The fact is you really can't draw a thin black line between freelancing and "prototyping." Granted, the latter is anchored by guys like Jack Burgess who have every line pole and every weed in its place (Jack's the guy who does the spectacular model of the Yosemite Valley RR). But there's a spectrum, and I think the transition is very blurry at best.
I wouldn't pay much attention to the random, spasmatic postings of a troll. Nobody has any right to tell you how to spend your hobby time. I chose a prototype (PRR) but then chose to freelance a section of it for my layout. Why?
To quote a famous current politician, "I am the decider!!!" And so it is in your world too.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
DaveInTheHat wrote:Personally, I'm only in it for the fun. It doesn't matter to me. I enjoy looking at trains any scale any price range. I'll probably be running something kit bashed from a couple cheap swap meet finds. The main reason being I don't want to invest the money in expenisive trains. If someone has a problem with anything that model, it's their problem not mine.
Personally, I'm only in it for the fun. It doesn't matter to me. I enjoy looking at trains any scale any price range. I'll probably be running something kit bashed from a couple cheap swap meet finds. The main reason being I don't want to invest the money in expenisive trains. If someone has a problem with anything that model, it's their problem not mine.
My philosophy is "Model Railroading is Fun"! Besides the indoor freelanced Large Scale logging layout I'm building on #1 gauge track, I started modeling a Large Scale industrial/mining line using HO track. That comes out to around 15 prototype inches for the gauge. Although it's definitely freelanced, it's plausable and allows me to enjoy modeling in Large Scale in the space required for HO.
Jason-Train wrote:Assumptions often get made that cause folks to rethink the question , is MRR right for me. The assumptions most often come across in posts by the "MRR educated" that time, quality and costs are moot points. When I'd bet in every case, one of those three is a sacrifice.
My pictures: http://public.fotki.com/DaveInTheHat/
My videos & slideshows: http://www.youtube.com/user/daveinthehat/videos
My book: http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/411321
One magazine I really miss is AWNUTS (Always Whimsical, Not Usually To Scale)!! They had some great (and bizarre) train stuff in there done just for FUN - which no matter how serious we are, should always be a part of the hobby.
BTW, I thought I freelanced because I was too lazy to add all the correct details to this railroad or that railroad's engines!!
Jason I went the (You want something of quality and cheap , it will take a lot of time) route. After doing this for a year I am glad I did. But the few that follws my post all so rember times as well.
The worst thing for me was I did not understand the answers I was given for a while. Finaly sorted out the information and figured out how to use it. When you tell a new person you need to clean up the booster to make a car roll better, you need to tell them what a booster is! Have around 70 cheap Tyco's and LL making there rounds with no problems and pull as well if not better than Athearn RTR's.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
409 bulid what you like. I have ran into that kind of stuff in my HP Mopars. My 70 Cuda has a Fresh Air air cleaner (for working hood scoops) but hood scoops on my Cuda are none working.
Guy at a Mopar show started telling me how it wrong, looks silly and I should sell the rare air cleaner to some that needs it! I looked at him them pointed at another Cuda and said "go look at that one he has a round air cleaner" and walk off.
What other people model will have ne effect on me unless I like it and copy it.
Texas Zepher wrote: Jason-Train wrote:quality, time, cost I wish the gurus would reference something like that when they post advice. I'd also extend it to include "knowhow" or "ability" or "skill" in there. I am not certain I understand this point. Elaborate please.
Jason-Train wrote:quality, time, cost I wish the gurus would reference something like that when they post advice. I'd also extend it to include "knowhow" or "ability" or "skill" in there.
I wish the gurus would reference something like that when they post advice. I'd also extend it to include "knowhow" or "ability" or "skill" in there.
My post got eaten by the intarweb (dang it all, was good response to you too).
Cliff notes:
Assumptions often get made that cause folks to rethink the question , is MRR right for me. The assumptions most often come across in posts by the "MRR educated" that time, quality and costs are moot points. When I'd bet in every case, one of those three is a sacrifice.
