Just who does their market research?

[CAZEPHYR]

On page 1 of the December MR, there is a full page ad for Walthers’ new offering of a four-car New York Rapid Transit Subway train. Just how many subway modelers are out there?

Same issue, page 40, the Trainworld ad still touts the dawn-of-railroading Lafayette, John Bull and De Witt Clinton train sets. Can’t you just see a marketing exec pitching these concepts to the boss? “Hey Chief, think of the potential… thousands upon thousands of pre-Civil War model railroaders, plus the huge untapped collector market, we’ll sell millions of these!!! We’ll need to tool these babies up for heavy sales volume!”

I model the 1910-ish era and yes there is a variety of period-appropriate shake-the-box and craftsman kits, but there are considerable gaps in what’s available. For practical purposes, there are no models of wooden gondolas or hoppers other than pricey craftsman kits, and non-craftsman examples of closed vestibule wood passenger cars are almost as rare.

I realize I model a niche era, and I don’t expect everything on my wish list to leap off the LHS shelf at me. But I would think that something as common as period hopper cars (which have some application to the not-so-niche steam/diesel era) would be ahead of those De Witt Clintons.     

Or maybe we just need one more F Unit!

 

There are a few modelers out there that would want the NYRT, but this hobby has always been driven by a few manufacturers that offer model prototypes of their own desires.   I don't see anything wrong with the NYRT cars being offered, but it would be of little interest to the majority of the hobby world and might not sell well.   Who knows what the interest might be of such models until they are offered for sale to the mass market.  

 In all fairness to any company offering new products, they have the right to offer anything they want.  They must look after their own interest and if the model does not sell, they could run short of money and have their shelves loaded with unwanted models.   That is probably the reason most companies continue to duplicate proven sales leaders in the model train world.  Does the name Big Boy ring a bell???  

 Almost everyone has or is making a copy of one of the Big Boy, one of the most famous steam engines available today.  It certainly has been a favorite model with most of us and the companies that offer it have made money time after time.  It would seem that after Trix offered the Die cast metal model of the Big Boy, no one would try again.  The Trix model is one of the all time great running models of any steam engine and looks good, even if it is not the best ever for detail.    Only three or four years of so after this great model came out, Athearn and PCM came out with the same engine and they have sold very well.    Even Horby is offering the old Rivarossi model, that is completly out of date except for the updated drive system.  The 1910 era that you model is very interesting and more might join you if books of this era were more common.  All of my many books on railroads usually focus on the 1930 era to the mid fifties, the most common documented steam era.   This was considered the Super Power era for steam and the WW II era was the last great gasp of steam being built for the job of moving freight during war time.   I would have to believe is it was not for WW II, the diesel would have been purchased in even greater numbers sooner.  Diesel production was limited during the war due to material shortages in the new field and and steam builders had a field day building new locomotives that would be scrap in only a few years.  

Tenshodo/PFM, LMB, Gem, Olympic, Key, Overland, Sunset, Trix, Athearn, PCM both Die Cast and Brass and Hornby have all made or are offering the Big Boy.   Key has it listed again, but the PCM brass model seems to have beat Key to the model. 

The early era you model has been overlooked for many years by most manufactures.  I noticed Athearn has been pushing the MDC locomotives again.  I am not sure if they run better now but those product should fit into the early 20th Century era.   If these models sell well, maybe they will offer some early freight cars and other items that have not been available.   Good sales of a product line usually encourages the company to offer more in that line. 

Who knew we needed some more F units when the Genesis line came out.  I was the owner of fifteen Highliner B shells for several years before Athearn took over the product and finished the A unit.  Most of us who were familiar with those Highliner shells were very happy when the F unit A and B sets were offered factory completed, but the odds that they would sell as well as they did was a surprise to me.     

To answer your question, Who does their market research???.   

 We really have no way of knowing. 

 

CAZEPHYR

 

   

 

[RR Redneck]

You are the only person that I know of that models that early, and in such a small corner of the hobby (no offense), but what do you expect?

[jblackwelljr]

I'm modeling the Reading RR.  There are certain items that are available in kit or RTR form (both cheap and expensive) and there are others that just aren't.  For those that aren't, my choices are:

• Scratch build or modify an existing item
• Compromise and use a "close enough" item
• Model another RR

This is an age-old dilemma and I don't expect manufacturers to meet a lot of my needs.  But it does present a opportunity to develop some skills.

[MisterBeasley]

A few people have expressed interest in subway modelling, but I think I'm the only one on this forum that's actually done it:

I'm using both the Life-Like/Walthers Proto R-17 cars and a Bowser PCC car on my mass transit system.  This is an older run of the "dark" Redbird cars with the silver roofs.  Actually, very little of my subway system is visible from the surface - the stations are on the edge of the layout and you can look in from one side.  Most of the trackwork is hidden beneath a series of lift-offs, which I leave in place unless I need access to the track.

 

The master plan all along called for a video camera in the front car, which I used for this old, dark video.  (Gotta update that one of these days.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=dOV9NSqrQlc

 

As for the marketing?  Well, lately I've seen a few fire sales on old Life-Like stuff, even at Walthers.  I'm not sure they're trying to pump up interest to build the subway line.  In fact, I'd imagine that they might be testing the waters to see if they should phase out production of these models.  They may have already decided to put the molds in storage, and they're now just trying to clear out their inventory.

[Newyorkcentralfan]

hardcoalcase wrote:

 "On page 1 of the December MR, there is a full page ad for Walthers’ new offering of a four-car New York Rapid Transit Subway train. Just how many subway modelers are out there?"

It's not a new offering. It was originally released by Life-Like back in early 2003. I think it coincided with the retirement of that particular class of car from the NYCTA's roster.

They came about because Trainworld paid for a portion of the tooling costs. Part of their reason for doing this was because they had an agreement with Life-Like in which they were the exclusive retailer of the subway cars for a period of time.

 

[ndbprr]

Just so you know I do buy GG1's.  I now have 28 all repainted and decaled with different numbers.  It sure would be easier if somebody would do one besides 4828 and 4829 :-)!  To finish my PRR Philadelphia layout I am probably going to need 10-15 more before I am done.  I'm very happy to see more of them made. It keeps my EBay costs in line when I buy them there.

[jecorbett]

I got one of the John Bull sets from a well meaning sister about 20 years ago. At the time I was modeling the UP so it would have been a stretch to fit that into my scheme. (Shel also gave me a GG-1 several years later). I would guess that since these museum pieces have been on the market for decades that somebody must be buying them. Either that or they are like fruitcakes. Lots of people give them but nobody actually eats them.

PS. Subway modeling is one of the easiest additions to any model railroad. All you need is a few stairwells and some signs pointing downward.

[jsoderq]

In defense of maufacturers(who I worked for for 9 years) there is  lot more research than what people think. First of all, these are businesses and in order to survive they must make money. Just because they don't make your favorite whatchathingy does not mean it hasn't been looked at. There are many requirements to bring an item to production. Information, tooling, production all have to be considered. I know at least one major Amtrak project that was not done because the toolmakers could not figure out how to get it out of the mold after it was molded. Because of the tremendous cost of tooling, many items will be made to be interchanged with already available tooling. Why do you think Athearn passenger cars are all the same length? Why are there so many 40' boxcars? Many published drawings are full of mistakes and don't have enough info to actually do the tooling.

[andrechapelon]

Same issue, page 40, the Trainworld ad still touts the dawn-of-railroading Lafayette, John Bull and De Witt Clinton train sets. Can’t you just see a marketing exec pitching these concepts to the boss? “Hey Chief, think of the potential… thousands upon thousands of pre-Civil War model railroaders, plus the huge untapped collector market, we’ll sell millions of these!!! We’ll need to tool these babies up for heavy sales volume!”

What's all the excitement? The John Bull and De Witt Clinton have been available for something approaching a quarter century. Mantua made a model of the General and the tooling for that's over 50 years old. RMC had an article in it over 40 years ago about kitbashing an 0-8-0 Winans Camel in HO and there's been a few articles in MR about the Civil War era USMR (United State Military Railroad). Then there was the 1/25 model of the General done a while ago.

As for subway cars, MTH has also done them in 3 rail O gauge. Seems to me I remember a company that, for years, imported brass models of various New York subway cars.

This is nothing new.

Andre

[Kurt_Laughlin]

Why complain?  If you didn't put up the money who cares what they make? 

Because the complainers think that IF ONLY the company hadn't made item X, then that company - or better yet the company the complainer thinks should do it - would have made a model of the thing they wanted.

I've seen the same thing in both the plastic armor and aircraft worlds.  Although we live in a world of finite resources, not everything is a zero sum game.

