Hello Grayfox,
I note that you received your copy of Cadrail8 in February. Since then, how accustomed have you become with the software?
Given that I'm contemplating purchasing either 3rd PlanIt or CADrail8 I'm curious to ascertain your experiences. The closest I've come to using a CAD program is basic Corel Draw and from what I've read, with the acquisition of either one, I'm in for a pretty steep learning curve.
My reasons for purchasing either CADrail or 3PI are to design a layout firstly, and once thats completed use it to convert plans to N scale.
Thanks,
Geoff
grayfox1119 wrote: CADRail version 8 ( latest version ) arrived at the house on Wednesday along with the manual, which, so far, I found very good. I have read therough the 1st 55 pages and performed many of the sample steps, and also did the 1st simple oval with one turnout. It has all the tools for Atlas, ME and many other manufacturers for their tracks and turnouts of various sizes, it can do elevations, easements, buildings, mountains and elevations as well as 3d view.......so it sounds like it is very much the same as 3rdPlanit in scope. Looking at the math on how this program was derived, it is a true CAD program, the accuracy is precise. Lets see how the rest of the reading goes before final judgement. I will give further update as I progress along.
CADRail version 8 ( latest version ) arrived at the house on Wednesday along with the manual, which, so far, I found very good. I have read therough the 1st 55 pages and performed many of the sample steps, and also did the 1st simple oval with one turnout. It has all the tools for Atlas, ME and many other manufacturers for their tracks and turnouts of various sizes, it can do elevations, easements, buildings, mountains and elevations as well as 3d view.......so it sounds like it is very much the same as 3rdPlanit in scope. Looking at the math on how this program was derived, it is a true CAD program, the accuracy is precise. Lets see how the rest of the reading goes before final judgement.
I will give further update as I progress along.
Have fun. Sue
Anything is possible if you do not know what you are talking about.
gear-jammer wrote: We purchased the 3rd PlanIt software before starting our new layout. It is true that there are a lot of features with this program, but it allows you to build and run a layout on your PC before driving one nail. I was surprised when construction started on our layout and everything fit. The turnouts fit between the curves. The passing siding fit. Everything worked! In my opinion its a $100 bucks well spent. Larry
We purchased the 3rd PlanIt software before starting our new layout. It is true that there are a lot of features with this program, but it allows you to build and run a layout on your PC before driving one nail. I was surprised when construction started on our layout and everything fit. The turnouts fit between the curves. The passing siding fit. Everything worked! In my opinion its a $100 bucks well spent.
Larry
Same here. 3rdPlanit is very feature rich and helped me find a few mistakes (i.e. like trying to connect two tracks on different elevations) ahead of time. I also liked the ability to use it like a regular CAD program and add layers for turnout numbering, blocks and more. If you've never used a CAD program it has a small learning curve but if you have it is a breeze.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
I can say that I like 3rd Planit... I purchased one of their first versions and it set for 4 years since I could not get it to do what the tutorial said.... Probably operator error but I know my way around computers somewhat and cad programs are no stranger to me.
I purchased an up grade version and was most pleased with the performance. There is a newer version out now I believe. It is not intuitive but the handbook is well written and I have designed my railroad empire on it. The beauty of 3D is that you can see how your grades and scenery will look... It eliminates the potential of low clearance when passing under another level...
Any of the full cad systems should be worth the money... You will have to read the book however... (I know real men don't read instructions).... I started at 50 and the world quickly got easier.
Good luck..
Roger
This has been an entertaining discussion about who reads the manuals and are they written in english for the lay person. In our household, my husband used the 3rd PlanIt manual for the icon translation. Since he had the manual with him in the truck, I had to learn by trial and error. Sometimes 2 heads are better than one. for 3rd PlanIt.
Sue
grayfox1119 wrote:Joe-Daddy.....you cheated!!!!! LOL, you looked at Brunton's PROFILE, and saw that he was indeed an Engineer..........So "ideally" we want the AVERAGE Joe to rate these products, not someone with an IQ of 140 .
Joe-Daddy.....you cheated!!!!! LOL, you looked at Brunton's PROFILE, and saw that he was indeed an Engineer..........
So "ideally" we want the AVERAGE Joe to rate these products, not someone with an IQ of 140 .
You are not a gray fox, you are a gray rascal! [:)}
What I was doing with Brunton was telling him and you that his message was akin to what I expect from engineers and that he had passed the sniff test for legitimacy. I pretty confident that he is a licensed Mechanical Engineer who could provide his license number and stamp if it were required. (no intent to invade your personal privacy, Brunton).
So far as the average Joe, I guess I'm as close as you get, but I gotta tell you I am the below average fellow.
