Outside 3rd Rail and John Armstrong

[Soo Line fan]

John's Canandaigua Southern was the only layout I saw (in print) with outside 3^rd rail. I was wondering if this was very common back in the day. When did this originate and why? Was this used so Lionel equipment could be run? Did everyone use DC with this type of track or were some guys using AC as well?

Thanks for any info,

 

 

[J. Edgar]

i remember an old family friend had a O scale layout in his basement 20 years ago........it was extremely large.........the gentleman that biult it was in his 70's and had worked on it since the 50's ......it was outside 3rd rail......that and from what ive read in older MR i gather that was SOP

[fwright]

John's Canandaigua Southern was the only layout I saw (in print) with outside 3^rd rail. I was wondering if this was very common back in the day. When did this originate and why? Was this used so Lionel equipment could be run? Did everyone use DC with this type of track or were some guys using AC as well?

Thanks for any info,

 

Jim

Quite accurate.  The third rail allowed use of Lionel equipment without having to insulate all the wheel sets as in 2 rail operations.  The outside third rail, which was not uncommon on electrified trackage in the NE, allowed simple replacement of the center pickup rollers with an outside 3rd rail pickup.  Lionel could run on AC or DC, so the choice depended on what power supplies and other rolling stock one owned.  Finally, the 3rd rail made wiring reversing loops and signaling very easy.

yours in training

Fred W 

[jecorbett]

It seems to me that I read somewhere that the NYC's electrified 3rd rail line from Harmon to Grand Central was electrically iodentical to Lionel. Can anyone confirm this.

[dinwitty]

using a center contact? very rare, but an electric loco so known to lionel used 3rd rail outside but for switch areas and crossings where the 3rd rail wasnt continuous. it had small pantagraphs.

 

I experimented with HO 3rd rail, not very good, I will simulate 3rd rail bot wont actually work.

<> doing outside third rail is all custom work, not commercial.

 

The UCON club in New York had overhead for their electric but some looney went in and tore it up, they switched to 3rd rail (o scale) 

 

[IRONROOSTER]

It used to be very common for O gauge.  Frank Ellison's famous Delta Lines was outside 3rd rail.  The passing of John Armstrong and the dismantling of his Canadaigua Southern was the end of an era that started before WWII.

Enjoy

Paul 

[tomikawaTT]

It seems to me that I read somewhere that the NYC's electrified 3rd rail line from Harmon to Grand Central was electrically iodentical to Lionel. Can anyone confirm this.

The NYC third rail was outside the running rails, under-running design (conductor down, shoes pushed up.)  There were a few spots in the puzzlework at Grand Central where a motor could get stranded out of contact with the third rail - those had third rail (not catenary) overhead, and the motors had small, heavily-constructed pantographs to make the necessary contact.

As far as electrically identical - NYC ran on 600vdc, not 18vac.

The other third rail operation I'm familiar with was the erstwhile IRT Pelham Bay Park line and its connections - over-running third rail with a board supported above it, shoes running between the rail and the board, pressing down.

Model outside third rail (Canandaigua Southern style) was the norm until wheel insulation was made sufficiently reliable to allow two rail power distribution.  There were even a few outside third rail HO layouts back in the dark ages.

Chuck (native New Yorker, several thousand miles removed)

[mlehman]

I have many old Model Railroader magazines. For O scale operators, outside third-rail was pretty much the norm until around 1950. In fact, it seems like use of the outside third-rail was what frequently set scale modelers apart from the tinplate guys in O.

Yes, there was a little third-rail HO illustrated, but the lighter weight of HO equipment probably made it very tricky to get reliable running with that sort of pickup. Going to all power pickup through the wheels certainly helped put the weight where it would do the most good for pickup in HO.

[tgindy]

Third rail was at one time, the preferred way, to model railroad layouts. 

The other method of using "third rail" was instead to model traction with "live overhead wire" to gain the needed insulating qualities.  Thus, traction layouts were very common over fifty years ago in addition to third rail.

By the 1950s, the 2-rail track technology emerged that we now take for granted.  So today, in order to model third rail, or live overhead traction, we have to rediscover how to once again do what was at one time the practice in model railroading.

One third rail construction technique was to solder the third rail into the slot-top of flathead screws where the screw itself firmly anchored the third rail into the layout to help secure electrical current.

Going back into the "Library Archives" I found...

[1]  "Classic Articles from Model Railroader," and Frank C. Ellison's article, "Delta Lines."

http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=BOOK&MO=4&YR=1980&output=3

Sure enough, there was the third rail for a locomotive shoe pick-up in the black & white photos, circa 1955.

 

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[2]  "Track Design" by Hal Carstens, still available, at RMC's Carstens Publications.

http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=BOOK&MO=3&YR=1989&output=5

On page 16, the, "Insulated Rail Joiners" chapter begins...

"It is part of the nature of 2-rail model railroading that from time to time you need insulated rail joints, for reasons which will soon become apparent.  In fact, they are useful even on 3-rail layouts to isolate one running rail for signaling or working with a crossing gate - remember the fibre pins and matchsticks?"

Question:  What does "even on 3-rail layouts" say about 3-rail vs. 2-rail at one time?

On page 17, under the trackplan for "Bluefield-Princeton Interurban" we see...

