"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
SunsetLimited wrote:Antonio, are you a member of Suncoast also?
Yes. Have we met?
I rarely make the meeting nights because of my job. I fell behind in my dues but have been catching up and coming again. When I can, I prefer to go on Tuesday and Sunday afternoons.
Carl recently edited and uploaded a Leslie RS5T horn sound on his Lok Sound equipped Athearn SCL SD45T-2. He also added a much more realistic sounding "Air Pop off" which has a longer tail. The sounds are abolutely incredible! QSI and Soundtraxx have some very serious competition. I hope that if the club leadership decides to create a new online video, that this unit be included.
Again it amazes me that there may be clubs out there where sound equipped units are not welcome.
At present, Atlas, Walthers/Proto and BLI all buy their sound systems from QSI. BLI is now coming out with their own version. Sounds like instead of having a great number of operator-controlled sounds, it will basically just have the horn/whistle and bell, which probably will work on a reversing polarity basis like the QSI ones do??
I don't see why it's so hard to grasp the idea of a DC engine with a sound system?? Sound was around long before DCC after all. PFM had a steam sound system in the seventies, there have been diesel DC sound systems since at least the eighties. All BLI is doing is offering engines with their own sound system in engines that come from the factory set to run on DC, but with an eight-pin plug to allow "plug and play" installation of YOUR CHOICE of a DCC decoder. Can't get much simpler, I have seen nothing talking about "determining the correct wattages" or whatever??
BRAKIE wrote: That could possibly be in the future but,by then there will be another control system to spend our money on. It only makes sense by the way sound keeps evolving.The Atlas QE at the club will do the things Atlas says for those engines with QSI technology.Now the other HO club I am a member of barred sound by majority of the vote and we don't have a QE and DCC was tabled as a motion after the 8th try by majority vote..I think that was wrong headed to bar sound though...
That could possibly be in the future but,by then there will be another control system to spend our money on. It only makes sense by the way sound keeps evolving.
The Atlas QE at the club will do the things Atlas says for those engines with QSI technology.
Now the other HO club I am a member of barred sound by majority of the vote and we don't have a QE and DCC was tabled as a motion after the 8th try by majority vote..
I think that was wrong headed to bar sound though...
Brakie
Wow!
I have to agree with Antonio about the surprise of sound being barred on that club. Do they allow old models with loud motor or gear noise?? Are plastic wheels manditory on freight cars to cut down on noise?? I would guess a steam model with smoke would be banned and trashed.
Did they bar Kadee couplers and mandate the NMRA standard Hook Horn type?? I know of several clubs that do not want anything new.
Metal wheels also make noise. I can't image sound being that intrusive that it is banned. What is next?? Bright headlights and prototype looking windshields????
Probably one of those clubs that have strick rules on using wooden whistles and wearing engineer caps.
We all have our limits and it sounds like they reached theirs as a club.
CAZEPHYR
Wow Brakie!
Your club voted to bar sound? Yipes! For me that is surprising to know of this. Most of the HO modelers that I've spoken with have the "once you hear sound, you just want to have it" attitude.
At the club I'm at membership has increased considerably over the past year. DCC and sound have been a very welcome addition to the club's atmosphere. Some of the very same guys that were anti-dcc/sound are now "gung-ho" about this technology. Sound has certainly added a very enjoyable flavor and mood.
My locomotives don't have sound yet (tight budget), but when I run them at the club I find it enjoyable that when my train is sitting at a station or siding, another train passes it and the engineer salutes me with a horn or whistle.......just like the prototype trains do.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE wrote: Safety Valve,There is NO way I will buy this new system and its locomotives.I also prefer my Atlas engines to be duel mode or at least DCC ready.However..Before I would buy another DCC system just for sound like I did before I would use the Atlas QE instead or a cheaper DCC system.Yeah,I went full throttle because of sound..We agree something is fishy about a SOUND equipped DC loco since they have their version of Atlas's QE as does Walthers.IMHO it sounds like BLI is cutting their throats in sales of their DCC/Sound equipped engines and their QE..Again,this new system doesn't make sense IMHO. PS..Heres why I think the Atlas QE is superior.Again straight from Atlas.================================================The Quantum Engineer will only operate sound locomotives that include the latest QSI technology. This technology is included in all Atlas, Life-Like/Proto 2000 and Hobbycraft Canada sound-equipped locomotives. The more recent locomotive releases from Broadway Limited Imports (BLI) can also be operated; this includes the PRR K-4, EMD E-series passenger units, EMD SD40-2, C&O T-1, EMD switchers, etc. BLI locomotive releases previous to these, as well as the Lionel Challenger and Turbine will not operate with the Quantum Engineer.===============================================================That covers just about every RTR sound equipped locomotives except Athearn.
Safety Valve,There is NO way I will buy this new system and its locomotives.I also prefer my Atlas engines to be duel mode or at least DCC ready.However..Before I would buy another DCC system just for sound like I did before I would use the Atlas QE instead or a cheaper DCC system.Yeah,I went full throttle because of sound..
We agree something is fishy about a SOUND equipped DC loco since they have their version of Atlas's QE as does Walthers.IMHO it sounds like BLI is cutting their throats in sales of their DCC/Sound equipped engines and their QE..
Again,this new system doesn't make sense IMHO.
PS..Heres why I think the Atlas QE is superior.Again straight from Atlas.
================================================
The Quantum Engineer will only operate sound locomotives that include the latest QSI technology. This technology is included in all Atlas, Life-Like/Proto 2000 and Hobbycraft Canada sound-equipped locomotives. The more recent locomotive releases from Broadway Limited Imports (BLI) can also be operated; this includes the PRR K-4, EMD E-series passenger units, EMD SD40-2, C&O T-1, EMD switchers, etc. BLI locomotive releases previous to these, as well as the Lionel Challenger and Turbine will not operate with the Quantum Engineer.
===============================================================
That covers just about every RTR sound equipped locomotives except Athearn.
It does not cover the new RTR's from Roundhouse like the 4-4-0 and I am hearing about 2-6-0's and who knows what else (BOXCABS!? I wish.) coming out of Roundhouse.
I find it mildly interesting that Atlas proclaims that they cover new QSI engines that have the ability to do these wonderful things. However, Im seeing different sound systems coming out competing with QSI. Where does that leave Atlas? Just one sound control system in a sea that is breeding new sound control systems several times a year.
I entertain myself with the idea that the engines mentioned by Atlas in the quote provided above will all eventually be not availible and maybe require a limited run TBD sometime in a future that is uncertain. Except maybe for the switchers, we all need switchers.
The Broadway Limited's website introduces the Blue Line series and stresses that we have a choice to install a DCC decoder into the engine. Also further stresses that they refuse to pay very high licensing fees. Who is getting these fees? QSI? and how much is it?
What happens when everyone decided to generate thier own sound, quits paying QSI the fees or whoever is providing the technology? We might as well go back to buying analog engines and adding our own decoder, sound units to them.
What happens if QSI engine availibility drops off so that no one runs QSI anymore forcing Atlas to consider stopping sales of the QE?
Me thinks that there has to be a clear distinction between DC engines and DCC engines. It is nice that Broadway is thinking of thier DC customers and that they encourage us to purchase the accessories needed to run this sound. Eventually the person will want to go into DCC.
What then is the situation when that person who goes into DCC fully and completely only to find that no one sells Dual mode engines RTR from the factory anymore? Except a handful that comes with extra stuff already packed in the box.
Athearn is an honored brand of engines, one that provided all wheel drive and flywheel equippted engines in a time of really bad trainset engines or deliberately designed "One Week" engines that needs to be replaced with another. I just dont see them as a leader with the Sound/DCC equippted engines and regard them the same as Roundhouse under the control of Horizion Hobbies who must now compete with BLI and others who are manuvering to get extra revenue from the DC user.
What happens when DC becomes irrevelant in... oh.. 15 years or less?
Brakie, It is not my intention to turn this into a barroom brawl. I am attempting to point out how I am buying new RTR engines in HO scale across several manufactors who have all different sound systems in thier Dual Mode engines. It was not until this morning when I realized that I am buying control systems to run each of the different sounds and they are being added to the Workbench DC power pack side by side on the same two wires to the track. Im up to 3 systems now and where does it end?? The value total money spent on these sound control unit approaches that of a nice Zephyr.
I dont have a problem with installing a decoder and/or sound into a ANALOG engine like my Atlas Classic Series B&O RS-1's if only they make such a set up "Plug in" or even a entire RTR Dual Mode with sound of these engines.
I am just one customer who strongly prefers RTR engines that are dual mode at the factory. Because not everyone has DCC. The Modular Club here in Arkansas has not embraced DCC while another did embrace it.
But to buy a sound equippted engine that works only on DC? Humm... I think it will be nice but I think something is fishy and I cannot put a finger on why I have a problem with that. Perhaps it's the need to add a decoder that will cost who knows how much and require research time. Wading into a sea of Decoder serial part numbers, wattages, amps, capabilities etc etc etc makes my head hurt.
I hope this clarifies some of my previously poorly written semi-rant.
The Atlas Quantum Engineer is the exact same Quantum Engineer sold by Walthers/P2K and BLI. It will control any of the QSI decoders regardless of whose loco it is installed in. On the older QSI decoders that BLI sold the Sidekick for, it will do what the Sidekick did, but not all the functions of the QE will work with the older QSI decoders.
It is NOT a DCC controller, it actually implements a protocol of DC polarity reversals and so forth that activate functions. ESU has their own system for the Loksound decoders since QSI has patented their system. Thus the DCMaster unit. That hasn't stopped QSI from suing ESU however.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Safety Valve,I think that thundering herd isn't as big as many think.
Why?
Why would they(the manufacturers) design and sell sound control devices for DC users like the Quantum Engineer?
All I am saying something isn't sitting right.
Lets not turn this into another useless DCC vs DC free for all.Please.
Awright, I accept the idea that sound has it's own decoder (Lights too?) but I stand firm and say that decoders must be installed at the factory to drive the locomotive's motor and be in sync with the sound and lights.
DC is just that. We do have the Sidekick from BLI and the Command Center for the PCM's Loksound. The LokSound unit is required (An extra 40+ dollars) to run the Reading T1's whistle and what not off DC power. The Atlas's center can run many functions and still allow someone to use DC power.
I mean, COME ON! Who are we kidding here? Those command centers that allow a DC users to use DCC functions are basicially DCC control systems that feed off DC for power. If I have to buy Atlas, MRC (Remote control no less for thier 4-4-0 [That is one item I did NOT want since I already have DCC.] and only drives up the price and will require a replacement battery} plus..... Lok sound DCC control, BLI's Sidekick and other engines with propiertary (Spelling?) control boxes to run THIER DCC stuff.... by the time I get all of that boxes for the entire fleet I risk spending more money than a Digitrax Zephyr and almost to the level of the DCC Super Chief PLUS all those annoying DECODERS that now must be installed, researched and fitted and hopefully work the first time....
NO NO and NO. BULL CRAPH. Build Dual Mode engines that accept input from just ONE or TWO control boxes like the Atlas Command DCC Sound Center from all of the manufactors and have DECODERS for everything... motor, sound lights etc READY to go out of the box.
You know what? Let the engine makers build KITS. Throw in the engine, parts, Tender, Parts, wheels, wires and couplers. Then toss in the speakers, decoder and mounting doodads and print a exploded diagram and have us assemble the goddamn things at home instead of contracting CHINA or some place to do it.
Call them Snap-Tite DCC (In humorus honor of those no-glue plastic kits). The next generation Kits for DCC users and slash the prices on them so that retail RTR engines suffer once the Hobbyist gains the learning curve, skills and tools to build engines at home for half again the cost of the new RTR engines.
Oh wait... Browser (Spelling??) has done this for DECADES on DC engines providing super detailing kits for those that wish a more detailed product.
When I saw the Remote Control that came with the Roundhouse 4-4-0, I said to myself.. what the *&^% is this toy doing on a HO scale engine? It makes a 120 dollar engine act like a 200 dollar one at retail. The remote probably costed 10 bucks to build. While I applaud the foresight for those who dont have DCC, you will find that you need a DCC system to program the engine's selection of sounds to your taste.
I would not be so upset if Roundhouse seperated the Remote Control and made it seperate. I can see myself with 10 round house engines and juggling remotes for each and every one of them or selling 9 SPARE REMOTES on EBAY to other users who are also dumping them as well. In fact I would prefer it because one remote will drive all of the engines just as well. Since I got a Super Chief I can take the attitude and sniff at these plastic items that require a battery replacement and adds cost on top of the retail for the engine. Because of this, I am reluctant to purchase future Roundhouse engines. And I actually like those little critters.
I want to see the HO engine makers settle down, build good dual mode engines, keep them on the market, avoid the need for extra doo dads that weight our Obselete DC systems down.
Let's face it folks, DCC is marching. The approaching thunder heralds a future where kiddie trainsets will be equippted with the Digitrax Zephyer? I mean come on.
Atlas did create their Command Station to run QSI engines off DC power with a good amount of assorted functions without any problems. Other manufactors should stop stressing thier own control systems, accept Atlas's leadership and build Dual mode engines that will accept input from this one system instead of shoving thier own propiertary systems down the poor customer's throat. I already have several different control systems hanging off my Tech 4 throttle which sits on the work bench. That is just silly. Sooner or later I will reach the limits of the small DC throttle and have to buy a second throttle to run future DC engines.
In fact, why am I fooling with this DC anyway? Toss the whole mess into the trash can, simplify and use the Chief for everything DCC and the home computer with Decoder Pro.
That is my problem and I will deal with that in short order.
Its DC only..We have one at the modular club and it works quite well..
BLI has a system similar to the Atlas system..
See:
The Atlas
http://www.firsthobby.com/store1/Product.asp?ProductID=ATL325&SN=2007012012052028
Heres the BLI
http://www.firsthobby.com/store1/Product.asp?ProductID=BLI1003&SN=2007012012052028
See what I am saying?
This new system doesn't make sense IMHO.
BRAKIE wrote: Food for thought..IMHO the BETTER choice for DC sound would be to use the Atlas Quantum Engineer since it superior and will operate sound locomotives that include the latest QSI technology this includes Atlas,P2K and BLI.Compare the 2 systems and you will see and straight from Atlas:============================================Now, in addition to the horn and bell sounds, users will be able to access different engine settings and effects such as number lights, flanges, dynamic brakes, coupler sounds, blower/fans, reverse lights and much, much more.In addition to these sound and lighting features, DC users are also able to access other advanced features such as programming options, locomotive braking, locomotive shut-down and start-up procedures, verbal scale speed readout and more!===========================================Again and IMHO why bother with BLI when Atlas has the superior system that operates regular Sound equipped locos from different manufacturers which will give you a wider selection of locomotives?These are MY thoughts yours may vary.
Food for thought..
IMHO the BETTER choice for DC sound would be to use the Atlas Quantum Engineer since it superior and will operate sound locomotives that include the latest QSI technology this includes Atlas,P2K and BLI.Compare the 2 systems and you will see and straight from Atlas:============================================Now, in addition to the horn and bell sounds, users will be able to access different engine settings and effects such as number lights, flanges, dynamic brakes, coupler sounds, blower/fans, reverse lights and much, much more.In addition to these sound and lighting features, DC users are also able to access other advanced features such as programming options, locomotive braking, locomotive shut-down and start-up procedures, verbal scale speed readout and more!===========================================Again and IMHO why bother with BLI when Atlas has the superior system that operates regular Sound equipped locos from different manufacturers which will give you a wider selection of locomotives?These are MY thoughts yours may vary.
Are you using the Atlas DC sytem? I have not heard it or operated the Atlas system. Is this system for DC only or will it work with DCC also??
BLI probaly is bringing out their own system to cut the bottom line cost to the end user, which might be their way of the future. The Blue line ad does not state they will drop the other lines, but it might mean that since the AC6000 had QSI installed on the first run.
Thanks
Safety Valve wrote: So, I gotta open the engine up and add a decoder? I dont think so. It's too bad too because LokSound and QSI has been a pretty good run.
So, I gotta open the engine up and add a decoder? I dont think so. It's too bad too because LokSound and QSI has been a pretty good run.
It is not hard to remove the plug and insert the decoder into the eight pin connection. I have wondered about controlling the horn or bell after the DCC conversion.
We will have to have more details, but it seems like this is a way to offer a much less expensive model to us and to offer it to DC users without the extra cost of the DCC option.
I will probably pass on the first group since they are the first and at this time, who knows how good they will actually be.
I have talked to several dealers recently that are tired of the BLI Blow out sales that leaves them with stock on the shelves that will not sell.
One very large dealer has said, they will not stock future BLI products, only get them for very good customers that request them.
CMSTPP wrote: Hmmm. Now that's interesting. I have not heard of a DC sound equiped locomotive. But there seems to be a lot of advantages to this. First the price. For 180 dollars you could have sound and DCC. Instead of spending 270 dollars on one sound unit. But I don't know how good the sound is. I like QSI, but this might be new and improved. I might have to try and find a recording of the sound.Happy railroadingJames
Hmmm. Now that's interesting. I have not heard of a DC sound equiped locomotive. But there seems to be a lot of advantages to this. First the price. For 180 dollars you could have sound and DCC. Instead of spending 270 dollars on one sound unit. But I don't know how good the sound is. I like QSI, but this might be new and improved. I might have to try and find a recording of the sound.
Happy railroading
James
You are right about the price and that is not the discounted but list. I would hope dealers would continue to discount these the same amount as the previous ones, which might mean a sound locomotive in the $140 to $150 range
Something that I just remembered.
A while back a friend of mine pointed that in DCC mode, BLI units can perform some functions that you normally don't get in DC mode. I wonder if this will be the same for the Blue Line series?
It's the "extras" that convinced me that DCC was the way to go to enjoy the realistic special FX, especially since you can control them at will...........just like on the prototypes.
I also hope that the detailing on the SD40-2 will be improved.
Leon Silverman wrote: One caveat that the ad mentions (in very fine gray print) is that dual mode operation is NOT recommended once a decoder is installed. This might be a an issue for someone who operates on a DCC layout at a club but has a DC layout he operates in his own home.
One caveat that the ad mentions (in very fine gray print) is that dual mode operation is NOT recommended once a decoder is installed. This might be a an issue for someone who operates on a DCC layout at a club but has a DC layout he operates in his own home.
This might be due to the fact not all DCC decoders have the DC option and when the NMRA standard 8-pin socket for plug 'n' play plug is installed, the new unit is jumpered for DC operation. When the DCC decoder is installed, the new unit is jumpered for DCC operation.
If this is the way they wire the jumper plug, this would eliminate some more circuitry in the new sound decoder.
I am hoping for an announcement from BLI or MR to give us more information in the next month or so.
AntonioFP45 wrote: This seems to be good news but I thought from what I've read and heard in the past that BLI was going with Lok Sound Can anyone confirm or deny this? I'm assuming ( and hoping ) that the new chip that allows uploaded sound will be available on these new "Blue Line" units. From what I've read before the "Upload" feature enables modelers with programmers to upload horn and bell sounds as well. This is cool since horns varied from railroad to railroad. Burlington Northern, generally, favored Leslie 3 chimers. CSX prefers Nathan 5 chimers. Bells varied also. It's interesting that BLI is bring forth a new SD40-2. Some of you may remember the controversy with the SD40-2 that hit the market back in 2004. There were complaints that the sound was inaccurate (EMD 567 engine instead of the EMD turbocharged 645). So looks like BLI wants to make a very good start for 07.Should be neat!
This seems to be good news but I thought from what I've read and heard in the past that BLI was going with Lok Sound Can anyone confirm or deny this?
It's interesting that BLI is bring forth a new SD40-2. Some of you may remember the controversy with the SD40-2 that hit the market back in 2004. There were complaints that the sound was inaccurate (EMD 567 engine instead of the EMD turbocharged 645). So looks like BLI wants to make a very good start for 07.
Should be neat!
Antonio
Most of us will agree with you about the sound that was used for the BLI/QSI being very poor and inaccurate for the SD40-2, but BLI must have had the approval on the QSI application. I have noticed that several of the applications have not been so good with the steam also, but again some have been right on.
The article seems to indicate to me they are trying to bring down costs and that will allow more modelers to purchase sound without going to DCC. At the same time, DCC users will also be able to use the new system by installing their own DCC drive chip. This is concept is good since we can all pick and purchase our favorite DCC brand, but anytime they redesign or sell to a new lower end market so to speak, some compromises will be included. They might be eliminating the extra sound vendor, but what is their engineering experience level to do this project from scratch?? We will have to wait and verify how it works.
After reading their announcement / advertisement again, it could be they might be using the Loksound for this new deal without the long term contract or they are going it alone to eliminate the high cost of purchasing the sound from someone else.
Time will tell. I hope they upgraded the SD40-2 shell also since it did not receive great reviews from most of us.
CAZEPHYR wrote: KlickyMobster wrote:To second on G Paine, how do these work with DCC. Do I just plug in a regular decoder when I'm ready to install DCC? Or do I need a sound decoder? This sounds like a nice system for someone in between DC and DCC like I am. According to the pictures on the web site, you remove the standard plug and plug in the decoder and start using DCC.
KlickyMobster wrote:To second on G Paine, how do these work with DCC. Do I just plug in a regular decoder when I'm ready to install DCC? Or do I need a sound decoder? This sounds like a nice system for someone in between DC and DCC like I am.
According to the pictures on the web site, you remove the standard plug and plug in the decoder and start using DCC.
In the past you've had two ways to install DCC and sound - one is to install a decoder that does both sound and has control functions, the other is to "piggyback", use a 'regular' (non-sound) decoder to control the engines movements, lights, etc. and a sound-only decoder to control just the sounds. Apparently BLI's new system is a sound unit that works like a "sound only" decoder, but which works in DC or (after you add your own 'regular' decoder) in DCC.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum