boxcar_jim wrote: On the negative side the Tsunami is a nightmare to program, but its worth the effort.
cmarchan wrote: CAZEPHYR,When creating sound samples from existing recordings, it is best to use a program with a display allowing you to enlarge the audio image patterns so you can see where the waveform crosses the horizontal zero line, or where there is a background grid so you can begin and end your waveform on the same horizontal axis. This will eliminate ticks and pops as you transistion from the intro, through the loop (this is where it is the most important) to the beginning of the exit sample. The loop is the most difficult; ideally you want a sample that has a tone that does not warble unprototypically (some horns warble slightly when blown for long cycles). I prefer to use the zero db line as the reference for all my samples. Since my last post, ESU has modified their project files, disallowing you to extract sounds for manipulation; this was done to protect their sound samples from competitors; however you can still import samples and transfer them from one sound project to another. If you like, I can send you examples of sounds I've created so you can view the waveform patterns.
CAZEPHYR,
When creating sound samples from existing recordings, it is best to use a program with a display allowing you to enlarge the audio image patterns so you can see where the waveform crosses the horizontal zero line, or where there is a background grid so you can begin and end your waveform on the same horizontal axis. This will eliminate ticks and pops as you transistion from the intro, through the loop (this is where it is the most important) to the beginning of the exit sample. The loop is the most difficult; ideally you want a sample that has a tone that does not warble unprototypically (some horns warble slightly when blown for long cycles). I prefer to use the zero db line as the reference for all my samples.
Since my last post, ESU has modified their project files, disallowing you to extract sounds for manipulation; this was done to protect their sound samples from competitors; however you can still import samples and transfer them from one sound project to another. If you like, I can send you examples of sounds I've created so you can view the waveform patterns.
Carl
Thanks. I send an email to you so you have my direct email to send the waveform patterns and information.
CAZEPHYR
Carl in Florida - - - - - - - - - - We need an HO Amtrak SDP40F and GE U36B oh wait- We GOT THEM!
cmarchan wrote: WOW! As a electronics instructor and professional DCC installer, I found the responses on this thread interesting. However let's look at some solutions....1. If you are using Loksound decoders, I strongly recommend purchasing the programmer and join the Loksound users group on Yahoo. There you will find a tool to extract the sounds from the Loksound project files. Get a sound editing program, like Audacity and increase the horn sounds (or any other sounds of your choice) 3 to 6 decibels; not only can you do this, but with a little practice, you can use horn or whistle recordings to create your own samples, but that's another topic (I'll explain further if someone is interested). used to give the volume and frequency bandwidth of a single speaker over 2 times the size.The coupling capacitor for Soundtraxx units serve two purposes; to isolate the amplifer's DC offset from the speakers and to prevent low frequencies from damaging small speakers incapable of handling such output.
WOW! As a electronics instructor and professional DCC installer, I found the responses on this thread interesting. However let's look at some solutions....
1. If you are using Loksound decoders, I strongly recommend purchasing the programmer and join the Loksound users group on Yahoo. There you will find a tool to extract the sounds from the Loksound project files. Get a sound editing program, like Audacity and increase the horn sounds (or any other sounds of your choice) 3 to 6 decibels; not only can you do this, but with a little practice, you can use horn or whistle recordings to create your own samples, but that's another topic (I'll explain further if someone is interested).
used to give the volume and frequency bandwidth of a single speaker over 2 times the size.
The coupling capacitor for Soundtraxx units serve two purposes; to isolate the amplifer's DC offset from the speakers and to prevent low frequencies from damaging small speakers incapable of handling such output.
Cmarchan
you can use horn or whistle recordings to create your own samples, but that's another topic (I'll explain further if someone is interested).
Yes, I am interested in knowing more about building individual files that can be downloaded.
I have the Loksound Programmer and would like to know more about connecting the first portion of the whistle to the loop and then the completion. I know they have to be in sync but that is a hard thing to get right.
Thanks
cmarchan wrote:WOW! As a electronics instructor and professional DCC installer, I found the responses on this thread interesting. However let's look at some solutions....<<<SNIP>>>
<<<SNIP>>>
now that's an expert opinion !
thanks Carl , answers like yours are one of the reasons i love this forum
Hello Carl,
I use Loksound and have the programmer and also have the Loksound file extractor. I have Audacity and while playing with it I'm able to load the Loksound horn file to increase the horn decibles. But the file becomes unusable because instead of just the 1 second or less duration, all three horn files have different horn sound duration, all 3 files, int, loop, and exit have a 5 second sound duration after the new decilbels change.
If you would explain how to increase the decibles on the Loksound horn sound files using Audacity most appreciated.
Thanks,
Paul
with the $140 msrp, I have to say I was less than impressed with this decoder, is it a decent decoder? yes, how about the sound? just OK, nothing special here, is it 100 dollars good? not even close.
will I pull them out and replace them? no, but I will not be rushing out to buy another, or to spend more for a programmer to make them better, unless the price comes way, way down.
fifty dollar performance, hundred dollar price.
2. Overall volume - good results can be achieved with Loksound speakers and decoders; in some cases they are as loud and some factory installed units; most modelers have some preconcieved ideas regarding speaker placement. Many of the installations I have seen do not offer the best speaker placement or enclosure configuration; each locomotive type is different in terms of the following; shell, weight block (as in Proto units) and chassis. The same approach does not work the best for each locomotive design; sometimes, for example creating an infinite baffle will generate better sound (deeper, richer tones, louder output) than using a typical pre-fab enclosure. For those of you with collections of QSI sound-equipped units; open them and look at their approaches; you will find different chassis designs, speaker placements and sound chambers. Speaking of QSI, it is unfair to directly compare the sound of any QSI sound system to aftermarket sound systems because the amplifier output and impedance (16 ohms NOT 8 ohms) are not the same as the others; in most cases two colocated speakers are used to give the volume and frequency bandwidth of a single speaker over 2 times the size.
3. Larger coupling capacitors with Soundtraxx decoders - yes you can get more output with a larger coupling capacitor. Why? Ok here goes..
Xc in ohms = 1/ 6.28 x f x C) or Capacitive Reactance in ohms is equal to the inverse of 2 pi times the frequency times the capacitance in farads. Capacitor's reactance (like resistance but frequency dependent) increases as the frequency decreases; i.e., low tones like a heavy steam whistle will create a higher reactance and lower the output to the speaker; in fact the Xc of a 33 microfarad capacitor is 9 ohms at 500 cycles. At 250 cycles, 19 ohms.
If you increase the capacitor by 10 - 330 microfarads, the output to the speaker is greater because the Xc is now .9 ohms not 9 ohms.
Another tip: the mylar speakers rated at .1 watt to .5 watt create higher output than the one watt speakers because less current is required to achive the rated SPL (sound pressure level). BTW QSI uses .1 watt round mylar speakers in most of their installations.
4. Bipolar electrolytic capacitors - used for coupling because the potential difference changes polarity across them (sound is AC not DC). Do not use standard electrolytic (polarized) capacitors for coupling. Polarized caps are used for hold-up with DSX decoders, Digitrax decoders, Tsunami and QSI factory installed decoders) they bridge the gap of power when current dropout occurs; i.e., dirty track or dirty wheels.
popeye9941 wrote: The DSD LC was easy to modify by adding capacitors, in effect, raising the gain.Are you saying that you can raise the volume by adding capacitors, or larger capacitors? One of Tonys Tips, said to use the largest capacitor that you could fit into the unit. However, Soundtraxx includes a small 33uf capacitor with their decoders. I asked Tonys why, and they said Soundtraxx furnished the 33uf capacitor, because of it's size, it would fit more engines.Also what is the deal with the Bipolar capacitors? All of the capacitors I have seen, at Radioshack, are polarized. What difference would this make? Where would I get Bipolar capacitors in various sizes?
The DSD LC was easy to modify by adding capacitors, in effect, raising the gain.
Are you saying that you can raise the volume by adding capacitors, or larger capacitors? One of Tonys Tips, said to use the largest capacitor that you could fit into the unit. However, Soundtraxx includes a small 33uf capacitor with their decoders. I asked Tonys why, and they said Soundtraxx furnished the 33uf capacitor, because of it's size, it would fit more engines.
Also what is the deal with the Bipolar capacitors? All of the capacitors I have seen, at Radioshack, are polarized. What difference would this make? Where would I get Bipolar capacitors in various sizes?
Bipolar caps won't work. You will need to get a schematic from National Semiconductor on the LM386 to see where you need to solder the capacitors to raise the gain.
The difference between polar and bipolar capacitors is the way they are internally wrapped. If you have ever taken an electrolytic capacitor apart, you will see that it is nothing more than aluminum and wax paper. There are other foils and dielectics used as well, but aluminum and wax paper is the simplest.
The DSD also uses two LM386 IC's (whay, I don't know), but one of them could probably be eliminated.
I have been getting my parts from Digi-Key. Radio Shack is not much of a helper, unless you are getting a new phone.
davidmbedard wrote: In terms of the horn 'issue'.....has anyone tried extracting that wav sound, adjusting the volume via a sound-editing program and re-downloading it to the decoder?If I were a guessing man....I would guess that LokSound decoder does this on purpose. From my experience, the horn sound is the only sound that really tests the speaker.....it tests it's limit. It could be that the Ahilles' heal of the LokSound decoder is the 100 ohm speaker. It just cant handle the extremities of the horn.(hence the LACK of a capacitor).....but this is just a guess.David
In terms of the horn 'issue'.....has anyone tried extracting that wav sound, adjusting the volume via a sound-editing program and re-downloading it to the decoder?
