I wanted to share my disappointment with others who may be deciding on investing in the Tower 55 product line.
I have two boys, ages 8 and 9 who are very much interested in learning all there is to know about the hobby of HO trains. We have attended the train show at the Big E in Springfield MA, for the last four years.
After reading many published books, magazine articles, Internet forums and talking to others, we decided that we were armed with enough information to take the plunge and start to embark on a family hobby that has held the interest of my boys and me. I have been amazed at the research the two young lads have conducted over the last several months.
We decided that DCC was the way we wanted to go and purchased a LENZ 100 system (we are very happy about that investment).
This past fall we really pushed forward with designing a layout and putting some track down. Many of the older people involved with the hobby, gave us advise that went something like, don't get bogged down in making a perfect layout, before you and your boys run some trains. Have fun running the stuff and add the detail as you go!
Well we took heed of that advice and setup a staging yard that is full of track, switches and rolling stock. As with any new start up, the decision on which engines to buy was difficult. The boys decided that they wanted modern Era equipment with some of the big bad diesels that are out there, they both purchased Atlas Engines at the 2006 Big E show - using saved X-mas and birthday money.
This past X-mas, I decided to purchase some new engines for my two boys. One of the boys is a UP fan and the other is an NS fan. After doing some searching, I decided to invest in one of the Tower 55 UP C45ACCTE engines. My son has had his eye on this type of engine for at least 6 months - everyday, looking at the Internet to see what pictures and stories he could find, as related to Engines of this style.
After searching the Internet, I found a Hobby shop that was actually not far from my house (1 hour drive) that had this Tower 55 Engine in stock. So I had it UPS shipped to me to avoid the hassle of driving during the Holiday. The box arrived and when I opened it up, I had noticed one of the two ditch lights was missing. So I phoned the Hobby shop and spoke to the same person that processed the order. He said no problem; these things happen sometimes, we'll order you a replacement. So I wrapped up the package and enjoyed the look of surprise on my Sons face on X-mas morning. We put it on the track and ran it that morning.
As I looked closely at the Engine, admiring its great detail, I noticed that one of the air horns was cast incorrectly - it was barely noticeable, but there none-the-less.
After some fun running the engine, the inevitable idea of running a double header with the Atlas Silver series engine came to be. With much excitement and some in depth reading of the Lenz manual, the double header was assembled and started to run. Rather quickly it was noticed that the Tower 55 engine was running at a much faster speed then the Atlas engine. I told my son we would have to do some research to determine how to correct this issue.
Here is where the real disappointment appeared with this expensive Tower 55 product. The box that the Tower 55 engine arrived in contained no manual, but rather a pamphlet that referred the consumer to the Digitrax web site. The pamphlet related that the decoder for this unit "is like the DH163". Well in looking at the Digitrax web site, there is not a DH163 - there are several DH163 plus a letter. So for a novice DCC user who is trying to figure out how to program CV values to slow down this engine, frustration was high. I figured that my lack of knowledge was the problem and I would simply talk to some vendors at the Big E show this year.
So just two weeks ago my boys and I head off to the show, armed with a list of things to see, buy and discuss.
First stop - Lenz. I believe the name of the very knowledgeable person from Lenz was Debbie. We have talked to Debbie at several other shows and continue to be impressed with her product knowledge and desire to educate her potential and existing customers. We explained our dilemma and had a pleasant smile returned to us and the statement that we were now moving beyond the world of simple DCC. She embarked on the challenge of showing all of us (the boys included) how we go about configuring CV values. She showed us a great print out of what a manual might contain, as related to programming decoders - it seemed challenging, but not impossible. She suggested we head on over to the Tower 55 both and ask them about a manual or at the very least a CV list, so next stop, Tower 55.
Hmmm.... Customer service????
