Hand laying turnouts? Info please

[CSXFan]

Hi all,

I'm fed up with commercial turnouts so I'm opting to hand lay my own. I've been looking around at the Fast Tracks site but when I add everything together the total comes to about $550 for kits and supplies. That's a lot of money for just 30 turnouts.

Anyway, I'm wondering how hard it would be to do it the old fashioned way. Has anyone every built a turnout with just a few pieces of rail, a few gauges, and some ties? If so, can you please share your experience? I'd like to know the level of difficulty and also what tools and supplies I would need to get started. I'm not looking to build any double slips or crossovers, just standard turnouts. So what do you think? Is it a good money saving idea or should I go a different route? Thanks in advance. 

[selector]

Chuck, we need a clinic....hello?   Chuck?

[loathar]

http://www.CVMW.com/

Don't know if you ever checked this company out.

[cheese4432]

Hey that's a pretty good price. Lets' see it includes:

• ties
• guage
• instructions
• good price!

good deal to me.

Oh and by the way they are about

$12 and you supply the rail.

[loathar]

Each switch kit comes with a super detail kit and working switch stand too. They also sell some nice code 81 rail. (yes, 81). I've built a couple of diaramas with their stuff.

[tomikawaTT]

Chuck, we need a clinic....hello?   Chuck?

You called?

The definitely not patented, jig free technique for building turnouts (or any other specialwork, up to and including multi-double slip switch puzzle palaces.)  Dimensions, where given, are for HO and/or HOj.

1. Establish the routes through the site by laying flex track, checking for minimum radius, S curve problems etc.  Mark where the edges of the flex track ties are, for each route.  Where the tie-edge lines overlay, you have the site of a turnout (crossing, gantlet?)
2. Determine the location of the points, and which way you want the headblock ties to extend outside the normal tie line.
3. Find the line where the distance between outer tie lines is the length of the tie plus 16.5mm.  This is the approximate location of the frog point.
4. Lay out switch ties of appropriate length.  Ends must reach or overlap the outer tie lines.
5. Position and spike down one stock rail.
6. Shape the frog point rails (I personally use separate rails, but some modelers form both frog point rails end to end, then bend the point together.) and spike the one parallel to the stock rail.  Use three point and NMRA flat track gauges!  The frog point goes on the line previously determined.
7. Shape the closure rail that parallels the stock rail and spike it into place.
8. My method of pivoting points calls for a flathead wire nail placed in a drilled hole for a pivot, and PC board throw bar (made from 'experiment board' with pre-drilled holes and non-continuous circuit lines).  The shaped point rail is soldered to the pivot nail, and the throw bar connections are formed from bent brass wire passed through holes in the PC board and soldered to the insides of the points (low down to clear flanges.)  I do not notch stock rails.  Instead, I shape my points like the prototype's, undercut to ride up on the stock rail base when closed.
9. For the other side of the switch, gauge the stock rail from the frog point and the rails of the adjacent "ordinary" track.  Position it temporarily with a few track nails between ties until the throw bar and points are installed.  Then gauge and spike down the frog rail and closure rail parallel to the second stock rail.
10. Solder the frog; point rails and closure rail wings.  Placing short lengths of tinned #22 wire in the flangeways adds to the strength of the joint (one can be the frog feeder.)  I do NOT flood the flangeways with solder.  I DO clean them and check track gauge to both stock rails IMMEDIATELY - and rework as/if necessary.  Especially at this point, "Good enough," isn't. 
11. Permanently install the points, along with the actuator of choice.
12. Add guard rails where needed.  I find the guard rail flangeways to be ideal locations for feeder wire connections.

In addition to the three point and NMRA track gauges, I usually run my "designated derailment checker" train (stiff trucks, long-wheelbase 4 wheel cars with pizza cutter flanges, underweight cars...) through each newly-available route (under 0-5-0 power) as soon as the rails are in position.  The same train, with D50380 on the point, is run through as soon as the rails are powered.  Any issues discovered are dealt with IMMEDIATELY.  The result?  Absolutely reliable, smooth-flowing specialwork guaranteed to give years of trouble-free service.

Two little tricks to improve reliability:

1. Take the sharp corner off the gauge side of the railhead on both sides EVERY joint, including the ones between the ends of the closure rails and the butt ends of the points.
2. Put a little kink in the stock rails just ahead of the sharp ends of the points.

