question about Red Caboose Drop Bottom Gondolas (something of a weighty issue)

[marknewton]

Shilshole wrote:

<"The "target market" appears to have been modelers seeking a challenge and prototype fidelity above the level offered by shake-the-box kits.">

Absolutely. I live in Australia, and have never been to a RPM meeting in my life - but all of my plastic rolling stock kits are from manufacturers like Red Caboose, Intermountain, Branchline, Tichy, P2K and the like. About the only shake the box kits I think are worth having are some of the Accurail offerings.

I reject the idea that highly detailed kits are only for display, not operation. Not only do my freight cars earn their keep on my home layout, they get packed up and taken to exhibitions - with no worries!

Cheers,

Mark.

[Shilshole]

By the way one reason why Red Caboose might leave out the weight, in addition to shipping costs, is that if the weight gets loose in box it can cause damage to delicate parts.

It's attached to the bottom of the box with strapping tape.  The instruction sheets are wedged into the box on top of the weight and held down by the box top, and the parts sit on the instructions.  No way for the weight to damage small parts.

Also lots of their target market build kits without weights because they are solely intended to show at these prototype modeler meets, not actually run on a layout (where the many delicate after market parts they add would fall off).

"lots"?  Maybe one 1 in 500 modelers, and those few buy and run, with weights, many more than they upgrade and show at RPM meets.

The "target market" appears to have been modelers seeking a challenge and prototype fidelity above the level offered by shake-the-box kits.

Having the weight might cost them brownie points at these meets, which are in theory not "competitive" but in actuality are extremely so.  It's like high school popularity all over again!

You're kidding, right?

[pike-62]

One thing I've discovered in dealing with the more delicate castings on sprues is to make select cuts in the main body of the sprue itself.  This reduces the pressure later on when using cutters or blades to free up the castings. 

Mark Gosdin

I also do the same. I will cut away as much of the sprue around the part as I can so when I cut the part out I am actually just removing the gates from the part itself. I learned this trick when I put together my first Proto 2000 kit.

Dan Pikulski

www.DansResinCasting.com

[dknelson]

 I used sheet lead in the gondolas;  it was just the right thickness for the space meant for the steel weight. 

Wayne

When using sheet lead take health precautions.  Wash your hands thoroughly after touching the lead.  I generally seal the lead thoroughly in multiple coats of acrylic paints so that in the future when i touch the car I won't touch the bare lead. 

Several model railroaders have suffered brain damage from handling too much lead and switched to slot cars.  Don't let this happen to you.

The Adair weights are in the Walthers catalog and make a good choice.  I think they are a safe material, too.

By the way one reason why Red Caboose might leave out the weight, in addition to shipping costs, is that if the weight gets loose in box it can cause damage to delicate parts.  I have seen this happen with other makes of kits where the weight was not properly secured.  Also lots of their target market build kits without weights because they are solely intended to show at these prototype modeler meets, not actually run on a layout (where the many delicate after market parts they add would fall off).   Having the weight might cost them brownie points at these meets, which are in theory not "competitive" but in actuality are extremely so.  It's like high school popularity all over again!

Dave Nelson

[kog1027]

I also find kits to be very theraputic. 

It's no suprise that manufacturers in the Model Railroad hobby are subject to very real cost-cutting pressures.  Leaving out the weight is a relatively benign way of reacting to those pressues.

One thing I've discovered in dealing with the more delicate castings on sprues is to make select cuts in the main body of the sprue itself.  This reduces the pressure later on when using cutters or blades to free up the castings. 

Since I started doing the sprue cuts I've had no breaks in any delicate parts.

I like my RTR cars, but I get an extra measure of enjoyment from my kits.

Mark Gosdin

[pike-62]

some interesting comments here. Again, I was not trying to bash Red Caboose as I do like assembling kits, in fact, I find it kind of relaxing. As I did start this kit the other night, and it is my first one, I do have some observations. I do like that the instructions include a schematic of the part placement on the trees (sprues). This makes locating parts much easier. The instructions could be a bit better in regards to the placement of some of the parts. It took me a while to figure out how the long bars fit into the bottom of the gon.  A sharp single edge razor is a must to get the brake rigging off of the trees. I could not get my nippers in to cut these with out bending the parts and experience tells me I would have broken the parts if I used them. I also found that I need to drill out the grab iron holes. This is a common practice of mine anyway on any kit I build. As an experienced kit builder and scratch builder I am estimating the time I can complete this kit will be closer to 4 hours actual time. Being this is my first kit I am sure I could get the time down to 2 hours or less on any subsequent kit. The weight issue was just something of a small surprise. I would figure that a kit that is retailing in the $20.00 range would have the weight included. Every kit I ever purchased before has always had a weight that was included and packaged in a way that did not hurt the kit. I did find in the kit a sheet explaining how to order the weight (for a cost + shipping). Fortunatly I have access to material that I can use for a weight if I ever decide to run this car on my layout.

