the engine should no longer be ran on a DC layout, even if the motor control decoder used is a dual-mode type. They don't say what harm can befall the sound system if you were to do so.
So, to answer the original question, the Blue Line will run on a DC layout and the Blue Line's sound system is meant only for use on DC, because it does not include a DCC decoder. But the engine is DCC ready and once you add a DCC decoder you should never again attempt to run it on a DC layout.
Their statements about DC and DCC operation are, to me, troubling.
I copied the following on bold from their advertisement. It is hard to believe the total savings for the Blue LIne is by the exorbtant licensing fees as they state. I would venture a guess they are taking a much lessor markup since many of their dealers and distributors are not the happiest people in the model trains world. If they can sell direct, you can cut almost 40% of of your price and still make the same.
Where does the savings come from? It comes from streamlining manufacturing processes and new technologies that we have developed in-house. We no longer pay the exorbitant licensing fees we have incurred in the past for our newly developed sound and control system. And by offering BlueLine in a DC sound, DCC-Ready configuration, we allow those who use DC only to save on features they don't need while allowing DCC users to inexpensively and quickly (plug ?n? play) convert to DCC
boxcar_jim wrote: davidmbedard wrote: ...perhaps to appeal to thoes who run away from the DCC label? Besides that, there is no real reason that I can think of.David B Hmm ... maybe David, but the non-DCC user didn't appear to be too heavily put off with the QSI DC/DCC decoders in the BLI Paragon series engines. I can't help thinking we are missing something else here ....
davidmbedard wrote: ...perhaps to appeal to thoes who run away from the DCC label? Besides that, there is no real reason that I can think of.David B
...perhaps to appeal to thoes who run away from the DCC label? Besides that, there is no real reason that I can think of.
David B
Hmm ... maybe David, but the non-DCC user didn't appear to be too heavily put off with the QSI DC/DCC decoders in the BLI Paragon series engines. I can't help thinking we are missing something else here ....
Maybe they'd like to see more DC Masters sold.
davidmbedard wrote: engineerjoey wrote:Stay away! It's a curr that is for people who refuse to learn DCC but ache for sound. It's gonna single handedly set back the hobby until BLI goes out of business.Curr? Curr is short for currency....do you mean cure? How is this going to set back the hobby? If you dont like the product, then dont buy it.Just because someone is buying a dual-mode sound-equipped locomotive, it doesnt mean that they REFUSE to learn DCC.David B
engineerjoey wrote:Stay away! It's a curr that is for people who refuse to learn DCC but ache for sound. It's gonna single handedly set back the hobby until BLI goes out of business.
Curr? Curr is short for currency....do you mean cure? How is this going to set back the hobby? If you dont like the product, then dont buy it.
Just because someone is buying a dual-mode sound-equipped locomotive, it doesnt mean that they REFUSE to learn DCC.
Cur = mutt/mongrel
Spelled it wrong.
I was a little harsh... Sorry. I'm very interested in this product and I've been following it. I just don't see how it can be anything other than a loser. As another poster stated, why not put a dual decoder in it for $1.00 more? In addition, I confess to being a little self righteous. When this baby was announced I predicted it would be unusual and unsually buggy. Now in the short time it's been on the shelves I've read many posts on a couple different forums that prove me out.
I'm such a fan of DCC and I'd like to see strict standards on it maintained. I wonder if the Blueline is 100% compliant with NMRA Standards?
Maybe, but I have all DCC with sound already except in my older models that I have purchased over the last forty years.
BLI opened up the market to sound but fell on their faces a few times. I for one hope they continue to be in business and offer decent low priced items.