To your IQ point, I think it is more a historical experience and learning style issue than intelligence. Truth be known, my intelligence is more than adequate, but when I am in learning mode, some things can be very difficult to understand because of the way I have always done similar things elsewhere in the past. Case in point, I expect to left click on a turnout icon then move to the insertion point and right click again to insert the turnout. As I recall, almost every cadd program out there does that trivial thing somewhat differently. Figuring out the 'short hand' of creative developers can be non-trivial.
My learning style: fiddle, RTDM, fiddle, attack the DM, fiddle, google, fiddle, fume! (DM = Detailed Manual for the PC cop)
Best regards to all!
Joe Daddy, call me anything but average!
Joe-Daddy.....you cheated!!!!! LOL, you looked at Brunton's PROFILE, and saw that he was indeed an Engineer.......HOWEVER....you don't get a prize because you didn't say what kind of an engineer. A train engineer, a Chemical Engineer, a Civil Engineer, a Mechanical Engineer, an Electrical Engineer...etc. etc.
I am one of those rare breeds that "reads manuals", so what I want to know is, how good is the product, and does it do a nice job for MRR'rs.
The only way we can get a good opinion ( like Consumers Reports ) is to have all the actual users of these products rate each one from PERSONAL use.
Then, we need to know the IQ of each user. Now before everyone gets their hair standing on end ( LOL) , there is no intent here to downgrade anyone. We all have our talents and lack of talents in various areas. If "I" for instance were a terrible computer user, and sucked at drafting , I would probably have a big problem with ANY of the CAD programs out there.
Also, if I hated reading manuals, but tried to "wing it" on my own by playing with the tools and tools bar, and was not very good at doing that either, I would get p....... real fast and say the product was lousy.
Zephyr
Texas Zepher wrote:Tex (I hope it is OK to call you that) Hehehe of course it is, even though being a Colorado native (5th generation) and being old enough to have been influenced by the CO-TX land wars - I sort of have an aversion to it. Immediately regretted it when I selected that handle for this forum. Especially since I had to spell Zephyr wrong cause someone else already had it spelled correctly. :-)
Tex (I hope it is OK to call you that) Hehehe of course it is, even though being a Colorado native (5th generation) and being old enough to have been influenced by the CO-TX land wars - I sort of have an aversion to it. Immediately regretted it when I selected that handle for this forum. Especially since I had to spell Zephyr wrong cause someone else already had it spelled correctly. :-)
I thought about responding to the abreviation of Colorado-Texas and decided being offensive to a genuine Colorado native would be unforgiveable! My wife is a Colorado native, while I was born a jayhawker and raised a sooner. And, my ex is from Tx so I'm more than fine with Zephyr!
Back to topic, we are talking about something we could call incremental learning where we learn more from each new thing we study. IT would seem to me that we might have the inclination to like the thing we finally learned to master. However, as it is with the three I used, each product also included huge amounts of new functionality not available to the previous software. Objectiely comparing the three together, one clearly has far more capability than the other three.
My use of RTS and Xtrkcad was in sectional track, where I think both packages have an edge over 3pi. My railroad skill evolution went from sectional to flex. Parkdale RR version 2 has 6 feet of sectional track in the over 300 feet on the roadbed. 3pi works superb with flex track which probably accounts for my overall satisfaction with the product.
One of the challenges I had with sectional track is the standard libraries for all the products, none of them seemed complete and editing or adding missing components was not trivial as I recall.
Interesting to rethink through the cadd thing. But I remind myself, Cadd is a tool, like my Kadee pliers, only good on the railroad for specific things and neither Cadd nor pliers is a substitue for my Mikado and Northern pulling long trains over my layout. My hobby is model railroading, not train simulation.
Joe
Brunton wrote: grayfox1119 wrote:OK guys, what about CADRail Version 8? Sandia is the Mfgr. has anyone used this product, if so, what are the Pros and Cons? So far, two users have indicated very positive responses to using this product, and no nay sayers thus far...the clock is ticking down.I use CadRail. It's has a rather no-frills interface, and is very technically oriented (not surprising since the designer is an engineer). Being an engineer myself, I've used many different professional CAD packages over the years, so I was very comfortable with the CadRail-style interface. Some people absolutely hate it.Being as it's a true CAD package (it can function as a true drafting tool, providing finished, dimensioned drawings of anything you care to detail out), it has a pretty steep learning curve. If you're technically oriented, it's the best product out there for model layout design, I believe. But it you're more artistically oriented, you'll probably tear you hair out learning it, and will likely never like the interface.
grayfox1119 wrote:OK guys, what about CADRail Version 8? Sandia is the Mfgr. has anyone used this product, if so, what are the Pros and Cons? So far, two users have indicated very positive responses to using this product, and no nay sayers thus far...the clock is ticking down.