The clammering you mention usually starts with somebody saying, "I wish there was a kit of a Shlurm", then somebody chimes in "If they did, I'd buy a dozen!!"  Two years - and many dollars - later a kit comes out.  And sits on the shelf.  Why?  "Wrong version."  "Too expensive."  "Heard it was a bad kit."  "I bought one of that company's kits a few years ago and it stunk.  I'll never buy another."  "I'm waiting for ABC Co to come out with one." 

KL

 

[reklein]

On page 1 of the December MR, there is a full page ad for Walthers’ new offering of a four-car New York Rapid Transit Subway train. Just how many subway modelers are out there?  

And wouldn't it be hard to see the subway trains, without x-ray vision?

 

Jeff

Well, correct me if I'm mistaken, but I do believe most subway modelers use "cutaway views" so the trains are visible at least some of the time. Brad

That was an attempt at humor.  Guess it didn't work.  Sorry.  : (

 

Jeff

Worked for me!!!Made me think of R/C submarines.

[ndbprr]

As a University of Chicago graduate with an MBA in Marketing I can tell you that the hobby is too small to get an accurate representation of what should sell.  Until the advent of diesels there was no standardization so somebody would build say a 4-6-2 and label it for every railroad to sell enough to justify it.  even with diesles somebody complains about the minutest of details nto being accurately represented and by the way it should be able to take 15" radius curves in HO.  We are entering an era where we are and will see limited runs of plastic just like brass in the 60's-80's.  If Walthers has a drive they can use under those cars the only cost is ofr the shell which while expensive is half as much as building a whole new drive also.  Our hobby is too fragmented and too small to do any kind of research that would have any degree of accuracy.  I have often thought if I wonthe lottery there are certain engines I wuld like to produce.  Do you think if I walked into any current manufacturer and asked them how many should be in my first run they would tell me?  Then there is the factor that somebody decides we should have something like the DL-109 or the E33 electric so the clammering begins.  Some poor manufacturer decides to invest the dollars necessary and low and behold the clammering was a very distinct minority of modelers who wanted them and they are losers.  If engines like those and the AEM-7's can be built why not subway cars? Selling a prototype car into the most densely populated area of the country has a far bigger chance of success than making a C&IM one of a kind diesel.  Why complain?  If you didn't put up the money who cares what they make?  I'd bet they would jump at the opportunity to have a group of modelers hand them the cash for the dies for anything and would gladly produce the most obscure item ever heard of. 

[TwinZephyr]

I suspect market research actually consists of whatever upper level management and/or product development employees find interesting or want for their own personal collections.  This may be further influenced by availability of drawings, photos, etc.

[CNJ831]

On page 1 of the December MR, there is a full page ad for Walthers’ new offering of a four-car New York Rapid Transit Subway train. Just how many subway modelers are out there?

I realize I model a niche era, and I don’t expect everything on my wish list to leap off the LHS shelf at me. But I would think that something as common as period hopper cars (which have some application to the not-so-niche steam/diesel era) would be ahead of those De Witt Clintons.     

Or maybe we just need one more F Unit!

Hardcoal - You fail to appriciate the broad appeal of certain items. Examples of Big Boys are probably among the largest sellers of any steam locomotive because a great many hobbyist like to have a model of the largest steam locomotive ever...even if it's out of their modeling era and they never run it. The De Witt Clinton/ John Bull have a similar although probably lesser appeal and makes an idea contrast with something like the Big Boy when displayed. HO examples of all three models have been in an out of production for at least 40 years now so they must sell in significant numbers.

In the instance of NYC subway cars, hobbyists today, especially those interested in the transit area, understand that any runs of unusual items appealing to them will undoubtedly be very limited and done only once. It will be "buy-it-now or never get one", so those with even a vague interest in the items will jump on them if there is even the slightest chance of needing them for some future modeling project/layout. Many transit modelers will certainly buy them simply for display.

On the other hand, period rolling stock dating from a century ago have an extremely limited customer base and such items will have no particular appeal to anyone outside those few modeling the era. I would say that from a retailers viewpoint that Walthers, et al. are choosing their models very wisely when it comes to rapidly moving their products.

CNJ831 

 

[1shado1]

On page 1 of the December MR, there is a full page ad for Walthers’ new offering of a four-car New York Rapid Transit Subway train. Just how many subway modelers are out there?  

And wouldn't it be hard to see the subway trains, without x-ray vision?

