building a helix

[joecool1212]

    I was thinking about building a helix as this is the only way of keeping the grade I want reasonable.  I have seen books that show pictures of these and am looking more into it.  Has anyone ever built one?  How do you cut the curved wood pieces so perfect?  How do you transfer a straight line incline to a curved one?  Any help would be appreaciated.  Joe A.

[claycts]

Look, is this what you want?

Rise is from 52" to 68"  2.1% grade.

This is a link to a grade chart that may help

http://www.leatherique.net/images/GRADE%20CHART.pdf

[joecool1212]

claycts, Thats kinda what im looking for except I need to go from 50'' to about 74'' so i need to go around a few more times.  Nice grade chart.  Layout looks good also.  How did you cut the curved pieces?  Joe A.

[pcarrell]

Joe, I just bought this on line a few days ago.  I've built a helix before but you can never have too much knowledge, ya know?  Anyways, it's real good, worth every penny.

http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/mrpdf032.html

[tstage]

Joe,

Mark (aka Brunton) spent the last year working on his multilevel helix and just finished it on Wednesday.  Here's the link to the thread that he just posted:

Brunton's Helix

Mark may be a good one to either bounce some questions off of, or pick his brains for some helpful tips.

Tom

[claycts]

claycts, Thats kinda what im looking for except I need to go from 50'' to about 74'' so i need to go around a few more times.  Nice grade chart.  Layout looks good also.  How did you cut the curved pieces?  Joe A.

Made a tramel and then drew the radius on the plywood. Did the Cutting with a ZIP Saw. The hardest part is getting the grade correct. Splices will be in order, we glued and screwed the splice plates.

There are better designs out there but this worked.

[johncolley]

Joe, I built one a few years ago: 1. I layed out a segment, say something over 90 degrees, with inside and outside edges, and centerline, on a piece of door skin from Home depot. Go to garage sales or watch local hardware/building supply stores for a sale price saber saw (Black and Decker is good) and get some extra blades.
2. using the pattern, lay out as many segments on a sheet of 1/2" to 3/4" plywood as you can get. The lines can touch due to the thinness of the saber saw blade.
3. Butt the segments and glue/screw a splice piece underneath the jouint overlapping 3 to 4" each side of the joint.
4. Lay the cork and track one layer at a time from the bottom up, as you add the segments. It is a lot easier than building the whole thing and then trying to do the trackwork.
5. I used 24"radius but was very unhappy with the results due to longer cars overhang, so go as big a radius as you can. 30" is OK, 36" or bigger is better!
Good luck and happy railroading. jc5729

[Oakhurst Railroad Engineer]

I see people providing pictures of massive multi-track helix arrangements ... on the opposite end of the spectrum ... here is my single track 18" radius helix.

It is built into a closet in a corner of the room.  You enter the helix in the middle level and either go up 4 turns to the upper level or down two turns to complete a continuous run on the lower level.  It was actually fun to build.

You need to understand (maybe you already do) that only the radius of the curve and the thickness of the roadbed determine the grade in the helix.  Watch the grade carefully.  The worst thing is to run a train in the helix and have it not come out because it is slipping because the grade it too steep.

I sat my 18" radius sectional track on the roadboard material (hardboard sheet) and made 1/2 a loop (180 degrees).  I just traced around the track and cut it out with a jigsaw.  Then I used that one to trace out a bunch of others.  Then glued them together with a bunch of clamps, overlapping the joints so there is always two layers of hardboard.  I used cut up 1x4's (actually 3/4 x 3 1/2) as vertical spacers and supports.  Get the grade very even and constant on the 1st level and build up. Make sure to use a "standards gage" to check clearance everywhere.  and test as you go ...

I have also seen ready-made helix kits but they don't make them for 18" radius.  Anyone have experience with them?

Best of luck ...

Marty

 

[claycts]

Joe, I just bought this on line a few days ago.  I've built a helix before but you can never have too much knowledge, ya know?  Anyways, it's real good, worth every penny.

http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/mrpdf032.html

Where the heck was this when I started out!!!

[claycts]

Joe, I built one a few years ago: 1. I layed out a segment, say something over 90 degrees, with inside and outside edges, and centerline, on a piece of door skin from Home depot. Go to garage sales or watch local hardware/building supply stores for a sale price saber saw (Black and Decker is good) and get some extra blades. 2. using the pattern, lay out as many segments on a sheet of 1/2" to 3/4" plywood as you can get. The lines can touch due to the thinness of the saber saw blade. 3. Butt the segments and glue/screw a splice piece underneath the jouint overlapping 3 to 4" each side of the joint. 4. Lay the cork and track one layer at a time from the bottom up, as you add the segments. It is a lot easier than building the whole thing and then trying to do the trackwork. 5. I used 24"radius but was very unhappy with the results due to longer cars overhang, so go as big a radius as you can. 30" is OK, 36" or bigger is better! Good luck and happy railroading. jc5729

Great point we went 36" radius and gald of it. Look at this shot ooon the heliz:

As you can see very little overhang. FYI this engine max pull up the grade is 15oz (lead in a flat car "SLED")

[joecool1212]

claycts, Thats kinda what im looking for except I need to go from 50'' to about 74'' so i need to go around a few more times.  Nice grade chart.  Layout looks good also.  How did you cut the curved pieces?  Joe A.

Made a tramel and then drew the radius on the plywood. Did the Cutting with a ZIP Saw. The hardest part is getting the grade correct. Splices will be in order, we glued and screwed the splice plates.

There are better designs out there but this worked.

I did'nt think of that.  Getting my cuts looking good sound as hard as getting the grade corrct.  Thanks Joe A.

[joecool1212]

I see people providing pictures of massive multi-track helix arrangements ... on the opposite end of the spectrum ... here is my single track 18" radius helix.

It is built into a closet in a corner of the room.  You enter the helix in the middle level and either go up 4 turns to the upper level or down two turns to complete a continuous run on the lower level.  It was actually fun to build.

You need to understand (maybe you already do) that only the radius of the curve and the thickness of the roadbed determine the grade in the helix.  Watch the grade carefully.  The worst thing is to run a train in the helix and have it not come out because it is slipping because the grade it too steep.

I sat my 18" radius sectional track on the roadboard material (hardboard sheet) and made 1/2 a loop (180 degrees).  I just traced around the track and cut it out with a jigsaw.  Then I used that one to trace out a bunch of others.  Then glued them together with a bunch of clamps, overlapping the joints so there is always two layers of hardboard.  I used cut up 1x4's (actually 3/4 x 3 1/2) as vertical spacers and supports.  Get the grade very even and constant on the 1st level and build up. Make sure to use a "standards gage" to check clearance everywhere.  and test as you go ...

I have also seen ready-made helix kits but they don't make them for 18" radius.  Anyone have experience with them?

Best of luck ...

Marty

 

Nice picture! Looks a little steep, but if it works thats great.  Thanks for your help.  Joe A.

[joecool1212]

Joe, I built one a few years ago: 1. I layed out a segment, say something over 90 degrees, with inside and outside edges, and centerline, on a piece of door skin from Home depot. Go to garage sales or watch local hardware/building supply stores for a sale price saber saw (Black and Decker is good) and get some extra blades. 2. using the pattern, lay out as many segments on a sheet of 1/2" to 3/4" plywood as you can get. The lines can touch due to the thinness of the saber saw blade. 3. Butt the segments and glue/screw a splice piece underneath the jouint overlapping 3 to 4" each side of the joint. 4. Lay the cork and track one layer at a time from the bottom up, as you add the segments. It is a lot easier than building the whole thing and then trying to do the trackwork. 5. I used 24"radius but was very unhappy with the results due to longer cars overhang, so go as big a radius as you can. 30" is OK, 36" or bigger is better! Good luck and happy railroading. jc5729

Sounds like everyone thinks a patern is the best way to get consistenty.  That was one thing I was missing.  I tried to make cuts with a sabersaw but is hard to follow the line accuratly.  Cuts look ragged.  I thought it would be easier. Joe A.

[jwar]

Here is a few pictures of mine, there are several differnt ways to build one

As mentioned above good templates are a must. Layed mine out on a large cardboard, swung all rad and made sure all clearences were OK, then cut a Quarter Template and made only four quarter and double checked. Cut risers on radial arm saw to lenght, routed wire slots,

Made track rad template and marked track centers after building each turn.

No cork and 3/4 ply can be scrap short cuts from a roof contractor. mine were given me....John

[joecool1212]

Joe, I built one a few years ago: 1. I layed out a segment, say something over 90 degrees, with inside and outside edges, and centerline, on a piece of door skin from Home depot. Go to garage sales or watch local hardware/building supply stores for a sale price saber saw (Black and Decker is good) and get some extra blades. 2. using the pattern, lay out as many segments on a sheet of 1/2" to 3/4" plywood as you can get. The lines can touch due to the thinness of the saber saw blade. 3. Butt the segments and glue/screw a splice piece underneath the jouint overlapping 3 to 4" each side of the joint. 4. Lay the cork and track one layer at a time from the bottom up, as you add the segments. It is a lot easier than building the whole thing and then trying to do the trackwork. 5. I used 24"radius but was very unhappy with the results due to longer cars overhang, so go as big a radius as you can. 30" is OK, 36" or bigger is better! Good luck and happy railroading. jc5729

I found a corner of the room where I can fit the helix.  Just started negotiations with the mayor (wife) for more space.  If I get it I can fit 30'' radius in. Hopefully I can start to draw it up.  Joe A.

[claycts]

Joe A. try this:

"Honey if I build it an smaller than 30" it could COST US MORE MONEY if the trains fall on the floor because of to tight of a curve."

If you make it sound like you are trying to spend LESS money and this will help. It has a 100% success rate in this house.

30" is a good radius and just super elevate the outside rail about 1/64" and it will  work great.

[pcarrell]

Joe A. try this:

"Honey if I build it an smaller than 30" it could COST US MORE MONEY if the trains fall on the floor because of to tight of a curve."

If you make it sound like you are trying to spend LESS money and this will help. It has a 100% success rate in this house.

How'd you work that into the argument for the redhead in your avitar?  (This I've got to hear!)

[joecool1212]

Joe A. try this:

"Honey if I build it an smaller than 30" it could COST US MORE MONEY if the trains fall on the floor because of to tight of a curve."

If you make it sound like you are trying to spend LESS money and this will help. It has a 100% success rate in this house.

30" is a good radius and just super elevate the outside rail about 1/64" and it will  work great.

Thats a good one!  Ill try that on my next purchase.  But this one is about the space.  I take up 25% of the playroom and she wants that back.  I even told her she can use the space under the helix for storage but she just gets more mad.  This is really the hardest part of building the helix.  Any more suggestions would be helpful.  Joe A.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

A helix in any scale, takes up a lot of space. It also keeps your trains tied up going in circles just to get to the next level. When I was doing N-scale back some years ago (mid 80's?), I used simple grades of 1.4 to 2% to connect upper and lower levels. I could run the grade in the background and also work it into the scenery. A helix, unless you put it inside a mountain or behind something that will hide it from view, is huge, clunky and can be a scenery nightmare. Nowhere on real railroads have I ever seen a helix. The engineering problems would make it nearly impossible, though some engineers will try to tackle anything. You can try it, like I once did. I ended up regretting it later and had to tear it out, in favor of a grade that would do the same job and looked better. It was also believable. If you take pictures of your layout, scenery looking beautiful and very realistic, the effect is going to be ruined when they see the helix. But that's just my viewpoint on it. The only time I didn't use a grade to connect levels was when I used a train lift, basically an elevator for trains. Just try to picture a section of side track that is lifted on a string and pulley system to the next level, where it is driven off onto the new track.

[claycts]

Joe I do not have a HELIX, that is a NO-LIX. A HELIX is a circle on a circle of the same radius a NOLIX is a radius for about 180 deg and SHORT section of straight (our si 4" long) then the next turn up the grade. This OFFSETS the begining of the helix to the 2nd turn so you can design some scenic effect. Look at this anglle and you may be able to see the offset:

The high track is the mine the no lix is the next 2 tracks. We used the center of the No-lix for the mine lead. worked very well.

[Pruitt]

Nowhere on real railroads have I ever seen a helix.

Never been to Techacapi Loop in California, Jeffrey? That's a real-life single-loop helix. It's sole purpose is to gain elevation without taking up any linear distance, to keep the grade up the valley to a reasonable level.

Joe A. -

I just finished building a rather large helix, as Tom mentioned above. Mine took quite a while to build (better part of a year), but that's because of the sheer size, not the complexity. I didn't worry about smooth edge cuts - Drew the curves with a long trammel (radius bar), then just used a jig saw to cut them out. Edges are a bit ragged, but so what? They won't be visible in the end anyway.

I suspended my helix from a frame tied to the ceiling using threaded rod. This made adjusting the grade and removing un-evenness in the roadbed a snap. If you can't attach the suspension frame to the ceiling, you can build a floor support for the suspension frame, and still hang the helix. It gets a bit more complicated, but not much.

I used a 36" radius for my inside track, with each track outwards 2" larger. I also elongated the helix by adding 24" parallel straight sections every 180 degrees (essentially splitting the circle and pulling it two feet apart, then connecting the ends with straight track). The large radius and straights were done to reduce the grade - the inside track grade is 1 3/4 percent. My steamers can haul a decent sized train up the helix. The larger the radius, the less the chances of "stringlinging" the train (pulling the cars off the track towards the center of the curve).

Some folks look down on a helix for one main reason - it puts the trains out of view for a relatively long time. That's a very valid perspective, but in my case it was more than offset by the ability it gave me to model more towns on my layout, while keeping the "one track on the prarie" feel and some of the scenic elements that were so important to me.

For more details on how I built my helix, see my helix page on my website:

http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.com/CM%20-%20Behemoth%20Helix.htm

[SpaceMouse]

Back when my layout was being built for the kids, I designed a helix that took the trains from the lower level up to Hogwarts Castle and the upper section of the layout. IT was elongated like Mark B.'s but at each level  the straight was shortened a little.  The helix became part of the scenery, a mountain  with each loop coming out of a tunnel so that the train would appear for a short while, disappear, then appear on the next level , etc up to the Castle.

It would give a fairy-tale like appearance to the climb. I would really have liked to built it.

[joecool1212]

Brunton,  I think I can hang this from the ceiling.  Im planning it now.  I saw some good pictures using threaded rod and I think that is the way to go also.  I can get 30 radius and it will be a single track helix so hopefully it wont be as difficult to buils and lay track on.  The main reason Im using a helix is I have a shelf layout around the wall that im planning to build, but it is high enough to clear the 2 doorways and 6 windows in my playroom.  I dont have enough run on any wall to go up that high, so the only solution is a helix.  I dont mind the train out of sight for any period of time and its the only it will work anyway.  Joe A.

[joecool1212]

Ok now for the next question, How about the grade in the helix.  Anyone have a suggestion on grade.  I was thinking about 3% because it works easly.  Joe

[pcarrell]

3% is pretty steep.  Keep in mind that the grade will be made tougher because it's on a curve.  There is a thread on this very issue right here:  http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1014613/ShowPost.aspx