So far, two users have indicated very positive responses to using this product, and no nay sayers thus far...the clock is ticking down.
Being as it's a true CAD package (it can function as a true drafting tool, providing finished, dimensioned drawings of anything you care to detail out), it has a pretty steep learning curve. If you're technically oriented, it's the best product out there for model layout design, I believe. But it you're more artistically oriented, you'll probably tear you hair out learning it, and will likely never like the interface.
Brunton,
Thanks for posting!
Informative, descriptive, no hard sell and qualified opinion. You 'must' be an engineer!
Several of my best friends over the years have been Structural Detailers.
Joe Daddy
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Dick,
Larry took off before he could answer you. We did not use the download, but waited for snail mail to deliver it. Larry thinks mechanically and found the manual helpful in deciphering the symbols. Sorry that he didn't answer you directly. If you are still wanting his input on Friday or Saturday when he is back, let me know.
joe-daddy wrote:Tex (I hope it is OK to call you that)
I relate to your post VERY much. I am sure that the reason that 3pi was easy to learn was from the banging my head against the wall on the other two packages! Easy is in the eye of the beholder. Simple to you can be impossibly complex for me!
I've applied that to the 3rd-Planit. So far no good. I am hoping after I re-read how to use the sectional track connections, go through the tutorial one more time, that the 4th try will be the charm and I'll "get it" so to speak. Sometime I think humans just quit a bit short of a break through.
However after reading this thread, I might just try the other free one now - just for comparison.
OK guys, what about CADRail Version 8? Sandia is the Mfgr. has anyone used this product, if so, what are the Pros and Cons?
joe-daddy wrote:perhaps because it is free. It is easy to see that 3PI has a good following because enough people see its value and are willing to pay money for their product. It would be conjecture on my part to say how XtrkCad or RTS would do if they were no longer free, but were $50 bucks or more per copy.Everyone is entitled to their own views. I try very hard not to hard sell anything including Jesus Christ. Joe
Everyone is entitled to their own views. I try very hard not to hard sell anything including Jesus Christ. Joe
I guess I am a little too enthusiastic, but it was such a revelation after a year of using 3rd PlanIt that the XtrkCAD was so much easier, that I get carried away. My experience was like TZ's. When I first tried XtraCAD it was shareware, and like 3rd PlanIt, you registered and got the key. It was actually during the couple days that I was learning it, that it became free.
But because it was free I didn't value it. I switched to 3rd PLanIt because of the pretty pictures and I stuck with it because I paid for it. However, there were things I just couldn't get done and quirks that I endured. I would not have switched back had it not been for helping someone who used XtrkCAD. When I did, everything came back to me and in a few minutes I was doing things I could not do with 3rd PlanIt.
I accept that your experience was different. I'm sorry that my enthusiasm offends you.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Tex (I hope it is OK to call you that)
SpaceMouse wrote:Joe-Daddy, I guess we have different opinions. I started with Right Track and designed my first layout with it. I then went to XtraCAD and worked with it a month or so and did a couple versions of my proposed basement layout. I then purchased 3rd PlanIt and worked with it for a year. I then switched back to XtrkCAD and have designed 3 more layouts with it. An any rate, I base my opinion on my experience with it, not just a quick sampling. I found the answers to your categories rather different from what I would have put. You ranked 3rd PlanIt with a high survivability, and XtrkCAD low. XtraCAD is open-source and supported by a users group. 3rd PlanIt is one guy and last year several people purchased the product and could not use it because the keys they were sent were wrong. The owner does not answer emails these guys simply could not use their programs. They had been trying for months, and it took intervention from people here to get their program going. The owner never did fix the problem for these users. Support for 3rd PlanIt is pretty much the users group and it is hit or miss if you can get answers.I am much faster doing design work with XtrkCAD.
Joe-Daddy,
I guess we have different opinions. I started with Right Track and designed my first layout w
ith it. I then went to XtraCAD and worked with it a month or so and did a couple versions of my proposed basement layout. I then purchased 3rd PlanIt and worked with it for a year. I then switched back to XtrkCAD and have designed 3 more layouts with it.
An any rate, I base my opinion on my experience with it, not just a quick sampling. I found the answers to your categories rather different from what I would have put. You ranked 3rd PlanIt with a high survivability, and XtrkCAD low. XtraCAD is open-source and supported by a users group.
3rd PlanIt is one guy and last year several people purchased the product and could not use it because the keys they were sent were wrong. The owner does not answer emails these guys simply could not use their programs. They had been trying for months, and it took intervention from people here to get their program going. The owner never did fix the problem for these users. Support for 3rd PlanIt is pretty much the users group and it is hit or miss if you can get answers.
I am much faster doing design work with XtrkCAD.
