quote by CMarchan
************I was lucky enough to get close to GP7s and U18Bs and their crews on the SCL in Florida as a kid. There was street running in my neighborhood and I watched the process of kicking the cars. The sounds helped to sear the experience in my brain. Standing on the Tampa Union Station platform on Sunday afternoons watching SDP40Fs rev up for departure is still fresh in my mind. Having sound on my miniatures makes sense to me. Many of us link our model railroading with our memories of the prototype. The sounds are part of that memory. Now if I can record beer car generator sounds ......end quote
So well stated Carl.
I realize that this is why I'm so "gung-ho" about sound. IMHO, for a number of us, it is definetly the railfan memories that are cherished.
I could not fathom then in my teen years that those locomotives I saw, heard, and/or climbed aboard on, would become rare or extinct within a few years. Or that most of the friendly railroaders I met would retire or pass away. The sounds I hear today from Lok Sound, Soundtraxx, and QSI units are, indeed, a wonderful link to those past experiences.
Because of heightened security and frivilous lawsuits, it saddens me that today's younger model railroad/railfan generation does not have the easy access to cab rides, railroad yards, 1st & 2nd generation equipment, working railroaders, etc., that we had back in the 1970s and 80s (at least here in Florida). It was a cinch to experience the many unique nuances (especially sounds) of railroading up close and personal. A friendly, respectful attitude and good manners often made the difference back then.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
After skimming down the length of this thread, it's obvious that various people have very different reactions to on-board sound - and that I can agree with most of them. That said, the following is my considered opinion and is not subject to refutation based on anyone else's experience.
I am running silent, and will continue to do so.
My reasons, starting with realism:
And finishing with modeling considerations which only apply to me and my personal model railroad:
Finally, I am not into operating a single locomotive, or a single train. I am trying to simulate the operation of a railroad - which includes having several trains in motion at once. Under those conditions, I can't see sound as anything but an undesirable distraction.
Just my . Other opinions, equally valid, will differ.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I just got through wiring my roundhouse stall tracks. As someone who used to run DC, I automatically installed a toggle switch for each track when I put in the control panel, but then I got DCC, and realized that I didn't need to shut each track off individually. So, I tied all the leads together and just ran trains.
Then, I started to accumulate sound engines. I went back to the wiring, separated the leads and ran wires to the toggles. As much as I love sound, most of the time I don't want all of the engines chiming in. The QSI-equipped steamers can be cycled down to the dormant state, which they will remember even if I power off, but the diesels don't have that feature, and I have to shut the sound off individually each time I power up the layout.
But sometimes, when I'm doing scenery or other non-electrical layout work, I power everything up just to listen to engines while I'm doing the job.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley wrote:How do you feel about sound on your layout?
I must mimic some of the things others have said. Bad sound (e.g. MRC Brilliance) is worse than noise. Too loud sound (QSI default settings) is worse than silence. The current state of the art is no where close to being realistic in terms of the frequency response.
My experience is much the same as your's Mr B And yes I do feel sorry for my non sound equipped locos
I also have a number of DC locos that have lots of dust on them
One of my favorites is a Y-6 N&W Mallet so every once in a while I throw the toggle to DC and take it for a spin.
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
Sound is okay and all, but it gets on my nerves after a while, so I disabled it in all of my locos that have it. What can I say, I'm an old school model railroader...
Tracklayer
modelalaska wrote:... I will convert... a lot depends on how MRC follows through and how durable the decoder is when I get it back.Peter
When I first came into the hobby I went DCC/Sound. To me, running an engine with no sound is like watching television with the sound turned off. That said, I do own two or three silent locos simply because I couldn't find the model with sound. I like them, they're Atlas' and one Bachmann (4-4-0), but I wish they had sound. I certainly agree that you have to go into the CV's and tweak the sound. The way it comes out of the box would scare anyone away from sound. My own personal taste is that I bring up the volume of the diesel motor a little and if turbo equipped, I'll bring it up a little also. Bells are turned down to where they're just audible and horns/whistles are at about 1/2 volume. NO sound is at full volume. That would make the most ardent diehard sound fan leave a room in short order. I can have a couple of diesels idleing, especially when they're placed in 'standby' using the double tap on the function 9 key and they sound great. I have a friend that has almost all NW steamers and everytime I go over he'll have a two or three sitting in the yard, powered up and sound on. He says it's too dead in there without it.
