Rivet, Rivet, Rivet

[Anonymous]

No I'm not imitating a frog. [;)] Just wondering what your definition of a Rivet Counter is? Reading these posts it seems like the term is use for many things.

[Anonymous]

Woah! Deja vu.

A rivet counter to me is somebody who will not be happy with somebody else's model, no matter how accurate, unless the number of rivets (plus their size and shape) are exactly correct.

Therefore by definition, a rivet counter will accept nothing but an exact scale model of a prototype, and accept no compromise.

At one exhibition I attended, an 'expert' rivet counter was picking fault with some small details on a lineside structure, when he demanded to see something running.

So I promptly ran something for him - Thomas the tank Engine.

He soon went away.

Jon

[Morpar]

That's something I am familiar with too. Many, many years ago, I was a member of a college railroad club. One of the members in particular was a rivet counter, and I didn't care much for him. He believed that everything had to be just so-so, for example he modeled Conrail and Amtrak at the time, and it was a sin to have the wrong era loco pulling the wrong era cars. I saw him berating another person because the train they wanted to run "had the wrong paint scheme on the loco for those cars." The guy was 2 years off on his time frame! At the time I only had 1 steam loco, an old Tyco 4-6-0, so when he came around I made sure to pull 86' hi-cubes, 1940's era cars, and a streamlined observation car as a "mixed" train! You could see this guy start going nuts right off! The first time he started trying to give me grief about it I told him that I just enjoyed watching the trains run and didn't care about the prototype that much, that's why it's called freelancing! He would freak with what I have now. It's good that people want to strive to make things perfect, they just need to realize that not everyone ejoys the hobby that same way. Have fun,

[IRONROOSTER]

A rivet counter is a guy who went beyond having fun with recreating a historic scene or train to becoming obsessed with it. Sadly he is no longer having any fun.
Enjoy
Paul (who not only doesn't count the rivets, but has no idea how many there should be in the first place).

[Anonymous]

So, how many rivets are in 100 miles of track?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dhuff

So, how many rivets are in 100 miles of track?

100 miles worth[:D][:D][:D]

Jon

[dknelson]

Well now there is another side to this story as there usually is.

A person who criticizes someone else's work (but cannot demonstrate that they can do better themselves) might be called a rivet counter but is more accurately just a pain in the a**.

The other side of the coin is that for years and years we had plastic freight cars that we now know, thanks to the rivet counters, were not a model of any known prototype (and thus could not even be called generic) but were purely approximations. And it took the rivet counters to point out that the number of ribs on a gondola or hopper, or the number of corrugations on a boxcar end, or the number of seams on a reefer side, and the number of vents in a GP-7 , were highly indicative of what prototype we were seeing. AS a consequence the best manufacturers are now much more interested in accuracy and I think we all benefit from it.

By the way I believe the origin of the rivet counter phrase came in the 1930s. when Lionel introduced their "scale" New York Central Hudson (still a fabulous model if you ever get to see one in pristine condition). They advertised that it was accurate down to the last rivet and sure enough someone started counting. As it happened the tender was missing some rivets and this person pointed it out to Lionel and to the world.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

I think Billy Connoly's definition of a "Wally" best describes what "rivet counter" means to me. "A wally is a nerd, is a geek, a Cedric, A Pilchard... or whatever" "soneone who's narrowed their intrests down to just one wee thing" " They'll come up to you when you're trying to take a picture with your camera and ask - is that a G-15? I think you'll find it's a G-15, it's there, see? stamped on the botton. you see there was a G-14 but it wasn't as successful, you see where you put the film in there was a wee cam there but the G-15 didn't have that it had..." SHUT UP!!!!

You see a riet counter will always go over the top wether they know what they're talking about or not. Like IRONROOSTER was saying, they become obsessed with detail and have forgotten how to have any fun. Another good description for a rivet counter would be "Anal-Retentive".

I like having someone around who can help me with the minor (yes MINOR - they don't matter so much when theyre small) details on my model but when they go on and on for ages on end about things like rivets they bore me to tears. Many's the time I've wanted to use gaffa tape on a flapping mouth.

