My N scale PRR Middle Division is "proto-lanced" in that it represents a fictional segment of the real Pennsy Middle Division. The trains are correct, but the town names are only approximate.
Recently, I've been preparing a possible magazine feature on the layout for one of the N scale publications. As I wrote the story I re-hashed my original reasoning for going "proto-lance." The idea was, even using LDEs, I was not going to have room to do justice to real scenes on the PRR Middle Division.
However, I've also been toying with ideas for the future "big one." Inspired by Mr Neal Schorr's O-scale 3 rail PRR Middle Division layout in 2007 MRP, I've decided that the future "big one" is going to be:
Continuous running over 2-4 (Atlas Code 55) tracks (extended sidings and switch leads will give the appearance of the 4-track main, while for operation's sake it'll be more like 2). Run-through visible staging representing Altoona at one end and Enola on the other. Locations along the line will include Perdix, Sherman's Creek, Duncannon, Mifflin/Mifflintown, the Narrows, Lewistown, Granville, and possibly Huntingdon. At Lewistown I'll include the Milroy Secondary and the Standard Steel plant at Burnham. This would be on a peninsula.
To get there from here, I plan to start converting the current layout to more prototypical locales. For starters, Lewisport may become Mifflin, with a kitbashed Walther's AT&SF depot replacing the current generic Atlas one:
Jack's Run becomes its inspiration, Spruce Creek:
East Mifflin has a passenger shelter similar to Millerstown, but the tower wouldn't have been there. Then again, selective compression can be used! Did Newport have a passenger shelter, or was it just a tower (PORT Interlocking)?
The coal mine is kind of a geographical oddity. Most of the coal on the PRR Middle Division originated west of Altoona or on the Clearfield Branch which connected via the Bald Eagle Branch at Tyrone. Of course, the H&BTM and EBT hauled coal to the Middle Division at Huntingdon and Mt Union, respectively. I'll keep the coal branch "proto-lanced" for now.
Comments welcome!!!
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Some real nice stuff, Dave, I wouldn't worry much about how prototypical the coal is. Some modeler's license is always allowed, especially if you have the advantage of the additional industry on the layout itself.
I like the elevation changes to the scenery. Is the layout open grid or stacked foam?
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Thanks! It's actually all stacked foam. The base is a hollow-core door and the track level is the top of a 2" sheet of foam. All below-track terrain has been carved from the foam. It's a very efficient and sturdy way to have below-track topography.
As for pototype, I plan to do better next time. My operating sequence is based on actual trains on the 1956 Middle Division, so having the actual towns means I can use schedules as well as sequence. Some day, anyway.
Nice work! Your photos make the layout look really big.
My Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JR7582 My Flickr Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wcfan/
Dave Vollmer wrote:Thanks for the kind words. Small layouts are great because they can be detailed in a person's lifetime!
The only reason I like Large layouts is the main line. You can have long trains and big loco consitsis.
Dave,
One thing to keep in mind is that with model railroading, we just can't model the real thing exactly. Even for a short little railroad like the one my layout is based on, at a mere 33 miles, it's way bigger then I could ever hope to portray exactly. The Pennsy is just a little bigger then 33 miles, and so, it also can't be exact. I know that you know this, but sometimes it helps me to touch base with this thought myself.
As such, what we're really after on our layouts is the "flavor" of the railroad being modeled. Some like to follow the prototype quite closely, or in other words, they like a LOT of flavor. Some aren't quite so concerned with every little nuance as they are the basic overall feeling, while leaving some of the finer details to be left to the modelers discression. I probably fall more into the latter catagory most of the time. You seem to fall into the former a little more, and thats cool because thats what interests you. Thing is, recognizing where you are on that spectrum is important because it will help you to keep your sanity and not bog you down in stuff that maybe isn't fully your passion. On a small RR this isn't quite as big of a deal as a larger, more time and resource consuming project.
For my tastes, your current layout offers a fine balance of realism vs. modelers license. It does an excellent job of saying "Pennsy" to me.
I did notice something in your original post though. You listed off a lot of places to model.
Now I'm in N scale, same as you, so I think in N scale like you do. I'm currently building a double decker N scale layout in a 15x10.5 room, so pretty close to the size you mentioned. In order to keep some open country between the towns I managed to get two small towns and two decent sized ones, and that was it. Any more began to feel cramped. Now remember what I said about modelers comromising? I think that list may have to shrink a little.