The "Pick two" rule should only have three options, my attempt to add a fourth (skill) was incorrect. The three break down like this:
Quality = how skilled and knowledgable are you
Time = how fast do you want it
Money = how important is money
It often seems responses to folks assume all three are non-issues when usually that is far from reality.
To clarify the "Pick two" rule, it goes like this:
You want something fast and cheap, you will sacrifice quality
You want something fast and of quality, it will cost you
You want something of quality and cheap , it will take a lot of time
Hope you're following me. I hate the internet sometimes for eating posts /grrr !!
I think that a hobby is just that a hobby...
People have hobbies like Model RR to increase the fun and enjoyment in their lives...
If someone leaves because they can't kit bash like a experienced hobbyist then maybe this hobby is not for them...
I have tried many things in modeling and in other types of fine arts over the years...
Some have been great successes some have been terrible flops...
As in any hobby if it feels good do it...if it hurts stop doing it...
This is the wisdom of the Cream Corn...
Later....
Nice modeling Perry. I enjoyed the slide show. Thanks.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I think there's room in the hobby for the real, the unreal, and the unlucky. Diversity matters and provides something for everyone to enjoy. (IMHO)
The real ???
The unreal...
The unlucky...
My web site (updated monthly)
http://home.mchsi.com/~ironmaster1960/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
Scott,
With the way the Internet is these days, it's easy for the "spineless" to become "bold as a lion" in their stealthy attacks on others - whether that's here on the forum or when leaving a comment on someone's web site.
It's obvious that this particular "night raider" gets his jollies from putting others down so that they can boost himself up. I wouldn't even take what he has to say to heart. For a "dork", you put together a pretty nice looking web site.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
I have worked on various propulsion projects including fuel cell, electric and electric-hybrid drives. I looked at your designs and think they are very imaginative and plausible. You did a great job on the website as well. You should be proud.
The person who posted the negative comment was probably jealous. Jealously can be a terrible thing. It is easy for someone to leave a stupid comment, no special skills required. The person needs to get a life and stop looking to hurt others.
On the subject of freelancing, I doubt it has any negative effect. Look at some of the great freelanced model railroads. Most inspire us all.
Tyco and other low-end train sets have drove more people from the hobby than anything else.
Jim
Jason-Train wrote:quality, time, costI wish the gurus would reference something like that when they post advice. I'd also extend it to include "knowhow" or "ability" or "skill" in there.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Many present day model railroaders started off like that, running trains. My first train in 1950 was a 027 Lionel steam engine with smoke, whistle, operating milk car, operating log car, searchlight car and a couple more cars. A friend had an O gauge Santa Fe twind diesel with passenger cars. Those engines where huge. That was quite a train. With four younger brothers, nothing of mine survived. All I ever had was a loop. Another friend had a 027 layout in his cellar and all we did is run trains.Many years later I had the funds and home to build a HO layout. Yes, it is freelance. I still put 027 Marx around the Christmas tree. Many model railroaders forget their humble beginnings.
rich
richg1998 wrote:Quote:Do Freelancers drive away people? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here is a Very Clear Answer to your question. It is fact, not opinion or "they say" or "I heard". Isn't weird that you cannot find those two groups.http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070303/lf_nm/life_trains_dc_2The article will no doubt start some of the old timers complaining that it is "just running trains", not modeling. Oh, this thread is the greatest. Thanks for starting it. By the way, I am 66 and I know how people my age can get to be a nit picky grouch.rich
Do Freelancers drive away people?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a Very Clear Answer to your question. It is fact, not opinion or "they say" or "I heard". Isn't weird that you cannot find those two groups.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070303/lf_nm/life_trains_dc_2
The article will no doubt start some of the old timers complaining that it is "just running trains", not modeling.
Oh, this thread is the greatest. Thanks for starting it.
By the way, I am 66 and I know how people my age can get to be a nit picky grouch.