[Anonymous]

A rivet counter is something that every club has, and they do run rampet in the Lone Wolf Arena, although to a lesser degree. You see, they're obsessed with trying to show or prove to everyone else that they're the absolute authority on everything RailRoad. They give overly abundant opinions on everything RR, and are just a real royal pain where the sun don't shine.[:(!][:(!][:(!]

[Roadtrp]

I'm just getting started in the hobby, and I was driving myself nuts trying to make sure that my first train would be "historically accurate". That seemed to be especially difficult since I wanted to model a passenger train in "N" and there just didn't seem to be much passenger rolling stock out there.

I finally found a great Internet archive of Amtrak train photos. From what I saw it seemed that they mixed eras and paint schemes all over the place. It also seemed they frequently used locomotives from a completely difrerent era from some of the passenger cars they were pulling. So I decided not to sweat it and ordered what the heck I wanted.

It may not be "historically accurate" but then who decides what is accurate and what isn't anyway? [:p]

[Anonymous]

Yes...every club has a rivet counter or two...however...the last club i belonged to was NOTHING BUT rivet counters...and it was to the point i wanted to puke...so i left.

[eastcoast]

I am in a club, and build a BEAUTIFUL Passenger Station.
After I put the station and ALL the platforms on this club
layout, I felt it was good work, APPARENTLY NOT TO THEM.
THE LAST I SAW it at the monthly meeting, it was REDONE.
"THE CLUB" voted that it was not what they wanted and had
it totally repainted and renovated against my wishes. I QUIT !!!
I have since gotten all my rolling stock and equipment out of there.
NOBODY CAN DO THAT TO ME IN MY OWN HOME, AND THAT IS
MY NEW 1 MAN PROJECT,with help from the family.
This club here bickers way too much about politics of modelling a
railroad and acts like big children, rude, and inconsiderate what it did.
I worked very hard to complete that station for them on time,
and got it thrown in my face. NEVER AGAIN.

[Anonymous]

It sounds to me like we have a good cross section of people with good and bad experiances in clubs. It is said that time heals all, we'll see. For now all should do what is right for them and what they feel comfortable with. Please do remember though, Model Railroading is supposed to be fun and when it is no longer, thats the time to leave it and seek something differant that is satisfying. I hope no one leaves the hobby but when it's time, it's time. It's not yet that time for me but politics and rivet counters are bad for this or any other hobby and I think that all would agree they have no place in our Model Railroading. It will only drive the younger people, just coming in, right back out again. I used to build wooden ship models, Clippers, primarily, and I watched , over a period of years, critical fanatics and rivet counters, destroy that hobby. Now there are only a few dedicated model builders, mostly rivet counters, that still build. There is a very slowing growing, new generation of model builders trying to put down some roots in the hobby, but I really think over a period of time, most if not all, will leave the hobby due to confrontations such as we see above. Damn Shame. [:(!]

[Anonymous]

I've had my share of meetings with Rivet counters. Most have been unpleasant but not all are nasty. My favorite hoby shop is owned by a rivet counter and is an excellent modeler. The best in my opinion. He also taught me alot and helped me to make a Dash 9 into a cabless unit. He thought it was something that did not exist but could exist if one wrecked and the company wanted to save money but keep the unit. So I don't like "rivet counters" but some are worth listening to. Modeling is like religion, it's something someone wants to share but if pushed too hard it can be made a deterent.

Thanks,
Jeremy


Go Packers!!

[cp1057]

It seems that every hobby has its share of these types. They typically infest model railroading, model aircraft and military modeling.

Listen carefully to how they speak: They talk in pronouncements like " Well everybody knows that they got rid of steam engines too soon" almost challenging someone to try and contradict them. From a safe distance they can be quite amusing. You can almost always find one hanging around a hobby store, trying to impress others with their superior knowledge.