 

Jeff

Well, correct me if I'm mistaken, but I do believe most subway modelers use "cutaway views" so the trains are visible at least some of the time. Brad

That was an attempt at humor.  Guess it didn't work.  Sorry.  : (

 

Jeff

[twcenterprises]

On page 1 of the December MR, there is a full page ad for Walthers’ new offering of a four-car New York Rapid Transit Subway train. Just how many subway modelers are out there?  

And wouldn't it be hard to see the subway trains, without x-ray vision?

 

Jeff

Well, correct me if I'm mistaken, but I do believe most subway modelers use "cutaway views" so the trains are visible at least some of the time. Brad

[1shado1]

On page 1 of the December MR, there is a full page ad for Walthers’ new offering of a four-car New York Rapid Transit Subway train. Just how many subway modelers are out there?  

And wouldn't it be hard to see the subway trains, without x-ray vision?

 

Jeff

[Metro Red Line]

On page 1 of the December MR, there is a full page ad for Walthers’ new offering of a four-car New York Rapid Transit Subway train. Just how many subway modelers are out there?

Not many of course. I remember in the mid '80s Walthers came out with models of SF's BART and Washington DC's Metro cars. Or at least I've seen their ads in MR.

But for many people in urban areas, subways are probably the only direct exposure they have to trains. The typical NYer would see a subway train far more often than a CSX freight train rumbling by.  And more cities in the US and around the world are developing rail transit systems, so these kinds of trains arefast becoming more a part of people's daily lives. Of course NYC has the most well-known subway in the world, so why not finally come out with plastic models of it? I guess there's enough NYers and NY transplants around the world to justify the market, heheh.

I'm an uban transit enthusiast as well (my username and avatar speaks for itself), and I think subway models are a great thing, though admittedly not a very smart business move in terms of mass-prodicing models. Very few cities have the same kind of train ltransit equipment, and there are even different models of transit vehicles among one city's system! Athearn modeling the popular Bombardier commuter coaches was a good move no doubt, especially that many cities use those exact same cars.

 

[PA&ERR]

1) Why waste money advertizing something you know that people are going to want to buy anyway (ie SD70s, Technitoasters, the latest container rack, etc)? Why not spend the money advertising something you have that nobody knows about?

2) True, not alot of people are going to be modelling subways. However, few people buy only the prototype and era (and even scale) that they model. I have a couple of GG1s and an AEM7 even though none of my layouts were of the NE Corridor. Why? I just had to have them that's why.

3) Since Walthers has been around longer than many of the people who post to this forum have been alive, I think they are entitled to take their own consel as to what is the best use of their marketing dollars.

-George

 

[switchman]

I agree with your comments about who does market research.  I feel the same way about the current premier Model railroad Establishment.  I model n Scale and it is fast approaching parity with HO and for a long time has surpassed the other scales.

The entire world is down sizing yet the establishment (includes associations) media still reports as if it's a world of  65% HO, 20% Other scales, and 15% N scale.  The media and market research firms are missing the new direction of Model Railroading. Condos, apartments, are are not suitable for HO but are ideal for N and also Z scale. Most multiscale publications and associations have a IMO, bias toward HO, Garden, and other large scales.  I believe the long term trend for these media is downward unless they begin to highlight the smaller scales of N and Z. The dedicated N scale media and Internet sites are flourishing.

I just wonder if the current MRR establishment is paying attention.

See Ya          

[hardcoalcase]

On page 1 of the December MR, there is a full page ad for Walthers’ new offering of a four-car New York Rapid Transit Subway train. Just how many subway modelers are out there?

Same issue, page 40, the Trainworld ad still touts the dawn-of-railroading Lafayette, John Bull and De Witt Clinton train sets. Can’t you just see a marketing exec pitching these concepts to the boss? “Hey Chief, think of the potential… thousands upon thousands of pre-Civil War model railroaders, plus the huge untapped collector market, we’ll sell millions of these!!! We’ll need to tool these babies up for heavy sales volume!”

I model the 1910-ish era and yes there is a variety of period-appropriate shake-the-box and craftsman kits, but there are considerable gaps in what’s available. For practical purposes, there are no models of wooden gondolas or hoppers other than pricey craftsman kits, and non-craftsman examples of closed vestibule wood passenger cars are almost as rare.

I realize I model a niche era, and I don’t expect everything on my wish list to leap off the LHS shelf at me. But I would think that something as common as period hopper cars (which have some application to the not-so-niche steam/diesel era) would be ahead of those De Witt Clintons.     

Or maybe we just need one more F Unit!