That's an interesting article. I enjoyed reading that one.
What got me though, is the "Kids don't want to assemble sets." Sure, I guess for most it's true...It's amazing how lazy kids are getting nowadays. And the kid that said that was 16...
Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern
Being new to the what I hope to be a long lived hobby for me I will point out some flaws but I wouldn't say "freelancers" cause them.
My biggest "beef" with MRR communities, not just this one, is whatever you call that "don't make the same mistakes I made" syndrome.
These forums offer some much great data I can't even express my thanks to all (well 99% of the posters), especially the long timers, guys like selector, brakie, chip, etc etc, lots of them I've missed.
However what I find is that sometimes the forums desires to avoid the syndrome I described above leaves the first time hobbiest with an uneasy feeling of, "am I SURE MRR is right for me?". Especially the young maybe unsure types. Could it be scaring away folks, I'd say yeah, probably some but I don't think enough to offset the gurus sounds advice.
What I don't see enough from the "guru's" is:
"<place the best advice / solution / etc here> but whatever makes YOU happy"
It seems that alot of advice goes along the "Choose two can't have three rule" but the gurus tend pick all three.
quality, time, cost
I use the word gurus in the sense of compliment, I don't want folks to think I'm "name calling"
Personally, I look in awe(sp) at some of the screen shots folks put up. It isn't even something I would attempt to strive for, good gosh some of the shots, it is difficult to tell it is a model at all.
All that said, you can't deny the intimidateing feeling some gurus leave with some folks though.
emdgp92 ,There is certainly nothing wrong with that approach.Sounds very believable.
My freelance short line Columbus & Hocking Valley is named after the original C&HV from the 1880s.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Getting into this a bit late.... I don't think anyone's killing the hobby.
Right now, I have a small Penn Central-themed switching layout. It's set in southwestern Pennsylvania. However, it's not really based on one area--I took bits and pieces of various towns and spliced them all together. Originally, I was going to model a 1970s (or even 1980s) version of the Waynesburg & Washington RR. (This was a former PRR narrow-gauge branch that was widened after WWII.) However, by the 1970s, it was mostly abandoned, or absorbed by the Monongahela. I've chosen to model things as they could have been, but under PC instead of Conrail. Because of this, I had to take a few liberties:
1. MGA got rid of their Baldwins in 1974. By '74, only two were still running--the rest had been scrapped. Does that stop me from running them? No. I run them because I like them.
2. The main switching area is a composite of many towns I've driven through. Rather than model things *exactly* I wanted to capture the "feel" of the area. At one time, there were factories and warehouses in both of the W&W's end points. In fact, I've actually modeled a more prosperous area than is reality.
3. Passenger service on the W&W ended in 1929. I have not only two four-car Amtrak trains, but an RDC as well. Totally unprototypical, but I think these trains add to it.
Does any of this lessen my enjoyment? Not really. The reason I'm Proto-lancing, is to leave out some things, I'd miss out. I could have modeled things the way they are, but who wants to model a (mostly) abandoned railroad? I also could have modeled things during the W&W's glory days. However, I have little patience for handlaying track, and there's not much available--even a model of the last W&W steam engine left is well over $200, and that's if you can find one.
My feeling has always been--there's enough things to do in model railroading...that there's something for everyone.
I don't think so.