You have a great eye for balance in your scenery. I know you'll find that magic place where it looks just right to the eye. Just keep in mind that sometimes a "mood" to a layout can say more about it then sweating every single detail.
Oh, and keep us posted on what you come up with. I know I'd be interested in seeing it.
Good points, Philip.
Now, one thing to keep in mind: not all of the places I mentioned are actual towns with depots. Perdix is just a stretch of track adjacent to US 11/15. The only thing notable about it is the scenery. Sherman's Creek is a bridge, part of VIEW Interlocking. Duncannon would be backdrop fodder. From the end of visible staging at Enola the first actual town with a depot would be Mifflin. After that the Lewistown Narrows is just the name for a narrow valley with again, no town. Lewistown would be the next stop with a depot. From there a peninsula branch would run to Burnham on the Milroy Secondary to serve the Standard Steel railroad wheel plant. Granville is just a bridge at the end of LEWIS Interlocking. If I had room I might consider adding Huntingdon, but that would be the first location to drop (I wouldn't relish scratchbuilding that depot!). Altoona would be the other end of a run-through staging yard.
All told, only two towns with depots (3 if I included Huntingdon, 4 if I felt like I wanted to add one at Altoona, but chances are it will just be staging with mimimal scenery). There would be a few interlockings (VIEW, MIFFLIN, LEWIS, and maybe HUNT). However, on the Middle Division places with absolutely nothing beyond the four tracks still were given station names on the PRR. Many of these places had block stations way, way back in the early days, but by the 1950s had no evidence of any civilization.
Sounds like you've got a better handle on it then I thought. You know the territory better then I.
Please disregard my earlier post as the misguided ramblings that they are.
Not at all...
After all, if I didn't want feedback, I wouldn't have rambled about this myself!
You are quite right, though, in that the temptation is there to cram in way more than necessary. In fact, in order to avoid that, I thought about building a whole layout based only on the Lewistown area, just so that I didn't cram too much in.
Turns out somebody beat me to it (Chris Comport):
Another option is to ditch Mifflin since it has only a limited amount of switching and replace it with Huntingdon or Mt Union. Mt Union would be cool because of the EBT connection. However, 1956 was the EBT's last year, and business wasn't exactly booming. Also, it would be hard to then do PC/Conrail session with a fully operational EBT connection. Still, Mt Union also had two brickyards the PRR could serve. It could be done!
Come to think of it, I like this idea! No to Mifflin, yes to Mt Union!
i'm curious , how do you generate enough traffic to make a 4 track mainline realistically busy ? massive amounts of staging ?
edit: geez , almost forgot to say how great the photos look . i didn't notice till after i'd read several replies that you're modelling in N . i think the only thing that gives away the scale is the size of the signal heads , they look a bit large . can't wait to see the article !
Attaboy wrote:Alright, I get to be backdrop fodder on Dave's layout. Yeah, I live in Duncannon, at least that's my mailing address. And I beg to differ on two points, there are indeed Pennsy stations in Duncannon and Newport. The one in Duncannon is a typical wood frame two story Pennsy standard station. Still being use by a cable TV office and I think an insurance office. The one in Newport is a neat little brick structure sitting unused and in pretty bad shape. Looks like it might be restorable though if someone was so inclined. I'm off work for a funeral tomorrow, I'll try to get some pics for you when I get home, Dave.
Ah, you misunderstand me. I'm aware that Newport and Duncannon have depots. In fact, here's a shot of Duncannon:
The first town with a depot I planned to model would have been Mifflin, because I can kitbash a fair representation using the new Walthers AT&SF depot:
Of course, it was my poor wording that led to your misunderstanding. Sorry!
ereimer wrote: i'm curious , how do you generate enough traffic to make a 4 track mainline realistically busy ? massive amounts of staging ?
I have no idea. Lots and lots of trains. Lots and lots of staging. Lots and lots of money.
The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking I would ditch Mifflin. Besides an easy-to-kitbash station, it didn't have much more than a few spurs and an interlocking tower.
However, Mount Union offers 2 brick yards, a coal prep plant, a giant stone arch bridge, and best of all, an interchange with the narrow gauge East Broad Top.
The EBT quit regular operations in March 1956, meaning I'd either have to stretch history to make it last unitl summer 1956, or backdate my whole layout to summer 1955. That would be the more likely answer. However, I have a lot of equipment in the post-1954 shadow keystone scheme, some weathered, more than would have been likely in 1955. Oh well.