Happy turnout laying.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - on flex with hand-laid specialwork)

[Teditor]

You might like to have a look at the Darling Downs Model Railway Club website - ddmrc.com - there is the start of a turnout building clinic on site, if you get on the Contact Us section and encourage the writer/constructor, he will hopefully get a move on.

His name is Russell, and the turnouts and crossings he has built, is building on the clubs N scale layout are smooth as, econimical and not really all that hard to do, he has some unique ideas that I feel are a bit different to the normal way of construction and utilises hand made jigs and patience.

Spaghetti Junction is a masterpiece.

Teditor 

[wedudler]

Yes, at the Fast Track site you can learn a lot.

But for me it's too expensive. So I've another way.

http://www.westportterminal.de/howtoscrturnouts.html

At my sites about my http://www.westportterminal.de/westport.html you see my latest version.

And, only scratch building you can get this:

 You can see at my videos, the trains run perfect.

Wolfgang 

[donhalshanks]

I used the article "Building a Turnout from Scratch" written by Tony Koester and printed in the Model Railroader book "Trackwork and Lineside Detail".  This method worked great for me, with the only exception I did not ballast until the very end when I did the rest of my track as well.

The method is similar to the one detailed in this thread, but the nice thing is there are pictures for each step in the process.  The first turnout goes a little slow, but after a couple it moves much quicker.  I think the end results look great, and they work just fine.  Hint:  be very tight with the gage on both sides of the frog. 

Have fun.  Let us know how it goes.

Hal 

 

[CSXFan]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Loathar, I should have mentioned that I'm working in N scale. I don't see anything on that site for N, am I missing something?

Teditor, I couldn't find anything about building turnouts on that web page, did I overlook it?

Chuck, thank you very much for the how to. I've printed it off and I will refer to it often. 

Wedudler, very nice site you have there, I'll be referring to that also.

It looks like it's fairly easy to hand lay turnouts but there are only a couple things that concern me and they are filing the points and frogs. I understand that they are the most important parts of any turnout so they have to be perfect. I don't think I have the skills or tools to do a good filing job so I am thinking about getting the Fast Tracks PointForm filing jig.

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/item.php?id=3739&link_str=129::1258::1259::1265&partno=PF-6-S

This jig will allow me to get perfect results every time very quickly (that's what Fast Tracks is telling me) and for only 40 bucks I think it's worth it. I'll need to get both a #6 and a #4.5 so it'll be $80 in all. 

Now for ties. I'm again thinking of ordering from Fast Tracks. I’ll get the PC board ties just to carry electric current and to make the turnouts very sturdy. This will cost about $32.40. Next I will need the wood ties also available from Fast Tracks. That will cost another $40.

I will also need fine solder ($6.40) and Pliobond adhesive ($6.00) 

All for a grand total of… $164.80 (works out to about $5.50 per turnout)

So what do you think? Still worth it? Is there anything else I need? Sorry for the long post, I was thinking out loud and sort of babbled on. Thanks for sticking with me, I’ve been away from the layout for a month because of track laying problems and I think I’m finally starting to move forward again.

[CSXFan]

I assume no response means I'm good to go?

[fwright]

It looks like it's fairly easy to hand lay turnouts but there are only a couple things that concern me and they are filing the points and frogs. I understand that they are the most important parts of any turnout so they have to be perfect. I don't think I have the skills or tools to do a good filing job so I am thinking about getting the Fast Tracks PointForm filing jig.

The filing is not as difficult as one might think (at least in HO it wasn't).  If you use Chuck's method (or any other) to create a template for the rails directly on the roadbed, you file the frog point according to the template.  This allows you to use any custom frog angle your heart desires, including curved frogs.  The Fast Tracks jigs are going to limit your selection of frog angles.  Same with the points.

My recommended article on laying turnouts is by Jack Work in the April 1963 Model Railroader.  Kalmbach will sell you a copy of the article for a few dollars.

Now for ties. I'm again thinking of ordering from Fast Tracks. I’ll get the PC board ties just to carry electric current and to make the turnouts very sturdy. This will cost about $32.40. Next I will need the wood ties also available from Fast Tracks. That will cost another $40.

