Chip,
You may be asking for more than you really need. Sound from the decoder equipped locomotives already moves with the locomotive. Your problem there is the tiny speaker's low frequency rolloff, no bass.
Bass is omnidirectional, that's why a single subwoofer works for room filling 5.1 or 7.1 sound system. By using a pair of identical decoders, one in the loco and a stationary one driving the subwoofer of a 5.1 system, the treble and midrange will follow the loco, and the bass from the stationary sub will appear to follow the loco.
If there's a problem, you'll find it in a "gap" between the lowest frequencies the tiny train mounted speaker can produce, and the highest frequencies the subwoofer can produce. Or in a stationary decoder that has had the low end frequencies removed from the onboard sound samples to save storage space or decoder amplifier headroom. In short, issues at "crossover" frequencies.
We have one of these:
http://www.thetechzone.com/?m=show&id=35
...driven by a pair of MRC Synchro units, a CD/DVD player, and a large file system of CD quality samples in .wav format on the PC, triggered by a keyboard mapping system.
The concept testing worked very well, but final installation awaits the layout benchwork expansion, from 4x10 to 5x 14'. That should happen over the next 30 days. The next phase then will be addition of matching decoders for our sound equipped locos feeding through the sub. I'll let you know how well it works, and will probably post spectrum analyzer snaps showing frequency distribution as well.
Next in line after that will be to re-mix the background sounds in DVD-A 5.1 format. This will allow sounds like the waterfall, birds, the wind, sawmills, etc., to be placed in the 3D soundspace, instead of the 2D stereo soundspace we are working with now. The least expensive 5.1 encoder software I've found to date is this:
http://www.minnetonkaaudio.com/products/products.html
...scroll down and click on Diskwelder Bronze, $100. It allows you to encode 6 audio streams in .wav format to DVD-A format files, which then can be either burned to CD or triggered from the PC keyboard.
You'd probably want to download something like Audacity or other DAW software to mix and your effects files, along with some plugin effects to manage 5.1 mastering in the PC environment. There are several free plugins of this sort available at KVR audio, these also work with Calkwalk sequencer software as well:
http://www.kvraudio.com/get.php?mode=results&st=adv&soft=e&type%5B%5D=64&f=0&fe=0&linux=1&win=1&free=1&sf=0&receptor=&de=0&sort=1&rpp=15
There you have it, all you asked for:
1. Moving locomotive effects
2. Enhanced low end for locomotives
3. Stationary sound effects, samples or loops, placed in a 3D soundspace at the operator's discretion
4. No programming necessary, other than MUing the stationary decoder with the appropriate mobile one
5. All available right now, today, at COTS prices
Enjoy!
:-)
SteamFreak wrote:Not to mention that even if it were possible to create a subwoofer in a loco or tender, the problems with "cabinet" vibration would be unbearable.
Nothing like s good sub-woofer to get your ballast settled in where it belongs. Especially if you have your 4-4-0 equipped with hydros and get it low to the ground, essay.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Texas Zepher wrote: grayfox1119 wrote:The next step in sound is to put the "wave" design into the tenders or locomotives, you know, like the Bose Wave radio?You say that like it is something easy to do. This is what I've been talking about on the other threads about sound. A baffled-chambered-ported design (that is NOT air-tight) that is tuned to the frequency of the exhaust sound of that particular locomotive. The internal path of the air would have to be tuned to get the low freqency sound "wave" coming out the port to be exactly in-sync with the originating "wave" from the speaker cone. Note that this would require a different speaker for each type of locomotive. The "perfect" speaker for an EMD 1st generation would not be the same as one for a GE whale.I stumbled across really good one for a 3/4" speaker tuned for the EMD 1st generation (as re-created by Soundtraxx), but it is still too large to fit even into dummy B unit. When I use that exact length in a double-back scenario it doesn't work. The "wave" won't go around the corners without changing their pattern too much and ruining the effect.
grayfox1119 wrote:The next step in sound is to put the "wave" design into the tenders or locomotives, you know, like the Bose Wave radio?You say that like it is something easy to do. This is what I've been talking about on the other threads about sound. A baffled-chambered-ported design (that is NOT air-tight) that is tuned to the frequency of the exhaust sound of that particular locomotive. The internal path of the air would have to be tuned to get the low freqency sound "wave" coming out the port to be exactly in-sync with the originating "wave" from the speaker cone. Note that this would require a different speaker for each type of locomotive. The "perfect" speaker for an EMD 1st generation would not be the same as one for a GE whale.
grayfox1119 wrote:The next step in sound is to put the "wave" design into the tenders or locomotives, you know, like the Bose Wave radio?
I stumbled across really good one for a 3/4" speaker tuned for the EMD 1st generation (as re-created by Soundtraxx), but it is still too large to fit even into dummy B unit. When I use that exact length in a double-back scenario it doesn't work. The "wave" won't go around the corners without changing their pattern too much and ruining the effect.
Not to mention that even if it were possible to create a subwoofer in a loco or tender, the problems with "cabinet" vibration would be unbearable.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
Don Gibson wrote: D.G.:Your 'recommended' 5.1 system does not "have" 500 watts. It's a package of cheap computer speakers. I suggest you re-read.
D.G.:
Your 'recommended' 5.1 system does not "have" 500 watts. It's a package of cheap computer speakers. I suggest you re-read.
I respectfully suggest you read:
http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/promedia-ultra-5-1.aspx
http://www.klipsch.com/media/products/owners-manuals/ULTRA51MANUAL_ENGLISH.pdf
I have heard these. Two people here at work bought them and love them. They are loud, clean, with good solid quick punch. They are nothing short of an excellent buy. And yes it's 500 Watts Total. Not 500WPC which is impossible off any household outlet.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
http://www.shentech.com/promediaultra51dh.html
A 500 watt amplifier will cost $500, PLUS $269, PLUS the 'black box' ($600 ?).
On the other hand, it should sound as good as Atlas' "Symphony' system which has a sythesized sound source.
Good 5.1 self powered surround speakers are easy to find on the cheap. Here are some EXCELLENT ones for $269. This system has 500 watts. Enough to shake your rails as your train comes down the line.
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?btnG=Search+Froogle&q=promedia+ultra+5.1+Klipsch
You can go <$100 if you want.
If you have an old computer, (500MHz will do, even a Pentium 100MHz) then surround sound can be had for $60. It would work well providing that the room is fairly rectangular/square.
I wonder if we have any programmers in here besides me? It would be a neat group project I could throw my coding skills into.
Jim is right. It was called 'SURROUNDTRAXX.
It was a 'black box' (an Industry term for a featureless electronics package) that read 'back emf' to send sound to multiple fixed locations as the train moved.
MTH's threat of patent infringement re: use of back EMF muddied the waters, BUT I suspect COST of multi-channel analog sound systems (over and above the 'black box') may have been the real reason it became stillborn.
Cheap Sub-Woofers are around $200 ('good' ones start @ $500), and current 'Theater- Surround' 4 OR 5 Systems start @ $600. 2 MRC Sound effect' speakers and a sound-effects box sells for $85. Think of what 4 Computer speakers and a small sub-woofer could do?
Electronics can be minaturized but sound waves cannot. They are ruled by the laws of physics. A tiny Transistor Radio cannot reproduce a Symphony Orchestra, nor a steam locomotive by a 1" speaker.
A Stereo amplifier can move their sound image L to R. with 2 speakers using it's 'Balance' control. An EMF fed electronic 'balance conrol' with 2 speakers will give us moving image - As soon as someone figures out how to make money with it.
This has been done by Soundtraxx, but I do not think it was ever released. It was called 'SoundAround', or something like that. They had it on display at shows several years ago, but the estimated price was steep(about $600). Each DCC engine needed a Digitrax 'transponder', and the layout had to be blocked into 'sound areas'. The unit would poll the engines and get thier location on the layout/speed/etc. The sound would then be sent to the speaker in that zone. IIRC, there was a limit of about 10 engines running at one time. The system would 'pass' the sound from speaker to speaker so that it followed the train. This was to be marketed to N scale as getting a sound system in an engine was very hard(and still is). I see nothing on their web site now, and I suspect the idea was dropped.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Good thread.
Some of this discussion is over my head, but I think I'm on the same page with some of you. I would love to see sound get to the point where, if for example, you as the engineer actuate your locomotive's horn and you can instantly hear the reverb or "echo" effect bouncing off of buildings or mountains. Of course that's not what would really happen, but it's that effect that many of us would like to have.
If I read this right, this effect may be technologically possible in the near future by combining onboard locomotive sound with middle and low frequency response speakers located at strategic points on a layout. I think that this is what Soundtraxx is planning with their Surroundtraxx but I hope we won't have to wait 5 years for this! My hair is starting to turn gray .
As a teen, I always enjoyed listening to this effect on the prototype as I watched approaching SCL and Amtrak trains in my town. For me now, it's pleasant and memorable, especially with Amtrak's SL4T horns on their SDP40fs. Seaboard Coast Line's U36Bs had incredibly loud 4 cycle prime movers that could be heard 2 or 3 miles away in a city. These brutes at full throttle sounded like they could pull down a big building!
This is why I became so excited back a few years back when BLI and hit the scene and sound for HO became so much more popular.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Texas Zepher wrote: Ok, how about motion detectors to track the listener. The volume of the various sounds coming from each surround sound speaker could be changed so a certain scene's sounds get closer as the listener does. This could also be used to control some of the reflective sound.Gets really hard with multiple listeners.
Ok, how about motion detectors to track the listener. The volume of the various sounds coming from each surround sound speaker could be changed so a certain scene's sounds get closer as the listener does. This could also be used to control some of the reflective sound.
Gets really hard with multiple listeners.
And when my brother comes over I could track him and have the system simulate playing inside his head.
They're coming to take me away ha-ha
They're coming to take me away ho-ho...
very quietly.
jecorbett wrote:I'm not sure I want sound that is greater than what is produced now. I like the fact the sound is scaled down relative to the size of the trains. I don't think I would want something blaring anywhere near prototypical volumes. I do model in HO so I'm not sure what you guys in N-scale have in the way of sound so maybe upgrading sound is an issue to be addressed. I think the sound I get from my factory equipped BLI locos is outstanding, both steam and diesel.
I would think that the system would have a volume control.
Joking aside, there's no reason to think that each sound effect you set into motion could be independently controlled.
You'd only need one receiver. We know the engine will be on the track so we need only locate the receiver in the center of the layout very high or very low. That will give us triangulation.
Computers are very fast, but even so, the computer can anticipate where the engine will be based upon location and speed of the engine.
Transmitters are cheap and can be programed when the decoder is programed--only 1 CV.
I think it is doable.
I think that's going to work much better for ambient sounds than moving sounds. Setting up the audio wavefront with quad speakers will be much less localized than you would want it to be. (Stereo alone would only give you one dimension of position. You could "position" the sound left-to-right, but not front-to-back.)
Actually "locating" the moving locomotive on your layout is a difficult challenge. You're going to need some sort of radio-frequency transmitter with a coded signal in each engine, and at least 3 receivers, plus some computing power. Like today's sound decoders, you would need one transmitter for each engine.
Technology marches on, of course, but with today's equipment I'd suspect you'll get the best results with local speakers, both for a few ambient sounds and for engines, even given all their limitations.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Gwedd wrote: Regardless, the problem is with replicating the doppler effect of the sound waves. Volume control is easy, as i posted above. However, as a train approaches (or any sound producing item) it APPEARS to increase in frequency, IE: the sound waves appear to be getting smaller and closer together, even though they are not. It's just that they are striking you faster as the train approaches and your brain interprets that as higher-frequenct sound. As the train moves away, each sound wave takes just a little longer to reach you, and so it seems as though the sound frequencies are getting lower, although, again, they are the same.
Regardless, the problem is with replicating the doppler effect of the sound waves. Volume control is easy, as i posted above. However, as a train approaches (or any sound producing item) it APPEARS to increase in frequency, IE: the sound waves appear to be getting smaller and closer together, even though they are not. It's just that they are striking you faster as the train approaches and your brain interprets that as higher-frequenct sound. As the train moves away, each sound wave takes just a little longer to reach you, and so it seems as though the sound frequencies are getting lower, although, again, they are the same.
DirectSound3D API simulates doppler effect automatically. Problem is you have to assume the operators position relative to the object that is moving to realistically simulate it.
SpaceMouse wrote: Let's see if we can brainstorm and get by the theoretical limitations of speaker size and sound wave length. What can we do to create a realistic sound environment? Let's not get too involved with "reality." Rather let's look to expand the envelope. I'll start with two ideas.Stereo or quad speakers that broadcast sound based upon the location of the decoder. In other words. A computer circuit picks up the telemetry of the loco (or anything else) and adjusts the sound balance to appear to come from a specific location. A single sound device can then generate sounds to appear at any location on the layout--sawmill at G3, creek at H9, dirt bike at A2. There can be a library of sounds or you can record your own. Sub-woofer under the layout, of course.This might be tougher. Create a larger sound wave that a speaker can handle by staggering sound waves to create resonance.
Let's see if we can brainstorm and get by the theoretical limitations of speaker size and sound wave length. What can we do to create a realistic sound environment? Let's not get too involved with "reality." Rather let's look to expand the envelope. I'll start with two ideas.
Stereo or quad speakers that broadcast sound based upon the location of the decoder. In other words. A computer circuit picks up the telemetry of the loco (or anything else) and adjusts the sound balance to appear to come from a specific location. A single sound device can then generate sounds to appear at any location on the layout--sawmill at G3, creek at H9, dirt bike at A2. There can be a library of sounds or you can record your own. Sub-woofer under the layout, of course.
This might be tougher.
Create a larger sound wave that a speaker can handle by staggering sound waves to create resonance.
The former suggestion is actually doable. The easy part is moving the sound volumes. You do that by setting detectors around the track. As the loco passes a certain point, volume on the speaker nearest is increased while volume is decreased on the others at proportional rates based upon distance from the loco. In an earlier thread I suggested perhaps using a sound decoder with a speaker system rather than mounting it in the loco/train. That way you have matching decoders, one in the loco and one with the speaker system so that the sounds come through the stereo rather than the tiny train-based one. I'm stilling mulling that over, however.
Regardless, the problem is with replicating the doppler effect of the sound waves. Volume control is easy, as I posted above. However, as a train approaches (or any sound producing item) it APPEARS to increase in frequency, IE: the sound waves appear to be getting smaller and closer together, even though they are not. It's just that they are striking you faster as the train approaches and your brain interprets that as higher-frequenct sound. As the train moves away, each sound wave takes just a little longer to reach you, and so it seems as though the sound frequencies are getting lower, although, again, they are the same.
So, how to replicate that effect? You'd need to calculate the sound wave based upon it's transmitted frequency, modified by the speed of the train relative to the speaker (listener), and be able to vary that proportionally as the train speeds up or slows down in real time. Doable, but a lot of math for the computer to deal with.
Point of order: I was a sonar operator in the Navy and spent years dealing with sound concepts in various environments. I don't know it all, but I do know a few things :) especially Doppler stuff. sigh.
Anyway, the good news is that it is a doable thing, and to my mind, a much better concept to have multiple larger speakers mounted around and about the layout rather than train-mounted speakers. Quality of sound would be incredibly enhanced, and even though it's not bad today, it could be so much better. Current sound quality is directly related to speaker size, as the cone can only push so much air. There's a ohysical limit to how good a sound you will get, and trains are currently at about it.
Respects,
SpaceMouse wrote: Stereo or quad speakers that broadcast sound based upon the location of the decoder. In other words. A computer circuit picks up the telemetry of the loco (or anything else) and adjusts the sound balance to appear to come from a specific location. A single sound device can then generate sounds to appear at any location on the layout--sawmill at G3, creek at H9, dirt bike at A2. There can be a library of sounds or you can record your own. Sub-woofer under the layout, of course.
I thought about doing this using something called DirectSound3D built into the windows DirectX API. Like a bird chirping a flying from point A->B. But I have so much on my plate right now like wireless controllers with my own custom program that I dropped it.
Neat idea though. Having 40->50 sounds playing QUIETLY in the background so they are barely noticed, controlled by a computer sounds like a neat project.
For example, stopping a train at a coal loader and the detection block lets the computer know and the coal dumping sounds begin. (Or hearing cars stop and go in a city at lights)
Or have a torpedo car back up into a blast furnace and have the block detection go off, thereby signalling that the sound of hot metal flowing can start (as well as activate the proper black light to light the pig iron)
Blast furnaces are noise beast when they open the top of the furnace to the atmosphere.
Like I said, it was too ambitious a project on top of everything else I have to do from finishing the basement to coding the wireless cabs.
I did find a small working clock electronic recording of westminster chimes though, and stuck it under my church. That way I know what time it is.