We walked up to the person standing in the Tower 55 both, who was in mid conversation. We were not certain of who the other party was in the conversation, but some of the conversation included acknowledgement that Tower 55 has been getting good exposure in Model Railroader magazine. To my amazement the Tower 55 rep made the statement "we are getting that good exposure, because everyone else's product is junk!" I could not believe what I just heard. The other person responded with an appropriate reply of "that comment is not necessary"
So they exchange good byes and I have my chance to chat with the Tower 55 rep. I explained our situation with the double header challenge. I also conveyed that I was disappointed at the lack of a real manual. I related that this was the most expensive engine we have purchased, and the lack of a manual was less then appealing to me. I was informed that the Digitrax web site is full of information and suffices as the manual. When I related that the DH163 is not one of the products, I was informed that I did not read the pamphlet correctly - "It is like the DH163". At this point the rep pulled out a three ring binder with a listing of the more common CV values - I said this would have been great to include with your product. He informed me that this was not available at time of production and the same information was available at the Digitrax web site. He further related that Digitrax would also offer tech support and that if I were not totally satisfied with the response I was getting from Tower 55, that I could call Digitrax. He also supplied me with his card and I asked that I E-mail him my question and he would send a copy of this CV list to me. Well two weeks have gone by and my E-mail has not been responded to.
I did go back to the Digitrax web site and located what seems to be the correct manual for the Tower 55 decoder - at least I think. I tired adjusting the CV values that seemed to apply to speed curves, in an effort to match the very smooth, even, and slow movement as seen in the $70 Atlas Silver Series that we bought last year. The result - terrible - the Tower 55 engine is now jerky, fast out of the gate and not even close to the operation of the Atlas engine - obviously a reset to factory spec is in order.
I will be calling Digitrax tech support to see if I can get some help from them.
This was a long post and a chance for me to vent my frustration to all those who care to read. If Tower 55 takes the time to read this, I hope that you either increase the cost of your engines to the point that us simple folk can't afford them, or make a much greater effort in the area of customer service - maybe Lenz would be able to offer you a few pointers in that area? They seem to remember that young hobbyist will grow up and continue to buy the products from the people that supported their product.
If you've been playing around with the three Back-EMF CV values (CV's 55, 56, and 57) you probably have made a bit of a mess of the decoder. You can get back to the starting point by programming CV8 to the value 8. This will reset the decoder completely, including the address back to 03. It has been recommended previously to always do the reset, even fresh out of the box.
Speed matching is tricky at best, especially when the locomotives are from completely different manufacturers. Motor types, motor speed, and gearing are all going to be different. The Lenz system should allow programming in Ops Mode, while trains are running. If you have a continuous loop layout you can take advantage of this to adjust the faster loco to match the slwer one. First try just using the Start (CV02), Mid (CV06) and Top (CV05) values to get an approximation. Programming a full 28 step speed table is not the easiest thing in the world. Not wanting to confuse you more, but if you get the Lenz computer interface and the free JMRI software you can program all those CV values for a speed table simply by using the mouse to shape a curve on the screen.
As for the words of the rep - that is really surprising. At the national Train Show at the NMRA in Philly, Brian Marsh himself was at the Tower55/Overland booth, and while I didn't speak directly with him (I can't afford Overland's brass, and since I model the 50's, Tower55 currently does not have any products I am interested in, other than to see what they look like), all the people at the booth were quie helpful in answering questions.
The limited manual seems to be the standard for sound-equipped locos. Atlas probably has the most comprehensive in their Gold series, but even that only gives the most basic information on setting up the decoder. To get the FULL story you have to download a 150+ page manual from the QSI web site (maker of the decoder).
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have now 5 UP GEVO's and they are all running very smoothly but I had one unit that started running and only later would the sound start.
Tower 55 was really helpful solving this problem and now evertyhing is as it should be... I talked to Brian Marsh and his Wife when they were at the Switzerland US Trains Convention and they were very nice and friendly.