I will also need fine solder ($6.40) and Pliobond adhesive ($6.00)

I don't understand the need for the Pliobond if you are going to use PC board ties and solder.  Normal use of PC Board ties is to use them every 5 ties or so, and solder the rail to them.  The rail is not fastened to the wood ties.

Proto87 stores (http://www.proto87stores.com/p87stores/index.htm) has HO scale size spikes that are used by some N track layers.  Andy also has other supplies for fine N track laying. 

All for a grand total of… $164.80 (works out to about $5.50 per turnout)

So what do you think? Still worth it? Is there anything else I need? Sorry for the long post, I was thinking out loud and sort of babbled on. Thanks for sticking with me, I’ve been away from the layout for a month because of track laying problems and I think I’m finally starting to move forward again.

I find hand-laying track to be quite relaxing and soothing.  I take my time and make sure everything is right before I call it done.  And there is a great sense of accomplishment when you watch your prize rolling stock roll through your turnouts that you built with nary a derailment or even a bump.  And this is coming from somebody who gets the shakes just picking up an airbrush to paint a car kit.

You might want to check out the handlaid track group on Yahoo (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/handlaidtrack/).  Lots of discussions (a few heated) on a wide variety of techniques for handlaid track.

yours in handlaid track

Fred W

[selector]

...I don't understand the need for the Pliobond if you are going to use PC board ties and solder.  Normal use of PC Board ties is to use them every 5 ties or so, and solder the rail to them.  The rail is not fastened to the wood ties.

 

 

Fred W

Fred, in the Fast Tracks system, the PCB ties number maybe 8-10 per turnout.  Thereafter, with the turnout held together by those few ties, you are provided dye-cut wooden tie templates that you are to glue to the nether side of the turnout using, as they suggest, Pliobond.  When it is set, you take an X-acto and cut through the minute tabs between the outer planking and the dye/laser-cut ties.  Remove the outer plank and you are left with a neat turnout.

[Don Gibson]

People 'hand lay' turnouts to get greater accuracy and minimize derailments.

"(My)total comes to about $550 for kits and supplies. That's a lot of money for just 30 turnouts".

Yes, and about what you pay ($18 per) for a 'Prefab, or a quality Kit. 

The non common denomiator is TIME - YOURS or THEIRS?

Turnouts are the cause of most derailments. (They seldom occur on a contiuous loop). Pre fab turnouts are difficult to mass produce - totally in gage. The best are manufactured by Shinohara and Micro-Engineering.

Good Switch Kits are manufactured by Trout Creek Engineering and Central Valley.  'Fast Tracks' provides repeatable in-gage forms for build-it-yourself-ers. Pro-87 is dedicated to provide wheels with 'Scale sized' flanges. Where do wish the train to stop and let you off?

If you are NOT going for greater accuracy, why bother?

http://www.troutcreekeng.com/bkho.html

http://www.cvmw.com/

http://www.proto87stores.com/p87stores/index.htm

 

 

 

[Teditor]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Loathar, I should have mentioned that I'm working in N scale. I don't see anything on that site for N, am I missing something?

Teditor, I couldn't find anything about building turnouts on that web page, did I overlook it?

Chuck, thank you very much for the how to. I've printed it off and I will refer to it often. 

Wedudler, very nice site you have there, I'll be referring to that also.

It looks like it's fairly easy to hand lay turnouts but there are only a couple things that concern me and they are filing the points and frogs. I understand that they are the most important parts of any turnout so they have to be perfect. I don't think I have the skills or tools to do a good filing job so I am thinking about getting the Fast Tracks PointForm filing jig.

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/item.php?id=3739&link_str=129::1258::1259::1265&partno=PF-6-S

This jig will allow me to get perfect results every time very quickly (that's what Fast Tracks is telling me) and for only 40 bucks I think it's worth it. I'll need to get both a #6 and a #4.5 so it'll be $80 in all. 

Now for ties. I'm again thinking of ordering from Fast Tracks. I’ll get the PC board ties just to carry electric current and to make the turnouts very sturdy. This will cost about $32.40. Next I will need the wood ties also available from Fast Tracks. That will cost another $40.