Two of the diesels that I own that, to me have the best sound I've heard is this one..
http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/HOLocomotives/hodash8/9606.JPG
and a BlI C30-7. They both have remarkable sound. I tried to link to the BLI page that has the sound file but couldn't. If you've never heard it, try it. I just ordered a Baldwin 2-8-0 consoladation, Bachmann... with sound. I hope its a good one.
Jarrell
Ted Marshall wrote:Who wants my Athearn RTR's? No sound, nor potential for sound in the future.I'll probably never run them again except as helpers in a consist if I can figure how to speed match them with my QSI BLI's.
Who wants my Athearn RTR's?
No sound, nor potential for sound in the future.
I'll probably never run them again except as helpers in a consist if I can figure how to speed match them with my QSI BLI's.
What kind of locos? I love sound, but it's WAAYY to expensive for me. I ran a pair of sound equiped locos at my old train club, and never wanted to stop!
Sound gives a new dimension! Running a steam engine by your ears is another fun.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
Usually, I stay out of big threads... but I had to jump in on this one. Sound for ME!
About year and half ago I made the rule for myself....no more non-sound engines. Yeah, some people complain, too many and you cant hear... true. but I have figured outhow to turn down the sounds to more or less you cant hear it unless you are running it. Take the sound to about 30% and leave the controbale sounds at about 60%, suchy as horn and bell, and its perfect.
I still run my non sound engines.. still like them as there are a few times were I crank the stero for music, have a cold one and run trains....doesnt really matter about sound.
A Sound Equipped DCC engines is something right out my wildest dreams as a 12 year old. I swear thats half the reason I but them.......
Best Regards, Big John
Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway
A most articulate and thoughtful post, jeffers.
-Crandell
I've been into trains since I was two or three. There was a Nickle Plate 2-8-2 at a city park a couple blocks away from our home, and the Monon line passed a block away in the other direction. My friends and I played on the steam engine everytime we visited the park, and when we weren't at the park, we had a locomotive "cab" in the tree in our front yard.
Every day the Monon would pick up and drop cars at the nearby lumber yard, and that's probably what I remember best. You could hear that powerful diesel from a long way away, long before you could see it, and it was maddening to be able to hear it but not see it. I wasn't allowed to cross the street by myself so I'd bug my mom till she set aside whatever she was doing to take me over to watch the train. He must have had a pretty complicated routine at the lumber year, because it seemed to take forever for him to get done and heave into view, straining hard on a grade, from a dead stop while dropping cars, those big diesel prime movers lugging and thundering with the strain.
I think the delays were why mom was so reluctant to go, there was false start after false start, and she wasted a lot of time waiting with me so I could see the train. One of the only whippings I remember from that era was because I got caught across the street with an older "Eddie Haskell" type, standing next to the tracks, waiting for the train. Wooden spoon across my rear end and I didn't break that rule any more.
Anyway, sound is a big part of the whole experience for me. Even so, I can understand why people try it and turn it off. For starters, it would be pretty unusual in the real world to hear 5 or 10 different trains at once, like you might in a club setting. I think a train deserves it's own soundspace. In a yard you might hear several things going on at once, but on a mainline, I want to hear one at a time, period. If not in total isolation, at least front and center in the soundspace.
Another decided defect in DCC sound is the frequency response, whih creates pain well beyond the too familiar absence of powerful bass. I've read where a baby's crying is pitched so as to cause maximum distress in the adults nearby, a survival mechanism, and product of evolution honed over thousands of years to ensure that the baby gets the attention it needs because the crying is impossible to ignore, or withstand.
Unfortunately, as a product of the tiny speakers in onboard sound decoders, the frequency response in many model train sound systems peaks around the center of audibility in humans, in the speech range, and to my ears, the incomplete slice of the frequency spectrum of DCC sound has much of the same nasally whining of a baby's cry, irritating regardless of what it was meant to simulate. In audio terminology, it is a high mid-rangy, "nasally" or "honky", sound.