I can't comment on how difficult it is running Tower 55 models together with a model from other manufacturers but this year I'll buy me the ESU EcOS Station and then I also will jump into programming everything.
I guess DCC is just a learning curve and every week I learn new stuff about my locos and DCC and how to adjust and programm stuff.
Interesting story, but other than the issue of the missing ditch light and irregular horn casting, it is much more an issue of programming DCC speed curves. This is going to be an issue with trying to match units from any two ventors not just Tower 55 specifically.
When I first saw this post I thought it was going to deal with the fantasy paint schemes (I mean classic concept paint schemes) being applied to the units. That can't possibly help children learn the history of the US railroads.
Hmm,
I have been wanting a ES44AC for a while and have not heard this kind of displeasure for tower 55 yet. Do you have a picture of the horn that was molded wrong??
-Smoke
Smoke wrote: I wanted to share my disappointment with others who may be deciding on investing in the Tower 55 product line. Hmm,I have been wanting a ES44AC for a while and have not heard this kind of displeasure for tower 55 yet. Do you have a picture of the horn that was molded wrong?? -Smoke
The horns on many of the new GE prototypes have the two bells toward the rear, not to the front as the units prior to the new ones. Several modelers thought this to be incorrect, but it was correct like the real ones were delivered. Since that time, some have been reversed by the Union Pacific shop crews and now are forward. The Tower 55 models were correct as delivered if this is the problem. Picture below shows bells toward the rear on UP 5456.
http://ncespee.railfan.net/UP/upc45accte/up5456.html
The first picture I took of one of the Union Pacific new GE's had the bells towards the rear.
I found a picture of the BSF 6006 and its bells are toward the rear also. Must be sound abatement.
The picture below shows the bells toward the rear, but this is correct for those UP prototypes when they were delivered. I have since seen some that have been changed.
http://www.tower55products.com/showroom.php?model_name_id=23
The advanced DCC programming for the DH163 decoder in the Tower 55 model can be downloaded from the Digitrax web site. www.digitrax.com
The picture above shows the bells toward the rear, but this is correct for those UP and GE Demo unit prototypes when they were delivered. I have since seen some of the UP units that have been changed.
doc manago wrote:I´ve a Tower 55 Gevo ES44AC Demonstrator scheme. Has excellent paint and wery smooth running (Cannon motor); about the sound, has many variations, but hasn´t the deepness of the QSI and ESU: maybe 2 speakers instead of just 1 is important; about the price, 10% less should be right.
My 5 UP GEVOs were an average of $259 each and that's the sound version. I think this is a fair price for such a great model. I mean the $299 are only the list price and the models can be found cheaper.
Thank you to all who have commented and listening to me.
Randy I just reset as you suggested by setting CV8 to 8.
I ran the engine again at the factory default value and notice that the engine runs smoothly in the forward direction, but is somewhat jerky in the reverse operation.
I then changed the CV2 value and the CV6 value, to dial in a starting speed that is a close but not yet perfect match to the Atlas Silver engine (this engine runs incredibly smooth at both slow and fast speeds, in both forward and reverse). In the forward direction the engines seem to work out in a double header configuration, but in reverse they don't mix at all, because of the jerky motion of the Tower 55.
I intend on contacting the hobby shop that I purchased the engine from and asking them for some help. Perhaps there is a problem with this engine.
As for the photo of the horn, I will try to post when, when I get a free minute (that is the least of my troubles right now!)
Is this still the unit that had physical damage, or is it the replacement? I'm thinking if it took enough knocks to damage the ditch light there may be somethign else out of whack, particularly with the drive. Steam locos are famous for operting better in one direction (usually everse) out of the box, but diesels are pretty much symmetrical and normally don't have this problem. After the CV8=8 reset, that eliminates any strange programming of the 3 CVs Digitrax uses to control the BackEMF - configuring those wrong can result in some VERY jerky operation - right down to emulating an old Athearn rubber-band drive. The Cannon motors and drive mechanisms used in the Tower55 and Overland models are renowned for their smoothness - ignoring factors such as the DCC decoder, they should run every bit as smooth as Atlas, if not a bit better.