 

Dan Pikulski

www.DansResinCasting.com

[Shilshole]

Mike,
I wouldn't expect anyone assembling his/her first RC kit to complete it in two hours;  with some experience, slight improvements to the kit's instructions, and the right tools, two hours is leisurely.  But I don't consider it a race against the clock.  I did find Gould kits to be a welcome relief from the demands of grad school.

Yes, the market's changed, and the result is shops that don't carry any craftsman kits.  None.  The story I got from a formerly well-stocked shop was that people weren't buying them (I guess I and others who bought them no longer qualify as people?), so they didn't order them from Walthers/Horizon, so Walthers/Horizon didn't order them from RC, so RC quit offering them.  Somewhere along the line, someone ignored the fact that if kits aren't offered, either by the manufacturer, distributor, or retail outlet, of course people won't buy them -- they can't buy them if they're unavailable, even undecs.  It's not a case of finding time to build everything.  It's more like finding any reasonably priced quality rolling stock to build, even with unlimited time.  Fortunately, Branchline hasn't swallowed the Kool-ade yet.

Designing separate packaging is a red herring, although I'm sure the bean counters can cite some numbers in their favor.  Tichy/CMA has no problem with it:  order one of a kit, you get it in the standard box; order several of the same kit, you get them in one big box, plus a discount.  And the parts don't have to go to China and back.

Now, back to the brake gear on Westerfield's GN SS boxcar...

[Shilshole]

Beneath a false bottom -- the doors are cast into the bottom of the body and the top of the false bottom.   Not like the old Detail Associates kits, in which the doors could be modeled open.

[mlehman]

Hi Simon,
That's the spirit. Didn't mean to shame you, though, just inspire.


Shilshole,
Well I have a few kits, probably enough to keep me going until I'm so old I can only work on LGB-sized stuff. Actually, I've got a fairly extensive layout under construction, made a career change that sent me to grad school and now find very little time to build things up -- and a great need to see the trains go round to kill the stress.

I agree that a RC boxcar kit is a straightforward thing. I've haven't tried building up any of my RC GS gon kits, but they have a bit more fiddly stuff to them. Let's see what Dan says when he gets done with his, but I suspect you're being a bit optimistic with a 2 hour estimate on those.

As I noted, I like kits. But it's also a fact that fewer people find the time, even when it suits them, to build everything. There's so much else to do on a layout that you're just not going to get RTR. Everyone has their own balance with this, but it's also obvious that the market is changing. I think the figure I heard quoted was that for some runs, RC gets less than a dozen kit orders. This will certainly make a manufacturer think twice about this angle of the biz, when they are selling 100s of RTR. I, too, hope the kit reimains available as an option, but we also have to be realistic about the bottom line with numbers like that. If it's an existing kit that only requires printing new labels, OK. But for a manufacturer who develops a new product, it does make you think twice before even bothering to sink the money into designing separate packaging for kits.

Texas Zepher,
Basically, the GS gon has a false floor that conceals a slot to hide the weight in. If one was going to use cast loads, like Dan is working on, then the weight may not even be necessary. The weight does make my many empty GS gons feel hefty and run reliably.

[Texas Zepher]

I've read this thread with interest as I've been considering purchasing some of these gondolas.  However, I don't understand where the weight would go in a drop bottom gondola.

[Shilshole]

BTW, RC kit orders have fallen off to the point where many runs now face the possibility of being only available RTR. This doesn't bother me.

Oh, well, as long as you got yours...

I have RC kits I still haven't built and find a way to buy the new RTR stuff I need. Time is money and even those of us who like to build kits don't have enough time to build all we need for the roster.

So, you speak for all of us who like to build kits?

Actually, it takes less than two hours to assemble a RC (or IM, or P2K, or Branchline) kit, including doing the brake rigging closer to protototype with wire and chain, adding scale-width draft gear and couplers, and adding correct reweigh stencils that the RTRs lack.  Now, I can see where time might be a factor if you need 40 or so gons for the beet campagn -- but if that's the case, why not just use Athearn?

Are you sure you like to build kits?

So those who find a need to bash them for an at best minor issue will can soon complain about not being able to get a kit at all.

"Soon"?  Where ya been?  Ever tried to pry an underframe off a RTR covered hopper to install Proto Accumates?  Yep, that's a minor issue.

[simon1966]

It does sound a bit pathetic really I know, but I don't happen to have anything suitable around for the weight.  Since I have more un-built P2K and Branchline kits on my shelf than I will probably ever build it was just as easy to put the RC kit back in the box and move on to another kit that had everything in it.  I am totally anti R-to-R rolling stock and love to try my hand a wooden structures and scratch building so the lack of a weight should not really de-rail me.  I guess I was a bit annoyed at having to purchase the thing and then open the box to find that the weight was missing.  You may have shamed me into getting them out again

[mlehman]

I am a big fan of RC and am looking forward to Dan producing some of these loads.

As for no weight being included, several people have metioned shipping costs. This probably has some relevance. In terms of cost avoidance due to tranportation expenses, leaving out the weight also solves something that probably costs more -- damage to the kit parts. Manufacturers that include weights usually have some way of dealing with preventing damage from some gorilla slamming the kit around on the way to you.

I used to be one of those guys. I know what can happen anytime you get your kit near some truckers and warehouse guys.


None of the methods of protecting the delicate bits from the weights are perfect. All of them cost money in order to add protection to the kit parts. And few of the manufacturers who do so have as delicate as parts as a RC kits do. RC would likely have to ship far more "make-up" parts due to in-transit damage if they included weights. I bet they save a bundle there, whihc means that they can put more such resources into their excellent customer service if you need a part because you broke it yoruself.

Anotehr factor is that the best weight is lead. Manufacturers don't like to deal with that for obvious regulatory reasons. But a creative modeler may throw a steel weight away and use lead for optimal weight in an otherwise empty car. So putting in a weight may just be a waste of money for some.

BTW, RC kit orders have fallen off to the point where many runs now face the possibility of being only available RTR. This doesn't bother me. I have RC kits I still haven't built and find a way to buy the new RTR stuff I need. Time is money and even those of us who like to build kits don't have enough time to build all we need for the roster. So those who find a need to bash them for an at best minor issue will can soon complain about not being able to get a kit at all.

But how serious were you about building any kit, if they give you everything but the weight and you're defeated by that? Heck, I can remember when many kits required paint and decals to complete. Some still do and are well worth building -- and finding weighst for. Ya' never had it so good, actually.

[marknewton]

simon1966 wrote:

<"I got a pair of Red Caboose Gondolas about 18 months ago and had the same experience...The kits remains un-built and I have never looked at another Red Caboose product again.">

Simon, I don't understand. Why not simply provide your own weight? I've built many a Red Caboose, kit, and the lack of weight has never bothered me - I just make my own. Depending on the car and what I've had available, I've used offcuts of sheet steel, fishing sinkers, scrap nuts, lead shot, and even the rollers from scrapped bearings.

Cheers,

Mark.

[doctorwayne]

I enjoy building the Red Caboose kits, although they are a bit pricey.  I usually wait until I can find them marked down, usually because the roadnames aren't all that popular around here.  I picked up 5 undecorated X-29 boxcars and 6 undecorated  gondolas, at different stores, for less than $10.00 apiece.  I had a lot of fun building them, replacing the steps and grabs with metal parts, and painting them.  I used sheet lead in the gondolas;  it was just the right thickness for the space meant for the steel weight.  I sold four of the gondolas, which paid for all seven kits, plus a bit extra for me!

 

Wayne

[Anonymous]

It's not a big problem once you've remembered buying a bag of (slightly less diameter than) 1" nuts at the hardware store. I glue two of them in my red caboose and IMRC boxcar kits. Went to great lengths to ensure they are _exactly_ in the middle. Now they weigh  about 110 grams, plenty.

I'm still looking for another large bunch of these kits in suitable roadnames on ebay, I find building them very relaxing and rewarding.

good luck,
Rik

ps as to the screws for the trucks, they are a bit difficult to get them in straight down. I rather do this _before_ assembling hte rest of the car as you do need to exert some force. Then take them out again. When the car is all ready, the screws will go in easily.

[simon1966]

I got a pair of Red Caboose Gondolas about 18 months ago and had the same experience.  Some blub in the box going on about the increases in cost for the weight and their decision not to include them.  The kits remains un-built and I have never looked at another Red Caboose product again.

[NeO6874]

I'd be willing to bet that they don't include weight to help cut down on shipping costs - both from the factory to the distribution center (if there is one, or just LHSs) and from said distribution center to the buyer...

[jrbernier]

  I bought a RTR Red Caboose GS gondola and there was no weight in it either.  After checking other Red Caboose GS cars(RTR and kit), I found that no weight was included.  A real pain when the car was already assembled............

Jim

[ProtoWeathering]

InterMountain kits don't come with a weight either. Most "high end" kits don't. The first time you buy a Resin kit, you'll find that most don't even come with trucks or couplers, never mind the weight.

[tstage]

Dan,

That seems kinda strange and is disappointing to here.  All of the kits that I have and have put together have always supplied the weight with the car.  If guess if you didn't get the separate weight from RC, you could always purchase lead weights separately and place them (if they fit) in the pocket as a quick fix.

Tom

[pike-62]

Hi All

My first ever Red Caboose kit came in the mail yesterday. The only reason I purchased this kit is to properly size coal loads as I have had customers asking for them. Anyway, I decided to put this kit together to see what it is like. As I was puting it together I noticed that there is a pocket for a steel weight, but there is no weight. I see there is a note in the kit that you can purchase one for a price from them. I don't understand why they don't include it in the kit. For the price that the kits cost and the cost of the material I would think it would be included. Just a small rant and not intending for this to become a bashing thread.

 

Dan Pikulski

www.DansResinCasting.com