This is compounded by the use of low power amplifiers in the decoders. Low power, plus small speakers tends to cause people to turn them up as far as possible, and in any audio chain, overdriven amplifiers result in severe harmonic distortion. The cheap old sound cars suffer the same problem, this is where the "statickey" sound comes from. Turn them down to 50 or 70% of "full power", reduce the extraneaus noise so you can hear them, and the static goes away, providing you haven't already damaged the speaker.
Here on the layout, sound has several things going for it, designed to overcome the inherent shortcomings of miniature models. We use stationary, full range speakers, with several layers of equalization possible. A amplifier/speaker system capable of handling hundreds of watts of RMS power doesn't have to be used at full volume to shine. In fact, the closer you get to the edge of the system's capabilities, the LESS faithful the sound reproduction becomes.
A much better use for a full range system is to use it, to extend to the bitter limit, the frequency response of the system. If a given amp/speaker combo has trouble reproducing frequencies outside it's nominal range, these frequencies do not simply disappear, they roll off gradually, 3 or 6 or 12 decibels per octave. Assuming the extreme lows and high frequencies are present in the source material, by using successive layers of equalization, you can cut the "hump" out of the frequency response curve, and significantly extend the range of frequencies reproducible at "flat" amplitude levels, for increased fidelity in the reproduction.
In simple terms, you don't need to shake paint off the ceiling to get pantleg fluttering bass, or the airy highs that put you "there" whereever "there" is for you. You need a system capable of shaking paint off the ceiling, that is properly tuned to produce the extreme lows and hghs lacking in most sound systems. Of course, if you...want...to shake paint off the ceiling, with a ...frightening...consist of massive diesels...at full power, or if you...enjoy..."playing''...an airhorn, well, that's available too.
Finally, you need a very handy set of "off" switches. The last thing a modeller wants to hear is thundering baby-whine-static, when he's trying to figure out why a car keeps coming uncoupled or why one wheel won't traverse a turnout without derailing. An "all off" switch is a very handy thing to have. Other controls are useful too.
We use a small Behringer 12 channel mixer, designed for simple home studios, to control sound from the various sources. It allows you to feed 4 monaural sources, and four stereo output pairs in, control the volume, pan, and equalization of each, and feed them out to a stereo amp and speakers, or, as is the case here, out to the stereo inputs of a PC equipped with a 5.1 soundcard. It has a stereo headphone jack for late night operations, and one effects send, where you can send a controllable amount of signal from any one or more channel, to an outboard sound processor, and then bring the processed sound back into the mix. We use that for an additional stage of equalization on the layout. This unit goes for around $100 new, but we picked one up used for $25.
Coming into the mixer, we have two, soon to be four, MRC Synchro units on mono channels, and the stereo headphone output from the PC's CD/DVD player. Looping the CD signal out of the PC this way, then feeding it through the inputs of the PC, while the PC doesn't have to process the audio, frees CPU cycles up to play saved samples, of anything you might wish. Triggered by coded keystrokes from the keyboard, we can time train sounds, horns, whistles, brakes, and most dramatic, well crafted bypasses, left to right or right to left, along with animal, weather, insect, industry and other samples at will. This eliminates the onboard sound problem of train sounds emanating from tunnels, miles away. On the left to right samples of certain bypasses, we roll off the highs and upper midrange frequqncies shortly after closest point of approach, because that mainline disappears into a tunnel at that point, and the muffled "Tunnel" sound is both fun and realistic, at least from comments made to date.
As many others have pointed out, sound, like any other element of this hobby, is what you make of it. If a modeller hates to craft scenery, or do wiring, odds are he will move past those stages as quickly as possible, and hope that other areas of his layout compensate for the lesser detail and effort. For me, sound is like a backdrop, and a bare empty area in the foreground of the layout.
It is a canvas, waiting to be filled with sparkling detail, with a faded background wash to draw attention back to the foreground, with gritty reality, (we have a "bear eating bones" sample that get a fair response when triggered), with whatever you decide to fill it with. It's your layout, let your imagination run wild.
loathar wrote:I spend too much time and effort to make things run quite. Why turn around and spend $$$ to make them noisy again? Just one more costly gadget to malfunction and cause problems and arguments. Pass! (I have my stereo cranked up all the time anyhow.)
psst, don't tell him to play Tomita's version of Pacific 231 on his stereo....