The Blue line does seem resonable price wise and adding a decoder of my choice is good also. I reserved two of their future steam and will check out the reviews of the first sound units before I purchase the ones coming later.
simon1966 wrote: If you read the BlueLine manual it becomes clear that the electronics in the Blueline are essentially a DCC/DC compatible Sound/light decoder attached to a standard DC drive mechanism. The NMRA plug allows the insertion of a motor control decoder for DCC use. The installer has the option to disable light function from the BLI decoder and let them be run by the motor decoder. In DCC operation they indicate that the sound board is set to an ID of 03 just like any other decoder and that it should be set to the same address as the motor decoder. So yes, out of the box it is a DC only drive system, but the sounds are produced by what most would consider to be a DCC compatible sound decoder. In reality this would be no different than shipping a DC loco with a Digitrax or Soundtraxx sound only Decoder with DC capability.
If you read the BlueLine manual it becomes clear that the electronics in the Blueline are essentially a DCC/DC compatible Sound/light decoder attached to a standard DC drive mechanism. The NMRA plug allows the insertion of a motor control decoder for DCC use. The installer has the option to disable light function from the BLI decoder and let them be run by the motor decoder. In DCC operation they indicate that the sound board is set to an ID of 03 just like any other decoder and that it should be set to the same address as the motor decoder.
So yes, out of the box it is a DC only drive system, but the sounds are produced by what most would consider to be a DCC compatible sound decoder. In reality this would be no different than shipping a DC loco with a Digitrax or Soundtraxx sound only Decoder with DC capability.
Thanks. I was under the impression it just operated on DC and was not DCC operable in any way. Makes sense if the unit works with a DCC decoder also, it has to have some address.
Given the litigious nature of Model RR, it would not surprise me if leaving out motor control provides a get-out for a contract agreement with QSI for example. More than likely though it is being done as a marketing ploy to go after the DC modeller. The product description suggests some clever sound implementation in DC based on the slow increase in voltage. If you turn up your DC throttle too quickly then you miss out on some of the automatic effects.
Another thought is that perhaps BLI feels that BEMF and other forms of clever motor control are too closely protected and that the would not be able to provide good enough motor control without running foul of any number of other companies. This way they can leave the DCC motor control up to the owner. There are not many DCC users that would baulk at adding a $20 decoder.
Cacole, go the BLI site and read the manual if is up there in a PDF. No harm will come if you run it on DC with a decoder installed. But it will most likely not sound right They talk about this in the manual see page 9
http://www.broadway-limited.com/support/BlueLineDieselManual.pdf
Also, you don't have to have the DCmaster, though it is clear that there are important functions like bell and whistle that can't be active without.
It is very clear that the sound system is a DCC sound decoder, it uses DCC compatible CV's!
On the BLI website, they have instructions on programming the Blue line products. Did I miss something. I was under the general impression these were DC only and now they are listing how to program them.
Are they referring to the fact you might install a decoder into the model?? If that is the case, why would'nt you use the sheet on the DCC drive decoder??
I listed their web page and printed out the FAQ.
http://precisioncraftmodels.com/BlueLine-c3479.html#programmingFAQ
BlueLine DCC PROGRAMMING Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ): Q: What is the best method to program my BlueLine locomotives in DCC? A: We recommend programming BlueLine locomotives on the main in Ops mode. If you do not know the engine ID/Address, or if the engine does not respond, set CV08 to 8 on the PROGRAM track using direct mode programming. This will reset all onboard addresses to the factory default of 3. NCE PROCAB users, please note the following tips: 1. When changing from one 4-digit address to another 4-digit address, first reprogram the engine to engine 3. Then program to the new 4-digit address. 2. When programming on the program track, the NCE system will not be able to read the CV's from the BlueLine locomotives unless the PROCAB has the latest available firmware from NCE. The BlueLine engines can still be programmed. Simply press 'ENTER' when the controller gives the "CANNOT READ CV" message. DIGITRAX DT400 users, please note the following tips: 1. When changing from a 2-digit address to a 4-digit address, the system will ask if you want to enable 4-digit addressing. Respond by enter "Y". 2. When changing from a 4-digit address to a 2-digit address, you must first enter the address, then manually reset CV29 back to its default value of 6.