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5633
-Smoke
BRAKIE wrote: IRONROOSTER wrote: It's interesting reading this thread. It appears that many (most?) folks think of free lancing as having your own railroad name. But suppose you run cars lettered for someone else's road. As an example, I have all the NMRA's Heritage and Living Legends cars (at least all that were done in S). If I run a G&D boxcar behind my GG1, which I do, am I freelancing? What about if I model the Ma&Pa and I have a 4-6-0 camelback lettered for the Ma&Pa, even though they never had one?What if some of my buildings are from Bar Mills with a New England look, but I use them in a village on the Southern?How many people are so pure that they never do any of this? Or are we all free lancers?Just curiousPaul Paul,If I may.. There are several approaches to the hobby and its up to the modeler to choose his/her own path. Over the years of observation I have group them as:Fantasy modeling..This is where anything goes to include a camelback lettered for Ma & Pa or a GG1 lettered for Chessie..Prototype modeling..This is where a modeler models a given prototype on a generic layout or club layout and not worry if his/her engines are correctly detailed other then minor details such as hood mounted bells and horn type.They model close enough/good enoughAdvanced Prototype modeling..This is where the modeler wants 110% accuracy for all locomotives and all freight cars.His/her layout will be a given division, era and year.This is the hardest modeling style because of the strict disciplines needed to model in such fashion..Freelance..This is where a modeler models a fictitious railroad based on strict disciplines to include area,year,road name,color scheme ect..The thing here is to have a believable freelance railroad.Now a freelance railroad that the owners uses say CSX and CR locomotives this is not a true freelance railroad.It is in truth a paper railroad owned jointly by CSX and CR..Nothing wrong with that approach either..Free Wheelers..These are the modelers that I enjoy the most..God bless 'em..They have no qualms about running a Big Boy along side of a SD90MAC or a 4-4-0 along side of a GP38-2..There is no doubt these free wheelers probably have more fun then all other types of modelers put together because they follow no disciplines!The operating collector..He/she has locomotives from several railroads for a given era and follows no set disciplines other then to collect whatever catches his/her eye..
IRONROOSTER wrote: It's interesting reading this thread. It appears that many (most?) folks think of free lancing as having your own railroad name. But suppose you run cars lettered for someone else's road. As an example, I have all the NMRA's Heritage and Living Legends cars (at least all that were done in S). If I run a G&D boxcar behind my GG1, which I do, am I freelancing? What about if I model the Ma&Pa and I have a 4-6-0 camelback lettered for the Ma&Pa, even though they never had one?What if some of my buildings are from Bar Mills with a New England look, but I use them in a village on the Southern?How many people are so pure that they never do any of this? Or are we all free lancers?Just curiousPaul
It's interesting reading this thread.
It appears that many (most?) folks think of free lancing as having your own railroad name.
But suppose you run cars lettered for someone else's road. As an example, I have all the NMRA's Heritage and Living Legends cars (at least all that were done in S). If I run a G&D boxcar behind my GG1, which I do, am I freelancing?
What about if I model the Ma&Pa and I have a 4-6-0 camelback lettered for the Ma&Pa, even though they never had one?
What if some of my buildings are from Bar Mills with a New England look, but I use them in a village on the Southern?
How many people are so pure that they never do any of this? Or are we all free lancers?
Just curious
Paul
Paul,If I may.. There are several approaches to the hobby and its up to the modeler to choose his/her own path.
Over the years of observation I have group them as:
Fantasy modeling..This is where anything goes to include a camelback lettered for Ma & Pa or a GG1 lettered for Chessie..
Prototype modeling..This is where a modeler models a given prototype on a generic layout or club layout and not worry if his/her engines are correctly detailed other then minor details such as hood mounted bells and horn type.They model close enough/good enough
Advanced Prototype modeling..This is where the modeler wants 110% accuracy for all locomotives and all freight cars.His/her layout will be a given division, era and year.This is the hardest modeling style because of the strict disciplines needed to model in such fashion..
Freelance..This is where a modeler models a fictitious railroad based on strict disciplines to include area,year,road name,color scheme ect..The thing here is to have a believable freelance railroad.Now a freelance railroad that the owners uses say CSX and CR locomotives this is not a true freelance railroad.It is in truth a paper railroad owned jointly by CSX and CR..Nothing wrong with that approach either..
Free Wheelers..These are the modelers that I enjoy the most..God bless 'em..They have no qualms about running a Big Boy along side of a SD90MAC or a 4-4-0 along side of a GP38-2..
There is no doubt these free wheelers probably have more fun then all other types of modelers put together because they follow no disciplines!