"The original design called for cars to operate from both overhead trolley wire and sections equipped with outside third rail."

 

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[3]  Again from "Track Design" by Hal Carstens.

On page 40, in the "Reversing Sections" by William Schopp, the Layout Doctor...

"In the early days of model railroading, nearly everyone ran his trains from third rail - inside or outside - or overhead wire.  'Twas said that two-rail was too complicated when it came to insulating engines, cars and switches - and in wiring reversing tracks.  In spite of such warnings, there were two-rail pikes....."

[Soo Line fan]

Thanks for the insight. Am I correct to assume the reason John stayed with this system long after others went to standard 2 rail was it was simply too much work to change? He had a fully functioning model railroad and would have had to replace or modify the track, control system and equipm

[tgindy]

Thanks for the insight. Am I correct to assume the reason John stayed with this system long after others went to standard 2 rail was it was simply too much work to change? He had a fully functioning model railroad and would have had to replace or modify the track, control system and equipment.

Jim

 

Model Railroader did an in-depth 3-part series, "The Canandaigua Southern today."

Part 1:  Overview with Trackplan (July 1996).

Part 2:  Scenery & Nightime Lighting (August 1996).

Part 3:  Signaling & Operations (September 1996).

This series is priceless with the full rationale of the Canandaigua Southern.  The third rail is very evident in the pictures, and the CSRR was noted for its signaling, let alone layout trackplanning.

There is also a quote from Arvid Anderson in part one about O Scalers...

"The one thing they are good at is waiting. They can go for years without buying anything, waiting until there is something that happens to be what they think they want - and then you're lucky they might buy two of 'em."

"Well, by 1970 the CSRR had a rag-tag bunch of 50-ton coal hoppers, built from scratch and from rather crude early kits...  Imagine by then, the Canandaigua Southern should have been hauling most of its coal with newer 70-tonners."

Needless to say, that changed with the advent in 1972 of the Atlas O Scale ore cars.  The chart about "emties in - empties out" with newer CSRR hidden staging is fascinating.

 

---

"Model Railroad Planning 1995" had a John Armstrong interview with Doug Gurin.  Here's the last question...

Doug:  "One last question: If you had to move and wanted to salvage part of the CS for a new layout, would you save the yard and build new staging?"

John:  "Oh, gosh. I think I'd just lie there and die. There are just some things you don't want to hear about."

[hminky]

It is amazing to realize that John Armstrong designed his layout in the late 1940's and it had all the "modern" stuff: staging, walkaround control, linear progression, etc. If he had more scenery it would have been in the model press more. I saw it in the 1982 and it was an impressive model railroad design.

Most of the "modern" ideas were from his fertile mind, sometimes it would be nice if he were given credit by other authors for their "ideas".

Just a thought
Harold

[dknelson]

My recollection is that Armstrong had a small segment of two rail DC on his layout where he used the little Atlas "hustler" type Plymouth switchers.  

I would not be shocked to learn that there are still a few outside third rail O scale systems out there, either being run by a stubborn geezer or someone who acquired it from a geezer.   

As far as HO third rail goes, while it is inside rather than outside third rail the concept lives on -- in terms of ease of wiring -- in Maerklin's A.C. powered HO system -- where instead of an inside third rail it uses small studs in the ties.  

Dave Nelson

 

[wjstix]

Yes outside third rail was the way to go for O for many years. Remember the first mass-produced "scale" stuff was from Lionel and ran on three rail track. I believe the scale Hudson and B6 0-6-0 from Lionel had some provisions in their design to make it easier to convert them to outside third rail. I believe they had AC motors but you could install a DC motor or use a bridge rectifier - though I'm nos sure when those became available. Remember then the power came from car batteries, no DC transformers / power packs on the market yet !!

 

The last O outside third rail layout I remember seeing was in MR maybe 15-20 years ago, and that guy (can't remember the name) was in the process of converting to two-rail. Pretty daunting task for a large Pennsy layout like this guy had.

 p.s. I think Atlas O was the last nail in the coffin. In the eighties it was very common for O scalers to combine Atlas F-9 powered chassis with dummy Lionel F-3's or GP-7/9's to produce 'scale' two rail models. 

 

[tsgtbob]

Outside 3rd rail was very prevalent in the early days of the hobby. I have the honor of having several cars from the Canadaguia Southern, most notably one of John's infamous Atlas B&LE ore cars. These had real Iron Ore as loads, and were HEAVY!!! I had forgotten that the CS was an outside (non insulated) operation, so, when I put one of his Atlas Stock Cars on my layout, the fire (literally) flew! The CS does still exist, in two sections, one in NJ, one in Va. John's idaes, as well as his craftsmanship will continue to inspire for decades to come. At the auction of John's stuff, I was speaking with Brian Scace, (editor of O Scale Trains), he was telling me that John was considering converting the CS to DCC (and keeping the outside 3rd rail!) That would have been a first!

[tsgtbob]

The old Hagerstown Model Railroad Club in Hagerstown Md. was outside 3rd rail. It was featured in a 1972 issue of RMC.

[Soo Line fan]

Here is a nice tribute to John, along with a track plan and some photos. You can clearly see the outside rail in the photos. http://home.comcast.net/~j.sing/Eulogy_for_John_Armstrong.html