If I were a guessing man....I would guess that LokSound decoder does this on purpose. From my experience, the horn sound is the only sound that really tests the speaker.....it tests it's limit. It could be that the Ahilles' heal of the LokSound decoder is the 100 ohm speaker. It just cant handle the extremities of the horn.(hence the LACK of a capacitor).....but this is just a guess.
David
Yes, on purpose. The ESU decoders have a 1/2 watt audio amplifier. They are probably not being driven to their full potential, because if they were, the decoders would be larger as the capacitors need space (a capacitor is limited in size physically by it's rating) so- to design an audio circuit eliminating all or most of the capacitors, you are going to eclipse some of the output. Soundtraxx LC did the same thing, though they used dual LM386 amplifiers, and only the one capacitor for the user to solder in as a DC filter.
In order to keep things simple, or to limit size, these audio circuits were designed with the default gains. The DSD LC was easy to modify by adding capacitors, in effect, raising the gain.
The ESU decoders will need a booster designed due to the nature of their construction.
Dont get me wrong. But ESU decoders are good at home. But take one to the shows and run it on a module with all the noise and croud of people and it just sounds funny listining to the bell ring and this minute noise of a horn. For the money IMHO the soundtrax Tsunami is tops and the discontinued LC280 for steam cant be beet. QSI for diesel.
I have a power cab at home and have not had a decoder it wouldnt program. Even QSI on the program track. I cant see spending good hobby dollars for the ESU programer to change sounds and reprogram. A member of my club has 4 ESU decoders and the programer and has tried every horn sound hes found and still week.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
I have now got 4 different types of sound units installed in various locos: Soundtraxx Tsunami, BLI / QSI, ESU Loksound and Soundtraxx LC.
By far the best, the clearest and certainly the loudest is the Soundtraxx Tsunami. I have a feeling that the clarity comes from the 16bit sound, it would be wonderful if the other manufacturers upgraded their systems. Of course Soundraxx still haven't released any Tsunami diesel sounds yet. On the negative side the Tsunami is a nightmare to program, but its worth the effort.
I find the ESU the second best in terms of clarity, but like others here would like the horn to be louder compared to the other sounds. On the whole the 100ohm speakers seem to produce less volume than the equivalent size 8ohm used by other manufacturers. On the plus side I found this decoder really easy to install and program; no boosters or having to Ops mode program only here.
I have noticed a big difference between the diesel and steam sounds in BLI locos, with the diesel sounds being much clearer and having better bass response (even from the single tiny speaker inside the SW7). I found that the BLI steam locos can be really loud (2 x 0.75" or 1.1" speakers can move some air) but volume doesn't equal clarity; at high volume you get things resonating on the shell of the tender or the whistle staring to distort. I can't believe this is from the sounds on the chip and only conclude that the steam loco speakers aren't doing the job properly - I intend to experiment with improving the air tightness and trial some different speakers in my BLI Light Mike.
I would rate the sound quality of the steam Soundtraxx LC higher than the BLI steam, but not diesel sounds. Of course these decoders have other issues and are both "budget" and now old technology, so again I think this comes down to good speakers and installation.
I have my Reading T1 set aside to be re-programmed at Tony's at some point in the future, the bell is definately louder than the horn/whistle. Im still working on that.
The BLI F units in full volume makes the body details like the vent panels shake. LOL.
I have heard Lok Sound units on my friend's locomotives. They are not as loud as BLI units, but I found the sound and volume to exceed my expectations of quality and clarity.
BLI/QSI units are quite loud indeed at full volume. Guys, do you think that we are using QSI's system as the benchmark for measuring sound volume?
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
locoi1sa wrote: Have they fixed the horn volume? All the Loksound decoders Ive heard the bell was louder than the horn. Mine is set to max and bell is 1/4 volume. At shows you can barly hear the horn. Pete
Have they fixed the horn volume? All the Loksound decoders Ive heard the bell was louder than the horn. Mine is set to max and bell is 1/4 volume. At shows you can barly hear the horn.
Finally; Somebody else had guts enough to stand up, and talk about the horn lacking volume on the ESU.
I too posted a thread about this same issue, but others thought it was all in my head, or else I didn't know what I was doing.
Glad to know that I am not the only one.
In the meantime, I am trying to design a 1 watt booster to raise the volume up. This will take some time as I have other priorities.
And, and, the ditch lights don't work like they are supposed to- but now, they have the software to correct this.
On the + side, the motor controller is outstanding, and I believe they are very reliable. I have played the heck out of the two 3.5's that I have, and they have been absolutely flawless.
THANK YOU!
davidmbedard wrote: The 16 Mbit is just the memory size. It is still a V3.5 decoder....8bit sound.David
The 16 Mbit is just the memory size. It is still a V3.5 decoder....8bit sound.
So there is nothing different from the 8 Mbit decoder?
Esu released new locksound decoder with 16Mbit from the start of this year.
Did enyone used or hear the new decoder?