I have tinkered with sound for a long time. Having put a modeltronics chuff into a Y6b.
But I bought the BLI 2-6-6-4 and Bachmanns ezDCC, I never had more entertainment out of an engine that never creeped one inch.
Its been my long goal to replicate the feel of the N&W drag freights up long mountains and Sound just helps make it work.
Just imagine me getting 2 Y6B's towing a freight with a pusher behind with all that sound flying...
creeping at 20 smph, just wow.
AntonioFP45 wrote: I'm surprised at some of the responses here that put down sound. I've had "Athearn growlers" for years and, imho, they don't come close to the sounds of EMD 567s/645s, GE FDLs, or Alco 241s/251s. Cmarchand's "Athearn tune-up" method helps eliminate most of that growl.
I'm surprised at some of the responses here that put down sound. I've had "Athearn growlers" for years and, imho, they don't come close to the sounds of EMD 567s/645s, GE FDLs, or Alco 241s/251s. Cmarchand's "Athearn tune-up" method helps eliminate most of that growl.
Thanks Tony for the reference, but I cannot take the credit; several modelers on this forum, jeffrey-wimberly and BRAKIE, to name two, are among the successful Athearn mechanics that contributed feedback and information.
************
I was lucky enough to get close to GP7s and U18Bs and their crews on the SCL in Florida as a kid. There was street running in my neighborhood and I watched the process of kicking the cars. The sounds helped to sear the experience in my brain. Standing on the Tampa Union Station platform on Sunday afternoons watching SDP40Fs rev up for departure is still fresh in my mind. Having sound on my miniatures makes sense to me. Many of us link our model railroading with our memories of the prototype. The sounds are part of that memory. Now if I can record beer car generator sounds ......
Carl in Florida - - - - - - - - - - We need an HO Amtrak SDP40F and GE U36B oh wait- We GOT THEM!
tstage wrote: Yea, the recent advent of sound into individual locomotives is pretty neat technology. But DCC - by far - is waaaaaay better in my book. I probably only run sound about 30% of the time I'm operating on my layout. To me, DCC is like cake and sound is like icing. Eating cake without icing is still very delicious. But icing by itself? It's only tasty in smaller doses.Tom
Yea, the recent advent of sound into individual locomotives is pretty neat technology. But DCC - by far - is waaaaaay better in my book. I probably only run sound about 30% of the time I'm operating on my layout.
To me, DCC is like cake and sound is like icing. Eating cake without icing is still very delicious. But icing by itself? It's only tasty in smaller doses.
Tom
I couldn't help but laugh at that similie.
Ted Marshall wrote: Who wants my Athearn RTR's? No sound, nor potential for sound in the future.I'll probably never run them again except as helpers in a consist if I can figure how to speed match them with my QSI BLI's.
Me..lol.
tatans wrote:Electromotive: has this hobby got to the point where we actually have to use "scale" distances and "scale" decibles to enjoy the authenticity of model railroading????? I guess no one ever thought with the introduction of sound there might be an upper limit to volume (louder is better) now that we have sound, what's next? smell? moisture? temperature? there will be a load of new "stuff" coming, so get used to it. How does the volume setting work? the first guy there gets to set the volume control or the guy with the poorest hearing???
I'm not saying that the sound has to scale exactly to 1/87.1 (which would be near impossible), but some effort on the part of manufacturers to use a more reasonable default setting wouln't hurt. It seems almost a step backwards in this era where manufacturers are starting to take "realism"* (for lack of a better word) more and more seriously to have such "unreal" sound, at least in terms of volume.
* By "realism", I mean that they're generally putting out more accurate models, with more accurate paint schemes and road/era specific detail.
My experience with sound has been entirely confined to experiencing what other members are running at the club, but so far I haven't had a favorable impression. I'm pretty sure that it's the volume, which is way, way, way too loud in nearly all cases, but the locos' owners don't want to adjust the volume. I get the impression that for some people, since the engine has sound it doesn't make any sense not to blast it, no matter how unrealistic it might be (or how annoying to everyone else).
Lately, I've made it a habit of hiding in the back whenever there's more than one sound unit going at a time; it's hard to bear sometimes. I really wish that more people would consider the scale distances involved and realize that you're not going to hear a steam engine from miles away, especially when it's in a tunnel several (scale) miles away.