Looks like a computer based graphical speed step programming is in order. You need to find the Atlas's speed curve and try to match the onery Tower to it.
Im not sure about the reception you got at the show with the big chart at one place and a three ring binder in another. Hardly the place to attend DCC skool.. err.. university.
Me? I would plop both of the units onto that man's table and ask him to match em. That will put the three ring binder to work now would it not?
Digitrax, QSI and others have manuals online, some of which is quite "FAT" and require months of soaking... err.. study.
For that kind of money involved I feel it's just too much.
Here is a wild idea... you laugh but try it on a moment.. replace the decoder with one you KNOW works or can MAKE work.
What decoder is the Atlas Engine using? Or are you trying to horsewhip a high strung DCC race horse into copy-catting a analog engine?
I have a pair of classic atlas RS-1's and boy do they glide. Makes my BLI F units look like they are equipped with square wheels and '20's chain drive.
Sorry to read about your experience. But, don't let one rude, unprofessional company rep sour your feeling towards the products. If you haven't already, inform Digitrax and Overland of your experience and let them know this rep may be costing them potential sales.
I have a bit of an idea how you felt. I had a rude encounter with a DCC rep at a Sarasota Train show in 2004. I was interested in Digitrax products and he persistently shoved NCE at me instead, badgering me rudely like Rosie O'Donnell. Nevertheless he lost a customer.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Randy - Perhaps I did not convey the proper message about the ditch lite damage. I only recieved a replacement ditch light, not a replacement Engine. The horn did not appear to be damaged, but rather poorly made. The person in the Tower 55 booth explained to me that the horns are actually brass and can be easily bent. He further related that it is not uncommon for those horns to become bent in the shipping process and that a gentle nudge will restore them to orignal. Hmmmm.... does that mean that an improvement in packing is in order? Anyway, when I looked at the horn upon returning home from the show, it is not bent - it is poorly cast.
Safety Valve - Hind sight is 20/20 - had I expected Tower 55 to offer this type of support, I would have brought both engines with me to the show and put them on the table and say okay - lets see this $275 engine run as well as this $70 engine! I had not considered the decorder replacement concept - I don't really enjoy the idea of investing more money into my most expensive unit - it certainly may offer some answers to where the problem may be - in the drive or in the decoder.
To answer your question about what decorder is in the Atlas, I'm not sure - it is the right of of the box as purchased from an Atlas dealer - with no modifications, and is perhaps the best running engine we have!
Speed curves, decoders, CV values - all great stuff to be able to learn and manipulate. Is it beyond the scope of a rookie -absolutely, but if the rookies don't play the game, they will never become seasoned veterans!
I have contacted the Hobby Shop we purchased this unit from and are awainting their reply.
I am hoping that there is a fix available for this engine, as it is a great looking and sounding unit.
I really don't get it but you really have had bad luck!
5 UP GEVO's and all arrived well and safe without any parts bent or damaged (and my Hobby Shop is not only 1 hour away but several hundred miles). I actually think the packaging is really good and does protect the model.
Also I need to ask if you have the Tower 55 model with the first decoder version or if you have the updated one? This can be easily found out by looking at the Original Box and there on the label is a red dot. If that red dot has a "3" in it then you have the updated version and if not I recommend you update that decoder.
This updating was necessary by 1 of my 5 models and they run together very smooth now...
Why don't you exchange it for a same new one at your LHS? This would be the only logical step since you have so much trouble with it and maybe that model you have is really defective?
I wanted to share my latest - I spoke to the local hobby shop. They advised me that the best thing I could do at this point is speak to the CEO of Overland, Brian Marsh.
So I just got off the phone with him. He explained that they, along with other manufacturers are having a very difficult time with linking up to everybodies system. He did agree that the comments made by the rep at the show were not appropriate.
