C W you need to check out Steve Goen's T&NO book. He has a photo of a T&NO bay window caboose at Englewood Yard dated 1951 in that book. These 45 bay window cabooses of the C30-4 and C30-5 classes were built for T&NO in 1947 and 1949. My question to you would be why would they be over in California working for Espee when they were owned by T&NO?
You might want to post this question over on the T&NO Yahoo Group.
Ed
SSW9389 wrote: The first 50 Espee bay window cabooses were built by AC&F in 1947. They were class C30-4 and built for both Espee and T&NO.#1235-1269 Espee #500-514 T&NOAnother 130 bay window cabooses were built for Espee and T&NO in the Los Angeles General Shops in 1949 and 1951. These cars were of the C30-5 and C30-6 classes. No additional bay window cars were purchased by Espee until 1961.#1270-1319 Espee C30-5#515-544 T&NO C30-5#1320-1369 Espee C30-6Data from the caboose article in the 1981 Espee Review by Joe Strapac. cwclark wrote: I believe the first bay window cabooses were starting to show up on SP trains starting around 1957.
The first 50 Espee bay window cabooses were built by AC&F in 1947. They were class C30-4 and built for both Espee and T&NO.
#1235-1269 Espee
#500-514 T&NO
Another 130 bay window cabooses were built for Espee and T&NO in the Los Angeles General Shops in 1949 and 1951. These cars were of the C30-5 and C30-6 classes. No additional bay window cars were purchased by Espee until 1961.
#1270-1319 Espee C30-5
#515-544 T&NO C30-5
#1320-1369 Espee C30-6
Data from the caboose article in the 1981 Espee Review by Joe Strapac.
cwclark wrote: I believe the first bay window cabooses were starting to show up on SP trains starting around 1957.
I believe the first bay window cabooses were starting to show up on SP trains starting around 1957.
Mark and I model SP in Texas and that was the year the cabooses started showing up on the Sunset Route San Antonio and Houston divisions. The cabooses were in California earlier than 1957 but at the time the SP didn't come thru this area. It was the T&NO at that time.
Okay. I did a little research on my own last night, and found that SP had a number of all steel bay window cabooses in service beginning in 1949. They were box car brown with an all orange bay window and orange ends and white Roman lettering. SP also had all steel cupola models that were box car brown with Southern Pacific in Roman lettering across the top with a white line above it and a road number below the SP with a white line under it as well. Now I know what I was wanting to know...
Thanks guys.
Tracklayer
The California Public Utilities Commission banned Espee's wooden cabooses in 1963. They lasted quite a while in local service. The C30-2 and C30-3 classes were steel framed and wood sheathed. I believe Walthers makes a C30-1 in HO scale.
I've got a Terry Kirkland photo of a Texas & Southeastern Baldwin diesel.
leighant wrote: Don't know if this was the MOST common. The MicroTrainsLines N scale wood-side caboose with slant-side cupola is a model of a Southern Pacific caboose that ran into the 1950s. They sold an old one to the Texas & SouthEastern and it ran there in the late 60s. My caboose for a East Texas shortline timber hauling railroad is supposed to be one bought 2nd hand from SP. Of course, I don't think a serious railroad like Southern Pacific allowed the conductor to bring his dog along in the caboose as an assistant.
Don't know if this was the MOST common. The MicroTrainsLines N scale wood-side caboose with slant-side cupola is a model of a Southern Pacific caboose that ran into the 1950s. They sold an old one to the Texas & SouthEastern and it ran there in the late 60s. My caboose for a East Texas shortline timber hauling railroad is supposed to be one bought 2nd hand from SP.
Of course, I don't think a serious railroad like Southern Pacific allowed the conductor to bring his dog along in the caboose as an assistant.
Oh, I don't know about that. You might be surprised at some of the pets and things conductors took along on the road with them to keep them company. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've heard rumors of gold fish, birds in cages, cats and so forth being taken along - especially back in the old days when a conductor might spend a week in a caboose.
As for the topic. I find it hard to believe that by the mid and late 1950s that SP was still using old wood type cabooses with the modern diesel locos like the F-3s and F-7s, but if they were then so be it. One can't argue with fact can they...
Thanks everyone. I very much appreciate your input on this.
Tracklayer wrote: twhite wrote: Tracklayer wrote: twhite wrote: If I remember correctly--and I'm going back YEARS here, folks--the SP seemed to assign bay window cabooses to their Valley and Coast lines here in California, while keeping their cupola cabooses for the Donner Pass lines. I did a lot of train watching in the 1950's in the Sierra Nevada's, and the cupola caboose seemed to hang around on the end of freights much longer than anywhere else, whereas train-watching in Sacramento or Stockton on the Valley line would see a predominance of bay-windows. I don't know if there was any particular reason for this, or just a quirk of the railroad itself. The demarcation line seemed to be Roseville, CA, where most trains arriving from the West were broken up and re-made into trains for either Sparks, or north on the East Valley line to Redding. As I said, I'm going back fifty years or more, and my memory could be clouded by what I THOUGHT I saw, LOL!Tom Hi Tom. You wouldn't happen to remember what the colors of the cabooses were at that time would you ?.TracklayerTracklayer: They were what I understand is referred to as "Mineral Red", a kind of box-car red. I think in the late 'fifties, early 'sixties, SP began using a yellow-orange 'safety' color on the caboose body ends of their cupolas and the body ends and 'bay' sides of their bay-windows. Kind of like their "Daylight" color, but a little lighter, if I remember. It was really a striking color combination. But originally, their cupola cabooses were a solid Mineral Red. Tom Mineral red. Got it. Thanks Tom. So when did the silver ones with the big red S and P on the front of Southern Pacific come out ?...Tracklayer
twhite wrote: Tracklayer wrote: twhite wrote: If I remember correctly--and I'm going back YEARS here, folks--the SP seemed to assign bay window cabooses to their Valley and Coast lines here in California, while keeping their cupola cabooses for the Donner Pass lines. I did a lot of train watching in the 1950's in the Sierra Nevada's, and the cupola caboose seemed to hang around on the end of freights much longer than anywhere else, whereas train-watching in Sacramento or Stockton on the Valley line would see a predominance of bay-windows. I don't know if there was any particular reason for this, or just a quirk of the railroad itself. The demarcation line seemed to be Roseville, CA, where most trains arriving from the West were broken up and re-made into trains for either Sparks, or north on the East Valley line to Redding. As I said, I'm going back fifty years or more, and my memory could be clouded by what I THOUGHT I saw, LOL!Tom Hi Tom. You wouldn't happen to remember what the colors of the cabooses were at that time would you ?.TracklayerTracklayer: They were what I understand is referred to as "Mineral Red", a kind of box-car red. I think in the late 'fifties, early 'sixties, SP began using a yellow-orange 'safety' color on the caboose body ends of their cupolas and the body ends and 'bay' sides of their bay-windows. Kind of like their "Daylight" color, but a little lighter, if I remember. It was really a striking color combination. But originally, their cupola cabooses were a solid Mineral Red. Tom
Tracklayer wrote: twhite wrote: If I remember correctly--and I'm going back YEARS here, folks--the SP seemed to assign bay window cabooses to their Valley and Coast lines here in California, while keeping their cupola cabooses for the Donner Pass lines. I did a lot of train watching in the 1950's in the Sierra Nevada's, and the cupola caboose seemed to hang around on the end of freights much longer than anywhere else, whereas train-watching in Sacramento or Stockton on the Valley line would see a predominance of bay-windows. I don't know if there was any particular reason for this, or just a quirk of the railroad itself. The demarcation line seemed to be Roseville, CA, where most trains arriving from the West were broken up and re-made into trains for either Sparks, or north on the East Valley line to Redding. As I said, I'm going back fifty years or more, and my memory could be clouded by what I THOUGHT I saw, LOL!Tom Hi Tom. You wouldn't happen to remember what the colors of the cabooses were at that time would you ?.Tracklayer
twhite wrote: If I remember correctly--and I'm going back YEARS here, folks--the SP seemed to assign bay window cabooses to their Valley and Coast lines here in California, while keeping their cupola cabooses for the Donner Pass lines. I did a lot of train watching in the 1950's in the Sierra Nevada's, and the cupola caboose seemed to hang around on the end of freights much longer than anywhere else, whereas train-watching in Sacramento or Stockton on the Valley line would see a predominance of bay-windows. I don't know if there was any particular reason for this, or just a quirk of the railroad itself. The demarcation line seemed to be Roseville, CA, where most trains arriving from the West were broken up and re-made into trains for either Sparks, or north on the East Valley line to Redding. As I said, I'm going back fifty years or more, and my memory could be clouded by what I THOUGHT I saw, LOL!Tom
If I remember correctly--and I'm going back YEARS here, folks--the SP seemed to assign bay window cabooses to their Valley and Coast lines here in California, while keeping their cupola cabooses for the Donner Pass lines. I did a lot of train watching in the 1950's in the Sierra Nevada's, and the cupola caboose seemed to hang around on the end of freights much longer than anywhere else, whereas train-watching in Sacramento or Stockton on the Valley line would see a predominance of bay-windows. I don't know if there was any particular reason for this, or just a quirk of the railroad itself. The demarcation line seemed to be Roseville, CA, where most trains arriving from the West were broken up and re-made into trains for either Sparks, or north on the East Valley line to Redding.