Now, the best part? EBT stuff in Nn3. Impossible without insane scratchbuilding, right? Wrong! Republic Locmotive Works to the rescue!!!
http://www.republiclocomotiveworks.com/shop.php
They have the EBT narrow-gauge 2-8-2, cabooses, and the ubiquitous 3-bay hoppers in Nn3:
Of course, there were standard gauge 0-6-0s at Mount Union to do the switching on the dual gauge track. The Walthers New River Mine could be kitbashed to represent the coal prep plant and the EBT Mount Union timber transfer crane is offered in plastic by Heljan.
I think this would be a great LDE. My father, brother, and I used to ride the EBT during the Winter Spectaculars in the 1970s.
Hi Dave, I just caught your post and discussion of your Pennsy N layout. Very nice, great scenery! You may be interested to know that the HO version I built for a client (re: the plan you posted) has been dismantled, reconfigured and intalled at the Pennsy RR museum in Strasburg.
The client passed away and his family donated to the museum where he was a benefactor. It's basically a huge 4 track loop and features the Mifflin,Denholm, Lewistown and Granville modules.
The Denholm coal wharf was still up in 1956, you gotta find a place for it.
Regards
Chris Comport
Chris,
That's a shame about your client, but I'll have to check it out next month when I go to Strasburg! Every year we go up to my uncle's farm in Lancaster for a family reunion; it always involves a trip to Strasburg.
I was very impressed with the quality of your work and the way you captured the Pennsy! I saved that layout in my favorites the first time I happened across it. It's been a great source of inspiration on layout design.
As has been mentioned, keeping a four track main busy could be a difficult proposition without some serious staging. Towns that do not generate a decent amount of traffic may have to be sacrificed in order to keep the volume up. Depending on the amount of room available, it might be good to keep maybe one small town so that you keep that predominately run-through feeling that small towns have, but only if there's room to comfortably fit it.
As to the connection to the EBT........I say GO FOR IT! I seriously looked at going Nn3 when I moved to this house I'm in now as I'd be starting over on the layout itself. I got some decent info compiled and I almost made that leap. Republic Locomotive Works is a great source. Let me pass along a couple of others to help "nudge" you in the right direction.
Check these folks out! I've bought a few things from them before and they seem to be quite reputable. (Don't miss the dual gauge track, with turnouts, that they sell!) Their stuff is a bit pricy, but it's the good stuff! http://www.aspenmodel.com/
Let's not forget Micro-Trains: http://www.micro-trains.com/00_nn3%20scale.htm . Theve had stuff made for the EBT ( http://cgi.ebay.com/Nn3-Micro-Trains-80000070-EBT-30-Box-Car-NIB_W0QQitemZ280118248749QQihZ018QQcategoryZ19126QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ). Also, they had a steam loco a few years ago that might work, though if I remember, it was kind of pricey.
The Athearn / MDC line could help with rolling stock. You'd have to cut it down a bit, but it's not too hard. Also, the 2-8-0 and the 2-6-0 might be able to be narrowed down to Nn3. That would give you some more power to work with. The MDC loco's can be had for a song here: http://www.trainworld.com/2007_n_scale.htm
The Bachmann Old Timers line could also help with rolling stock. Same thing applies, you'll have to hack it a bit.
These guys might be helpful as well:
http://www.urbaneagle.com/slim/index.html
http://www.nn3.org/
I know... I keep wrestling with the staging/traffic issue.
The Middle Division has a special place in my heart, from childhood memories of the EBT to my college days at Penn State and the drive up US 322 from Harrisburg. But the Middle Division has some drawbacks as a modeling subject:
1. Not much online industry (save for Lewistown, Mount Union, and Huntingdon). Most traffic was through.
2. Insane traffic levels (50+ named passenger trains alone?).
3. Mostly 4 tracks wide. Interlocking plants require 12 turnouts each. That's a lot of track.
So where does that put me? I'm thinking back to the Northern Division from Harrisburg north toward Northumberland. But lots of guys do that already in HO and N. Probably for the same reason Pennsy's main is so intimidating.
Well then... How about the Bald Eagle Branch? I've ridden on it via excrusion train (Bellefonte Historical). Good traffic levels, but no passenger trains.