I will also need fine solder ($6.40) and Pliobond adhesive ($6.00) 

All for a grand total of… $164.80 (works out to about $5.50 per turnout)

So what do you think? Still worth it? Is there anything else I need? Sorry for the long post, I was thinking out loud and sort of babbled on. Thanks for sticking with me, I’ve been away from the layout for a month because of track laying problems and I think I’m finally starting to move forward again.

With reference Teditor part of quote: 

See if this helps, I should have explained a little better

ddmrc.com

This will put you on the home page

Left column click Library

This will bring up 10 Articles, click on that

In the list, about half way down you will find the Scratchbuilding Turnouts story - part 1

Give Russell a shake up by sending a message and he will get more about it on site.

By the way - all Russell's work is in N scale. 

Hope this helps

 

[dinwitty]

 

Simple tools, Rail, Ties, Vise, Hand File, NMRA gauge, 2 needlenose pliers, Rail Nippers or a good Wire cutter.

and the knowledge what do do...you can't buy this stuff... 

[selector]

Chuck, thanks very much for responding.  I really appreciate the time you took. 

[dinwitty]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Loathar, I should have mentioned that I'm working in N scale. I don't see anything on that site for N, am I missing something?

Teditor, I couldn't find anything about building turnouts on that web page, did I overlook it?

Chuck, thank you very much for the how to. I've printed it off and I will refer to it often. 

Wedudler, very nice site you have there, I'll be referring to that also.

It looks like it's fairly easy to hand lay turnouts but there are only a couple things that concern me and they are filing the points and frogs. I understand that they are the most important parts of any turnout so they have to be perfect. I don't think I have the skills or tools to do a good filing job so I am thinking about getting the Fast Tracks PointForm filing jig.

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/item.php?id=3739&link_str=129::1258::1259::1265&partno=PF-6-S

This jig will allow me to get perfect results every time very quickly (that's what Fast Tracks is telling me) and for only 40 bucks I think it's worth it. I'll need to get both a #6 and a #4.5 so it'll be $80 in all. 

Now for ties. I'm again thinking of ordering from Fast Tracks. I’ll get the PC board ties just to carry electric current and to make the turnouts very sturdy. This will cost about $32.40. Next I will need the wood ties also available from Fast Tracks. That will cost another $40.

I will also need fine solder ($6.40) and Pliobond adhesive ($6.00) 

All for a grand total of… $164.80 (works out to about $5.50 per turnout)

So what do you think? Still worth it? Is there anything else I need? Sorry for the long post, I was thinking out loud and sort of babbled on. Thanks for sticking with me, I’ve been away from the layout for a month because of track laying problems and I think I’m finally starting to move forward again.

 

I wouldnt call some of my frogs and points perfect, but the work, if you gauge correctly it all works.

I usually form the point with one rail than befuddle fiddling with 2 rails making the point, it simulates the prototypes cast solid frog. That one rail finds the exact frog point, I spike that frog rail down and slide it back and forth getting the point. I have the 2 outer rails laid out already first.

 Very basically...

 Evaluate your "Straight" and curve, lay down ties.

Spike down the outer rails, one main, one curved for the switch.

Form the "straight" frog, and lay and spike for the straight track and gauge to find the frog point.

 Form the curved point and lay in.

2 rails, totally straight, form the inner and outer diversion point rails.

Spike down the straight, use the guard rail gauge to find the angle bend point, then bend the point rail to form the guard  Similar for the curved point.

You're base turnout is already done 

When you get your hands on the rails and try out things you will learn and figger ways to do things that work for you.

 

 

[dinwitty]

You might like to have a look at the Darling Downs Model Railway Club website - ddmrc.com - there is the start of a turnout building clinic on site, if you get on the Contact Us section and encourage the writer/constructor, he will hopefully get a move on.

His name is Russell, and the turnouts and crossings he has built, is building on the clubs N scale layout are smooth as, econimical and not really all that hard to do, he has some unique ideas that I feel are a bit different to the normal way of construction and utilises hand made jigs and patience.

Spaghetti Junction is a masterpiece.

Teditor 

The club I was in handlaid all the turnouts, that was years ago, they knew the problems and did them right. All rail frogs and points that dont change polarity.

Entire layout used an industrial  snap/hold selenoid for the diverging route, routes had a normalized direction, kill the power to the layout and all the machines snapped back to normal position after a run session.

 Good fault free running (cross fingers)...it WAS reliable.