As I said, I'm going back fifty years or more, and my memory could be clouded by what I THOUGHT I saw, LOL!
Tom
Hi Tom. You wouldn't happen to remember what the colors of the cabooses were at that time would you ?.
Tracklayer: They were what I understand is referred to as "Mineral Red", a kind of box-car red. I think in the late 'fifties, early 'sixties, SP began using a yellow-orange 'safety' color on the caboose body ends of their cupolas and the body ends and 'bay' sides of their bay-windows. Kind of like their "Daylight" color, but a little lighter, if I remember. It was really a striking color combination. But originally, their cupola cabooses were a solid Mineral Red.
Mineral red. Got it. Thanks Tom.
So when did the silver ones with the big red S and P on the front of Southern Pacific come out ?...
Tracklayer:
Those were cabooses painted specifically for the "Overnight" piggy-back freights between SF and LA on the Coast Line starting about 1956. I know that the particular paint scheme has been very popular on models in both HO and N, but the prototype was very seldom seen off of the Coast Line. In fact, according to John Signor in his book SOUTHERN PACIFIC COAST LINE, only eight cabooses were ever painted in this scheme.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
The silver SP cabooses you talk of were only a small fleet painted for specific use on the SP's coast route "Overnight" trains in the mid-to-late 50s, as far as I can recall, and would therefore probably not be appropriate for general service elsewhere (I think Athearn used to have such an item). I can also recommend that you look at Walthers' SP wooden caboose as an accurate representation of a design that remained in use for many, many years, and well into the 60s. There are various different examples.
Brian
John: The first C40-1 steel cabooses were built in 1937. By 1942 the combined Espee and T&NO had 265 steel cabooses of the C40-1 and C40-3 classes. These were the last of the cupola cars purchased by the Espee and T&NO. All cars built after WW2 were steel bay window cars.
C40-1 #1000-1049 built in 1937
C40-3 #1050-1234 built 1940-1942
C40-3 #400-429 built 1942 for T&NO
Caboose data from Espee Review 1981 by Joe Strapac.
johncolley wrote:As near as I can recall those that came through the war were all offset cupola wood sheathed, and all the new ones built after the war were steel. The woodies were still being maintained, at least at Oakland, and any damaged wood was replaced as needed. 'hope this helps. John Colley Port Townsend, WA jc5729
cwclark wrote: Mark, I paint my SP cabooses with ruddy red or iron oxide primer from walmart which is an almost exact match to the boxcar brown or tuscan red color. The ends of the caboose's were painted daylight orange. Don't forget the 2 yellow stripes along the bottom sides of the C-30 bay window cabooses if you decide to use them. SP used both cupola and bay window cabooses in the 50's. I believe the first bay window cabooses were starting to show up on SP trains starting around 1957.
Mark,
I paint my SP cabooses with ruddy red or iron oxide primer from walmart which is an almost exact match to the boxcar brown or tuscan red color. The ends of the caboose's were painted daylight orange.
Don't forget the 2 yellow stripes along the bottom sides of the C-30 bay window cabooses if you decide to use them. SP used both cupola and bay window cabooses in the 50's. I believe the first bay window cabooses were starting to show up on SP trains starting around 1957.
Ah ha!... I wondered when you were going to show up Chuck... Thanks very much for the info. What this is all about is that I'm trying to find just the right caboose to pull behind my SP black widow F-7 A,B,B units and steam locos from around that period. I've got the old wooden cupola type, a silver cupola type with the big red S and P, a steel cupola type that's box car brown with orange ends, a bay window type with an all orange bay window and the more recent bay window type with the radio antenna and all that on the roof. Some might say run any which one I might want to, but I'd rather it be the right one for the right period...
PS - How's the foot coming along ?.
Tracklayer (Mark)
Edit: Approx.- 1957 In the Texas area that is. The T&NO was bought out by the SP in 1954 but ran their cabooses years afterwards. I still remember T&NO cabooses and rolling stock on the Kerrville branch of the SP when I was a kid in the early 60's. It was around 1965 when I saw my first bay window caboose on that branch. I could care less what the SP was doing in California before then, but all the equipment on the SP got it's beginnings in California. By the time the equipment got to the Sunset Route in Texas it was pretty much throughly used by then....chuck
Yes, it did help. Thanks a lot johncolley.
Could someone out there possibly tell me what the most common type of cabooses were that were used on the Southern Pacific back in the 1950s ?.
Thanks,