Here's a possibility. How about the PRR's Northern Central line south of Harrisburg? Harrisburg to Baltimore via New Freedom, PA. It had freight and passenger, was at most 2 tracks (much single track), and I'm familiar with the area. Plus, it's not what everyone else is doing.
Decent traffic, decent online switching, and not too big!
Hmm... worth a thought.
I don't know about the area you are modeling, but I do know the drive to model true to the prototype and I think that as long as you carry the coal mine, it will eat at you.
However, while your area may not have had a coal mine, they would have had coal distribution centers. That would allow you to be prototypical and still keep some coal operations.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I would consider modeling York to say, Parkton, MD with Harrisburg and Baltimore as staging... and looky what I found at Keystone Crossings!:
It's an intrlocking diagram from 1954 between those towns.
That looks doable.
I would have to include New Freedom. I rode the Stewartstown Railroad there as a kid, and the station is available as a kit.
Too many ideas!!! ARRRRRGH!
Dave Vollmer wrote: I would consider modeling York to say, Parkton, MD with Harrisburg and Baltimore as staging... and looky what I found at Keystone Crossings!:It's an intrlocking diagram from 1954 between those towns.That looks doable.I would have to include New Freedom. I rode the Stewartstown Railroad there as a kid, and the station is available as a kit.Too many ideas!!! ARRRRRGH!
What about selling what you got and building what you really want?
Because, Chip... My current layout is less than a year old, and I built it to stay with me while I'm still in the Air Force, which should be for many years to come.
I like my current layout a lot, but my dreams are bigger than 3' x 6'8". Unfortunately, 3'x6'8" is all the space I can reasonably expect to have at future assignments given typical base housing.
The reason I'm musing aloud about my future layout (years into the future, that is) is because I don't want to be bogged down after retirement (from the USAF; I plan to have a second career) by trying to decide what I want to do. I want to start laying track ASAP. To do so, I'll need a plan for at least what I want to model along with most of the structures and rolling stock.
If I can settle on a stretch of the Pennsy, I can start scratchbuilding/kitbashing towers, stations, industries, etc. now while I'm still in the service. Moreover, if a certain section of the PRR I choose used (or didn't use) certain locomotives, cars, etc., I can focus my future purchases.
Harrisburg to Baltimore would be good.
So would Harrisburg to Winchester.
Heck, you could model Harrisburg and the starts of all of the branches and then have the branches be staging! You've got three divisions in Harrisburg and another one just south of it.
You could also do Altoona to Cumberland, though thats been done.
Pittsburg to Buffalo via Oil City might be good.
You could also do something like what I'm doing. I'm modeling a shortline off of a busy main. You could model a branch off of the main and that way you use the all of your stuff, but the focus of the layout is the branch. The main can be modeled, though only a small portion. That way, you aren't overwhelmed by the main (and it's high volume traffic) and you can really concentrate on the branch. Traffic is a bit slower, but the connections with the main will keep you on time. A good candidate for this might be Tyrone to Grampain, with the split at Vail taken to Lock Haven. I think if it were me, I'd probably look at doing that.
Dave Vollmer wrote: The reason I'm musing aloud about my future layout (years into the future, that is) is because I don't want to be bogged down after retirement (from the USAF; I plan to have a second career) by trying to decide what I want to do. I want to start laying track ASAP. To do so, I'll need a plan for at least what I want to model along with most of the structures and rolling stock.
I understand that. I did the same thing with my house I'm in now. I knew for almost a year what the exact dimentions of the layout room would be, even though the house wasn't even built yet. I started planning back then so that when I moved, I was ready. While you don't have quite the same luxury (knowing the exact dimentions and all), it's good to have some real ideas already in place from which to work from. It'll give you a real jump start.
I gotta tell you, Philip, that I'm really pumped on this Northern Central idea. Looking at that interlocking diagram, a modest sized basement could fit every track! How often do we get the chance to be that exact?
That second main was ripped out in the early 50s, so by my era it was mostly single track with passing sidings. I thought at first that would be too limiting, but honesly, it gives me a good reason to install a real signalling system and to operate the layout instead of just setting two trains up to drill counter-rotating circles around the layout.
For added realism, I can leave a stretch of ballasted right-of-way along the east side of the track to show the recent track reduction, plus extra-wide bridges.
Plus, I get to model two interchanges; the M&PA at York and the Stewartstown at New Freedom!
Perhaps I'll keep my current layout for shows and build the future one seperately.