Space Mouse,
Thanks for responding to my post.
Quick sampling? Excuse me but I spent over a month trying to learn XtrkCad and was unable to master it. XtrkCad exists today ONLY because it was abandoned by the original designer, for reasons I can only surmise. I rated Right Track highest in survivability because it has Atlas behind it, 3PI because it is a continuing cash generating affair with a superior product. That the developer will not answer emails is irrelevant. Version 8 was just released with an inside cover to MRR Track Planning 2007, more exposure than ANY other Cad program has gotten in the past 2 or three years.
Everyone is entitled to their own views. I try very hard not to hard sell anything including Jesus Christ.
But like attempt to do in the Case for Christ, I try to help people be aware of issues and give them information so their decision will be their own.
We were in the same position you were, a couple of years ago. We decided to go with 3rd Planit. The library of track has been a great help to designing the layout. The automatic alignment tool is a great feature, as is the automatic easement tool that inserts a color coded easment without having to figure out any math.
The copy parallel tool is a great tool for laying track side by side.
Additionally, the ability to Run a simulated train on the design is also a nice feature that shows you any trouble before you put real track down.
We added the dxf export feature for $10 - this gave us the ability to export the design to a program that allows us to use a CNC Router to machine the sub-roadbed which included an engraved centerline that provided for a quick and easy way to lay our cork and then the track.
We also created a hidden staging yard that had the complete track layout (engraved). This worked perfectly.
Of course not everyone has access to a CNC Router to take advantage of this feature, but I highly recommend 3rd Planit. I think there is either a new release out, or will be, very shortly.
SpaceMouse wrote:GF, Try XtraCAD first. It's free and the tutorial is top-notch.
GF,
Try XtraCAD first. It's free and the tutorial is top-notch.
Everyone has their opinions, and you are getting the hard sell. I wonder if he means Xtrkcad instead of XtraCad which, according to the web site is for layout of duct work.
I evaluated three cad products and you can read my review on my blog located at http://wwwjoe-daddy.blogspot.com/
Look for the link train cadd assessment. I spent much more time than 4 hours trying to learn Xtrkcad and gave up. I personally found the tutorial to be of no value.
My milage will vary, but then, I am a leadfoot.
How long does it take you to draw a simple ladder yard with pencil and paper? Now erase it and change it 5 degrees. Now change it to a compound ladder. Now move the throat around the turn and try it again.
Each time you draw the yard in XtraCAD it takes 20-30 seconds. That's why it worth it to run the 4 hour tutorial. You just saved the time. It's a lot harder with 3rd PlanIt. I don't know about CadRail.
grayfox1119 wrote: Larry and Chip.....what is your experience with running and using CAD of any kind before you bought/installed the programs that you like and are now using? The reason that I ask is that I have never run a CAD program. I don't mind learning, but I don't want to spend the next 6 months trying to understand the manual written for CAD engineers. I don't mind spending $100 for a GOOD program "if" it has a darn good manual, written for a 1st time user of CAD, with good illustrations or/and "how to's". Opinions guys?
Opinions guys?
I had not run any CAD programs, but I have run drawing programs like CorelDraw, that are object/vector oriented. Still, they weren't much help. I relied soley on the turorials.
I spent an extra $10 and purchased the 3rd PlanIt manual. Like the rest of the program, it was hard figuring out the information. The best recourse was the Yahoo user's froup. But often as not, the answer was read the manual.
XtraCAD also has a user's group. It also has the ability to run trains like the poster who bought 3rd Planet mentioned. the thing it lacks is 3d capabilities.
I have been using CadRail version 8 ever since it came out and I love it. I just finished laying track for my layout that I designed with CadRail and it came out just like I hoped it would. I took all of my measurments from the computer and transfered them to the layout table and was shocked at how accurate it turned out to be. CadRail has a ton of features also. One of them is that it can use dxf format drawings from AutoCad and other graphic programs. Dont be fooled though, CadRail has a bit of a learning curve, to say the least, but I think it is by far the best program on the market out of the ones you have mentioned.
Hope this helps
Fred
Chip.....I am not concerned about the PC being able to run the program itself per se, it's the fact that Vista has really tightened the security "blanket" well beyond 98 of course, and certainly better than Xp with it's own security issues. So trying to load and run some of these programs "may" be a problem, even running them as Administrator.
Larry and Chip.....what is your experience with running and using CAD of any kind before you bought/installed the programs that you like and are now using? The reason that I ask is that I have never run a CAD program. I don't mind learning, but I don't want to spend the next 6 months trying to understand the manual written for CAD engineers. I don't mind spending $100 for a GOOD program "if" it has a darn good manual, written for a 1st time user of CAD, with good illustrations or/and "how to's".