As far as my model railroad goes, I try to make it more "typical" than "prototypical"

Charles
Hillsburgh Ontario

[cacole]

To me, a rivet counter is a royal pain in the a**. We had one in our local club once, but he got to be such a nuisance that he was ordered to remove his posterior from the premises and to never return. Members originally tried to placate him by creating a special dutiy position called "Chief Engineer" -- and was that ever a mistake. He immediately proceeded to write up voluminous tracts on exactly how everything must be done, including using tweezers to place one grain of ballast at a time onto the layout, and how to insure that each grain was placed exactly right. He claimed to be an expert at soldering, and could spend an entire evening soldering one track joint, using all kinds of special filtered waters and gadgets to clean the joint, prime the metal, measure the soldering iron's tip temperature, etc.. If we were really going to build the club's 20 x 40 foot HO-scale layout according to George, we would still be measuring the first piece of 2x4 to make sure we had the length exactly right, down to within a micron. He also was the type who had nothing good to say about any other member's tools. One night he asked to borrow a drill bit because he had "forgotten" to bring the $500 set he had stolen from the Army. I had just received a set of bits, so I handed him one. He looked at it and exclaimed, "Huh! Made in India!! Goddam cheap junk is probably going to shatter as soon as I try to chuck it in my drill. Why don't you buy good tools?" He was removed from the club shortly after that.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

To me, a rivet counter is a royal pain in the a**. We had one in our local club once, but he got to be such a nuisance that he was ordered to remove his posterior from the premises and to never return. Members originally tried to placate him by creating a special dutiy position called "Chief Engineer" -- and was that ever a mistake. He immediately proceeded to write up voluminous tracts on exactly how everything must be done, including using tweezers to place one grain of ballast at a time onto the layout, and how to insure that each grain was placed exactly right. He claimed to be an expert at soldering, and could spend an entire evening soldering one track joint, using all kinds of special filtered waters and gadgets to clean the joint, prime the metal, measure the soldering iron's tip temperature, etc.. If we were really going to build the club's 20 x 40 foot HO-scale layout according to George, we would still be measuring the first piece of 2x4 to make sure we had the length exactly right, down to within a micron. He also was the type who had nothing good to say about any other member's tools. One night he asked to borrow a drill bit because he had "forgotten" to bring the $500 set he had stolen from the Army. I had just received a set of bits, so I handed him one. He looked at it and exclaimed, "Huh! Made in India!! Goddam cheap junk is probably going to shatter as soon as I try to chuck it in my drill. Why don't you buy good tools?" He was removed from the club shortly after that.

Sounds like the guy needed his obsessive/compulsive medication prescription renewed...[:D]

[dharmon]

Rivet counters are not bad. I enjoy looking at some facinating models that are correct down to the tiniest details and in thier defese, they in no small part keep the aftermarket detail industry that I myself frequently use in business. But like most of us, I detail models to my level of satisfaction, as I have only me to please. Omission of minor detail to create an acceptable representation of what I am trying to achieve is okay in my book. I have not the time or money to make everything exactly as the prototype. What I do take consdierable offence to is the rivet counter, like mentioned above, who derives their status by knocking others modeling skills or interpretation of a prototype. It's a hobby...if you derive your enjoyment from rivet counting so be it. I do not, but don't slight my skills or focus because I don't choose your path of modelling. Unfortunately many of the rivet counters feel compelled to impose thier opinions on others....which is a good way to turn off younger and novice modellers from the hobby. I don't think that anyone here started HO with a FSM craftsman kit and a brass loco under the tree. I could be wrong...

[brothaslide]

To me a rivet counter is more of a "anal-retentive" type person. Everything has to be exact down to the last detial.

[Anonymous]

So... do I suffer from multiple personality disorder? [:o]

I detail motive power and rolling stock but not to the number of rivets level. I scratch build structures using photos to create a prototype but don't count the number of nails used. I use photos to create the landscape but don't count the number of trees. My layout is modeled after the ATSF line that follows Route 66 across northern AZ but not to the exact elevations. I don't openly criticize another modelers works but sometimes think, "he/she sure didn't put much effort into making it look real".

Hmmm... one personality says detail the other says it's close enough [:)] LOL [:)].

[Anonymous]

The rivet counters or the Piston Petes of the world, as I like to call them, should be avoided at all costs. Sometimes their information can be helpful, but having to wait for them to get to the point is an exercise in brutality. After a while of listening to them, I know I've had enough when my eyes begin to water and my jaw begins to ache from politely yawning with my mouth shut. I also find myself nodding in agreement with them to let them think I'm listening. I end up looking like one of those Slinky dogs in the back window of a car. Avoid the Piston Pete pariahs at all costs.