Perhaps some or all of the problem in this case is that the layout is DC, and so there's no easy way to change the volume, short of opening the unit up and physically adjusting something (when this option is available). Nevertheless, it's certainly served to keep me from buying any sound units (well, that along with the inflated pricing).
For me and some of the modelers I know we, absolutely, positively, no doubt about it, hands down enjoy it!
Seems that a bit of common sense is what's needed when running sound operated units.
The HO scale GE 4 axle U Boats (30-33-36) are approximatley 8 inches long. The prototypes are 60ft. 2in long. As a teen and young adult I spent a lot of time around the prototypes. As LOUD as those GE monsters were I could not hear them over 1/4 mile distance unless they were running at high rpms. Only the horns were clearly audible. Bells were audible at approximately 1/8th mile. On a windy day the prime movers were even less audible at a distance. (Yes, I'm talking typical central and east coast U.S.A. Not mountainous terrain where trains can be heard miles away)
Only my opinion: Translate this into 1/87th scale HO scale (simple arithmetic plus selective compression using the GE U Boats mentioned above). At a club layout, a sound equipped HO U Boat's (or any other diesel's) prime mover should be barely audible or not audible at approximately 10 to 15 ft. The horn should be the only feature heard. This is taking into account that the scenery and structures will absorb some of the sound. Of course, on a flat layout with sparse scenery, the sound would have to be "adjusted down" even further.
I'm not an acoustics expert by any means and this is not "by the book". It's a simplified rule of thumb to go by for those concerned that sound can become too loud to the point of being an annoyance.
John Busby wrote: Hi Mr BeasleyHaving had sound fitted large scale loco's and the old hornby syncro sound as wellI have also endured it at exhibitions.Sound annoys the living out of me I can tolerate it for 3 seconds.The perfect cure for sound is to switch it off, disable it, or hit the sound unit with a very big hammer failing that hit the loco with a very big hammer.Then its ahh!!!! I can hear my self think and enjoy my hobby again.regards John
Hi Mr Beasley
Having had sound fitted large scale loco's and the old hornby syncro sound as well
I have also endured it at exhibitions.
Sound annoys the living out of me I can tolerate it for 3 seconds.
The perfect cure for sound is to switch it off, disable it, or hit the sound unit with a very big hammer failing that hit the loco with a very big hammer.
Then its ahh!!!! I can hear my self think and enjoy my hobby again.
regards John
You have made a great point about sound and model railroads. It can be too loud, but I personally believe sound is the greatest advancement in the hobby in many years.
Installed sound in models has generated more sales for the manufacturers from many of us who had all of the models we needed after forty years of buying model trains. I would not have purchased any of the more recent plastic or die cast metal models without sound since I already own most of the models now offered from my past years of model railroading.
Sound should be in scale since most home and club layouts do not allow the sound to go out of our hearing distance. It is very annoying to hear ten or more models all chuffing or motors running and horns blowing no matter where they are on the layout. We recorded some of the first sound models on a club layout in a room that is 40' by 100' and you could hear five to ten locomotives at the same time. Every single model had the sound at the default value and it was annoying to say the least.
If the sound is scaled down so you only hear it as it is within ten feet or so, it is much more enjoyable overall. A train should come into sight and its sound should began at that time so it is like a prototype experience.
espee3004 wrote: We learned very quickly when running several sound equiped locomotives at the same time to turn the sound waaaay down.RalphAmargosa Railroad
We learned very quickly when running several sound equiped locomotives at the same time to turn the sound waaaay down.
Ralph
Amargosa Railroad
Had the sound been a tad lower I doubt if sound would bother me even after 1 1/2-2 hours.However,6 hours of blasting sound is a tad to much.
I am not one to complain about the other guys enjoying their selves at the club.However,respect works both ways.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
My layout is set in the mid 1960's, but one day I was at my LHS and he was running a P2K 0-6-0 with sound. I had to have it, era-appropriate or not. After running it on my layout, I made the decision to go dual-era so I could run more steam engines. I picked up a few of the Athearn Model-T's that recently came out, and some of the P2K Mather box cars.
The fun of sound is much greater with steam, in my opinion. All the chuffing and steam releases add more to the layout than diesel sounds.