The operating collector..He/she has locomotives from several railroads for a given era and follows no set disciplines other then to collect whatever catches his/her eye..
I think I saw a new term in the latest 'How to build realistic Layout'! It's called 'Prototype Freelancing'!!! LOL Seriously! It's the only way to go these days especially for modern stuff.
Paul3 wrote: Man, I really wouldn't worry about it. Obviously a troll. Probably a kid (seriously...who uses the word "dork" after high school?). Totally jealous. Ignore it. In fact, if it was me, I'd delete this thread here because I wouldn't want to give them the satisfaction of knowing that I even read their useless diatribe, but that's your call.IMHO, what really drives away people from the hobby is 1) cheap equipment that doesn't work very well. Train set stuff, IOW. 2) the skills required to build a model railroad. Some people just don't have 'em, and don't want to learn 'em. 3) a lack of knowledge of prices & value. IOW, newbies take one look at a BLI steamer at $400 and gasp...meanwhile there's a perfectly good Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 for under $100, or a P1K diesel for $75, or an Athearn BB for $55.Free lancers and prototypers are near the bottom of the list of reasons why not to be a model railroader. Pure rubbish, IOW.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Man, I really wouldn't worry about it. Obviously a troll. Probably a kid (seriously...who uses the word "dork" after high school?). Totally jealous. Ignore it. In fact, if it was me, I'd delete this thread here because I wouldn't want to give them the satisfaction of knowing that I even read their useless diatribe, but that's your call.
IMHO, what really drives away people from the hobby is 1) cheap equipment that doesn't work very well. Train set stuff, IOW. 2) the skills required to build a model railroad. Some people just don't have 'em, and don't want to learn 'em. 3) a lack of knowledge of prices & value. IOW, newbies take one look at a BLI steamer at $400 and gasp...meanwhile there's a perfectly good Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 for under $100, or a P1K diesel for $75, or an Athearn BB for $55.
Free lancers and prototypers are near the bottom of the list of reasons why not to be a model railroader. Pure rubbish, IOW.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Hahaha...I think otherwise! I thnk he is a lonely bitter old man who had nothing else better to do since there is nothing else to work on his layout because it's been modeled to perfection and already looked just like the real thing! LOL
Well, first of all, what a person want to do with hobby is entirely his own business and no one else's.
Secondly, it's a free market, you like it you buy and if you don't like it, then walk away!
I think it's that person who is ruining the hobby industry beause they are so critical of others, always think he's always right and there is no one above him (self centred).
I wouldn't worry about it, I mean in modern railroading, it's impossible to model a prototype container train or even a mixed goods train because they are simply too long anyway! So what gives? If I recall correctly, there is even a freelanced 2-10-2 product review in the Feb issue of MRR, is he going to complain to the editor about that as well?
TrainFreak409 wrote:I just checked the guestbook on my website, and found a very interesting comment left there on February 20, 2007.http://www.freewebs.com/sblocomotives/guestbook.htmAnd that seriously got me thinking...Do Freelancers drive away people? Maybe possibly in the respect that many freelancers will kit-bash or scratch-build differently styled motive power or rolling stock or whatnot; and newcomers may look upon this, try their hand, find they cannot do it the first time, and leave the hobby.
I just checked the guestbook on my website, and found a very interesting comment left there on February 20, 2007.
http://www.freewebs.com/sblocomotives/guestbook.htm
And that seriously got me thinking...
Do Freelancers drive away people? Maybe possibly in the respect that many freelancers will kit-bash or scratch-build differently styled motive power or rolling stock or whatnot; and newcomers may look upon this, try their hand, find they cannot do it the first time, and leave the hobby.
Do people who build their own computers ruin the computer industry? There will always be people who will buy off-the shelf computers, and the manufacturers will always make them (Dell, Apple, Gateway, etc.) Likewise there will always be people who will buy their own CPUs, cases, RAM, hard drives, motherboards, etc.