He is willing to fix or replace the unit as needed and has asked me to confirm the Red Dot # 3 that was mentioned in Daniels reply. He senses that this may have been one of the early units that does not have the upgraded decoder. So when I get home tonight, I will be checking the box and advising him of my finding.
He also related that there server was hit with a virus and they had not recieved any E-mail the week following the BiG E show - and that is probably the reason that I did not get a reply.
I will post a follow up when this is all cleaned up and we have a top notch engine to run along with our others.
Speed matching is rather an advanced topic for DCC locomotives. It's not surprising that the Overland and Atlas locos out-of-the-box will run at different speeds -- even the same model locos from the same manufacturer won't necessarily run at the same (or even close) speeds. It's rather the nature of the beast, its due to the properties of the electric motors and drive trains that are used in model trains. That's not to say that most models will not run close enough together, but expect some variability, and sometimes those variations can be large. It isn't really practical for manufacturers to make locos that are all speed matched at the factory.
I've used DCC to speed-match my N-scale locos so that they could run together with long trains on steep grades without fighting each other or encountering too much wheel slip. This involved adjusting the CVs 2, 6, and 5 values to alter the speed of each loco esp. at the top and middle speeds. (I did not use the 28-step speed tables that were available in my decoders.) It is something of a trial-and-error approach. The key thing is that you need some sort of reference. Some folks use one loco as the reference and match all their other locos to that one. You can also use the Trainspeed speedometer which costs about $50 from http://www.tonystrains.com/products/tdp-assoc_speed.htm and you have to set it up; but it gives you the advantages of consistency and faster tuning, and displays the loco speed in scale mph.
There was an article in the Sept. 2006 Model Railroader (p. 78) that detailed the speed matching process. Also here are a few links to some webpages that discuss speed matching and setting the speed stabilization on your decoders:
http://www.wave.co.nz/~lakewood/MyWP.htm
http://www.wave.co.nz/~lakewood/Speed/Speed3step.htm
http://www.wave.co.nz/~lakewood/BEMF.htm
http://www.wave.co.nz/~lakewood/Speed/Speed.htm
Note that the last link covers an alternative way to measure loco speed, but it is a DIY project to build it.
Digitrax on their website has some documentation on setting the speed/stabilization CVs for their It's also a very good idea to join some of the DCC email groups on Yahoo (such as Digitrax@yahoogroups.com) as these have lots of experienced & helpful people who have dealt with many of the issues that you are likely to encounter when using DCC. I don't think you need to go about changing decoders just yet. Just realize that DCC still is a relatively new technology and that as control systems go, model locomotives aren't always going to yield the most consistent or precise results (even with BEMF enabled). Still, IMHO DCC is the best way to go over other brute-force techniques such as diode-drop or re-gearing your locos. The key thing is to be aware that it will take some time, and don't get too discouraged.... actually if you are blessed enough to have sons who are interested in working on it together with you, it can be quite a teaching/learning experience.
Hope this helps,
Ed Nadolski
I can proudly say that I do have two great kids. They are smart and eager to learn.
I was very impressed with Debbie at the Lenz booth, when she handed my 8 year the LH100 throttle and gave him direction on how to go into programming mode and lookup CV values, program CV values and then start up and run the newly programmed display engine. To my two boys it was like okay Dad here is what we need to do - and they did remember everyhting that Debbie showed them.
Working on this layout with my two lads has been and continues to be a wonderful experience. To them every morning is like X-mas, as they look at and work on the layou, and run their trains. The joy that my wife and I get from just watching them is well worth the effort spent to make it all happen.
One of my sons made me feel really good when he said "Dad I want to do the same thing with my kids!"
Thank you to all who have offered support and guidance. Taking on the challenge, rather than becoming discouraged is what my intent is. Hopefully I will be able to share some of my learning with others on the forum as well
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum