Is a lack of entry level kits creating a skill gap

[Jetrock]

Really, if you compare the cost of model railroading to, say, those "extreme" sports, model railroading comes off looking pretty cheap compared to, say, a weekend of snowboarding. Not quite the adrenaline rush, but the worst injury I've ever gotten from model railroading was a few cuts from an X-Acto knife...compared to the expense of some popular outdoor sports, model railroading can seem downright inexpensive.

One aspect of "ready-to-run"--if you buy someone's used, pre-assembled rolling stock at a swap meet, is it still the same as buying an RTR piece in a box?

[IRONROOSTER]

I think that people who want to build kits or scratch build will always continue to do so as long as kits and parts are available. The downside to the cheaper kits disappearing is the higher entry cost for getting started in model railroading. I started out buiding MDC kits and Atlas buildings. That got my first layout started at a cost I could afford. On the other hand, having RTR lets people get started who don't have the time to build the kits.
Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

I voted no on this but only because anyone who doe smodel railroading knows there is much more to the hobby than just the rolling stock and Locomotives.

There is also the scenery.

Anyone who does a MRR has to make a layout of some form even if it is just some track on the living room floor around the christmas tree. That takes some time and effort, though admittedly very little.

Most who seriously model do it in spades. They create the layout and scenery. Some with a set plan, other on a whim as they go along. It still requires some skills to make the scene happen.

I do admit that the RTR prices will more than likely scare off more than a few beginners to the hobby unfortunately. I know I nearly choked when I saw the prices of the locomotives now. I was remembering the prices back in the 70's when I was a kid.

All in all modelling in general is on a downturn. It is like all these new "Extreme" Sports out there. In many ways modeling has turned into an elitist hobby for many and the prices reflect this. The days are gone of the cheap thrill of a train set and making your own little world. It has become more of a scale modeling haven now as more people are looking for accurate and super detailed models of thier liking.

I personally like to just run the trains and I have spent many an hour on the floor of my hobby room just watching that little Life Like GP38 pull that string of 10 El Cheapo Life Like, Bachmann and Tyco cars around my little look of EZ Track on the floor. Does this dimini***he hobby for me..... No.

What it does is inspire me to come up with ways to make the cheap rolling stock I have look better through weathering and other modeling skills.

[AggroJones]

RTR has taken alot of the model building out of model railroading. I enjoy slowly creating a model from pieces. Personally I don't really care for freight cars that come totally assembled and carry a much heftier price tag than in kit form. For example, MDC's has some HO boxcars that are like $8 kit in form, then RTR versions are $20! Insane!
Give me Athearn kits any day.

[Jetrock]

Rabbidigerbal: You're not the only former GW gamer here! I got heavily into Warhammer 40K when it first came out--I lost interest once there were a lot of official (and expensive) kits available and GW started actively discouraging design-your-own vehicles with their official army lists. I still have a hatful of kitbashed tanks for my Space Snotling Armada.

Closer to model railroading, my first introduction to SF miniatures wargaming was an earlier game called STRIKER, which was intended for 15mm miniatures. But, since there was a dearth of 15mm minis in the middle 1980's, and plenty of HO/OO scale military minis, I used those instead--using kitbashing skills I first learned while model railroading, and even utilizing a lot of leftover model railroading parts that I had when I was a teen.

I'd agree that today's kids (and thus, today's young adults) are not encouraged skills like craftsmanship, working with tools and creativity--they require and develop other skills like patience and planning which are hard to find in our instant-gratification society. As you folks new to the hobby are discovering, model railroads don't spring up overnight. Kits, even simple ones, are discouraging to kids who expect to be able to start using something as soon as they open the box. Maybe that's why, even in today's high-unemployment economy, skilled trades have to advertise on TV for employees...

Perhaps the ongoing trend towards smaller and smaller layouts (due to limited space and time) will have an eventual effect (assuming people can overcome the tendency towards instant gratification and lack of craftsman skills) of more detailed layouts--since it's much easier to superdetail a small layout than a large one. If all you have is six feet of shelf layout, it becomes easier to concentrate on the small details that are easy to overlook on a large layout.

And perhaps, just perhaps, those of us who can teach kids about the fun of putting together kits, the rewards of patience of craftsmanship, can help those kids become adults who share those values. I don't have kids myself--but I take every opportunity I can to show my friends and family's kids my layout and imbue them with the love of trains (and "Uncle Bill" is always happy to help the parents put a train under the Christmas tree!)

[Anonymous]

May I step in and say "Time is the Tyrant" here.

Athearn kits are very nice for those who can put one together in about an hour or less. Accurail is very nice for details. The old Trainmasters sadly is no more. Round House to me needs to modernize a bit.

Time is what most people dont have. Between my commitments in real life and the hobby so far it has taken me about a year to rebuild my collection. I even take advantage of some nice ready to run. Such as the Intermountain 40' reefers. I also use ready to run cars or cabooses as a starting point for kitbashing. I am not afraid to repaint a caboose that cost 30 dollars simply because they do not model a favorite road.

Any kind of hobby takes time, skill and knowlege. It is our duty to maintain the tribal knowlege and encourage our children and thier children to keep the flame lit. Model Railroader has done so much to guide us over this last 50 or so years. I believe they will continue to do so long after I am dead.

It is one of the few wholesome and "Clean" hobbies left in this world.

Good Luck all.

Lee

[Anonymous]

Perhaps we need to also factor in outside railroading sources of learning. While I did vote yes and I also see some disinterest in general normal modeling (like motorcars and planes) I'd like you to consider that there are other sources of learning the skills needed in model railroading...

For example, I have little model railroading experience however I have lots of skills picked up by doing miniature gaming and creating the terrain and structures for that. Anyone who has had a hobby of games workshop miniatures has the kitbashing, painting, and construction skills suited perfectly for modeling trains... well perhaps except the electrical.

Perhaps in the end there really is only two types of model railroaders anyways... those who it's a passing interest perhaps happy with a clunky plastic christmas tree set up and those who decide they want to take it to a serious hobby. Now for those folks the learning curve will be quick.

[tomwatkins]

I don't think so. First, I don't really like the trend to RTR, especially by Intermountain and Red Caboose, because I really enjoy building their kits. However, there are still a zillion Athearn kits available on hobby shop shelves. Accurail makes affordable, accurate and easy to assemble kits. The Branchline Yardmaster series also fits in this category. The Branchline Blueprint series and the Intermountain and Red Caboose kits which are still available aren't, in my opinion, that big a step up in degree of difficulty. They take more time than "shake the box" kits, but the reward in improved accuracy and detail is worth the investment of time. The kits, for a variety of skill levels, are still available. It really depends on whether model railroaders want to spend their time building kits, or spend their money for RTR.

Tom Watkins

[CBQ_Guy]

I'm thinking the answer could possibly be the question itself just turned around a bit:
"Lack of skill is creating a deluge of RTR."

Those of you familar with my take on this know that I am no fan of the demise of kits or the rise in RTR, BUT...
I have had numerous people tell me that the kids nowadays aren't taught or encouraged how to develop basic construction skills, use of tools, etc. I don't know if this is the case or not, but it's what I'm being told repeatedly. Then of course you have the whole instant gratification thing that's been around for a couple decades now, I believe. I don't know if this is good or bad, possibly just different than how things were in the past.

I don't believe the manufacturers are TRYING to force the RTR down our throats, though I'm sure they're happy they can increase their profit by being able to sell these at much higher cost than simple shake the box kits of days gone by. For the most part they are, at least I've been told and it seems to make sense, that they are responding to what the public is buying. It's a fact that sales of RTR, despite the much higher cost, are far out pacing sales of kits. I just don't think some simple kits should be abandoned altogether since I think some encouragement and support should be given to those, adult or child, who want to for whatever reason, build these type of kits, and there are legitimate reasons to do so, in my opinion. Lowest cost for the youngster to be able to participate in the hobby, a steady supply of running or ops fodder for the "good enough" crowd, or as a starting point and/or stepping stone to the more advanced skills one can use in the hobby if one so chooses, no matter what your age.

[Jetrock]

And if kit cars have a sudden resurgence in popularity, watch them turn around and discontinue their RTR line in favor of kits! It wouldn't be that simple--they're still building "kits", they just assemble them at the plant. Just lay off your assemblers and stick in an instruction sheet and presto, the parts for an RTR car become a kit!

[Anonymous]

My friend Jerry at the hobby store has shown me though where Athearn is discontinueing their entire kit line to manufacture solely ready to run cars.

[Jetrock]

I agree with the "no" vote--I find plenty of shake-the-box kits on store shelves, and agree that while Accurail kits are very well-made, they aren't remotely a "craftsman" kit--though I consider a "craftsman" kit to mean things like Labelle wood interurban kits (the common phrase being, "If you want to learn how to scratchbuild wooden trolley cars, build a Labelle kit.")

Maybe they're gearing up to make more RTR rolling stock because those STB kits are just sitting on store shelves! If they have warehouses full of 'em, perhaps they're waiting to sell them off before they make more. And since companies produce products to sell, not to sit on store shelves, they're just filling a demand.

And even RTR equipment can provide some modeling fun--as it's certainly possible to spend lots of time weathering, superdetailing and kitbashing RTR equipment--it's just cheaper to do it with a shake-the-box kit!

[Anonymous]

First, My vote is NO (and it would not take it) because there are more C$10.00 Athearn kits on the shelf than anything else. Literaly dozens as oppesed to only a handful of resin kits. I wi***hat all the manufacturers would release thier RTR in kits as well. That way we could get that gorgeous PS-1 box car from KD at a price we can afford and the enjoyment of building it.

[dehusman]

I disagree that Accurail isn't meant for the beginner, it is sort of an accurate, detailed shake the box kit (this is no slam, I have numerous Accurail kits and value them for their detail in one piece moldings).

But there is very little at the bottom or in the middle. You go from an Accurail kit up to a very detailed plastic kit or a resin kit. A large jump. In addition the prices are astronomical. Cars (even kits) for $15-20 a pop for the more detailed variety, $25-35 for the higher end. Making a meet between two 25 car trains can represent a $1200-1500 investment.

[Anonymous]

First the poll would not take my vote which was no. There will always be those who will scratch built models. You might see the end numbers decline because many people like "easy to do". But if ModelRailroader keeps putting detailed plans in their magazine, there will be those that want to build them.

But what if there was a movement towards accurately detailed models that people would build. Manufacturers sales of present merchandise would go down and they would respond.

The more you actually build of a model, the more satisfaction you get seeing it in operation. I enjoy seeing something I have built and appreciate it more. But this is my opinion. What about you?

[Anonymous]

Hello,

I tend to view my self as some what of a craftsman level model builder. I have recently became aware of a serious lack of entry level kits quite suddenly with this hobby. On a recent visit to the hobby shop I discovered that the only kits in stock were made by LBF Company, Branchline Trains, and Accurail. These kit's aren't really intended for the first time kit builder. With Walthers, MDC, and Athearn converting to Pure Ready to Run lines to stay competitive with Bachmann and Life-Like, I seriously fear that the fine kit building and craftsman tradition of this hobby will soon be lost. I am wondering if I am the only one that feels this way.