Fakes: my bete noire

[dknelson]

Caveat emptor. There is no sneaky seller who can defeat an informed buyer.

Dave Nelson

[FJ and G]

My guess is that people who desire authentic trains (modeled after the prototype) are RAILFANS who "model trains." Those who don't care (would run a warbonnet GG-1) PLAY with trains (as opposed to modeling them). A model, by definition, is a representation of the real thing.

Nothing wrong with modeling trains or merely playing with trains. To each his own. My main criticism is with the labeling of the product.

[GerFust]

My frustration was in trying to learn more about an old model I have that I couldn't identify a prototype for. The first thing I did was to check the Rock Island historic roster to see what it was. The roster reported that number assigned to an engine that it clearly wasn't. Eventually through looking a many, many, many photos I was able to identify it as either an Alco C424 or C426. Their application of the wrong paint scheme, engine number, and road name (Rock Island never had C424s) caused simple research to be much more time intensive.

[Anonymous]

I'm one of those who isn't overly concerned about fakes. I can live with them. Perhaps that's because I'm also a toy train guy. My advice to those who are opposed to them is simple: if you don't like them, don't buy them. Not all trains have to be perfect scale models, some are just for fun. We all have our own tastes. I would question the Santa fe GG1, but when I think about it, I guess one would kind of look sharp. I'd muvh sooner buy a Pennsy one, though!

Some other examples that I can add to this list are foreign trains in North American paint schemes. Model Power makes a 2-6-0 that is actually a German class 24 steamer that's had it's elephant ears (smoke deflectors) and buffers removed. It's paired with a North American style tender that's available in several roadnames. In the past, Model Power has made Japanese Shinkansen train sets in Amtrak and Santa Fe paint schemes.

[Anonymous]

I'd be inclined to agree that "fake" liveries can be a nuisance to those just starting out in the hobby, but some of them are very convincing - look at some of the Athearn "John Deere" range - I've had a look at a couple of boxcars and a flatcar with a pair of tractors loaded, and I thought they were very believeable.

[Anonymous]

In this age of near porn, violence for the sake of violence on our tv , movies and computer games and the shrinking of our industries , families and moral fiber there is nothing in the world as harmless as a little model train. So what if it is incorrect. Serious prototype modelers should hit the books and research every aspect of their railroad world. To me that is part of the fun, overcoming the passage of time and mistakes made by model companies. To others just seeing their favorite roadname on a coffee cup or a box car made 20 years after their line mergerd into another makes them happy. There is nothing wrong with that. You say they never made that , wrong your holding it in your hands. Do'nt forget model trains are trains too.

[dehusman]

A lot of it depends on how far off it is.

A modern BNSF paint scheme on a poorly executed 40' composite boxcar is pretty flagrant, while putting a steam era NYC/RDG/CNJ scheme on a well done PRR X-29 boxcar falls into the "close enough" realm. While those roads didn't use the X-29 they did have USRA boxcars that were similar in outward appearance. Now the rivet counters will be screaming that they didn't look anything alike, rivet patterns, underframe design, yadda, yadda. But from across the room they are certainly close enough to stand in for a USRA car.

Then you get into the variations of execution. Which is worse, a well done paint scheme on an inaccurate car (for example a PRR X-29 car with a paint scheme and lettering that is accurate for a USRA style car) or a poorly executed paint scheme on the correct car (for example a NYC USRA car with the wrong lettering style, the herald too big and the paint a couple shades too dark). For my money the quality paint scheme on a close car beats the poor paint scheme on an accurate car.

YMMV

[CP5415]

I understand your point, but what about all the people who don't have the time to sit & custom paint locomotives or rolling stock?
I don't!
If I see something that I like, I'll buy it no matter if it's prototypical or not. Because that's what I want. True, some manufacturers go a bit over board with somethings but these are usually the low end manufacturers arn't they? But then again, I'm not buying from Model Power or Bachman.

Just my 2 cents

Gordon

[cacole]

Anyone with any modicum of sense who models the Santa Fe should know that they never did own any GG-1s, because the Santa Fe did not have any electrified track.

[leighant]

I don't care for Santa Fe warbonnet GG-1 electrics but maybe I'm just being picky.

[dehusman]

Actually I have pictures of prototype steam tenders lettered for the Penn Central by the Penn Central for use on the Penn Central.

To a certain extent I think its a matter that if you buy a Reading PS-1 boxcar and don't know that RDG didn't have any PS-1's, it probably wouldn't matter to you that its a fake scheme. If you know enough to know its a fake scheme, then you probably would care that its a fake scheme and not buy the car.

[cacole]

I saw an article a few years ago that over half of the model RR items that are decorated for Santa Fe, that railroad never did own. Manufacturers decorate practically everything for the Santa Fe because it is the best selling road name, especially in the War Bonnet scheme. Personally, I'm not the rivet counter type and don't care whether or not the Illinois Central, or any other road, really had a particular locomotive or rolling stock item that I own -- I'm just glad that someone is making it available. To me, model railroading is supposed to be fun, not a continual challenge to be as accurate as possible by super-detailing everything, down to the last rivet. During open houses at the Cochise & Western Model Railroad Club, if someone makes a comment to me that something I'm running isn't "authentic," I tell them we're running a free-lanced railroad, and if they don't like that, we don't need people like them in the club, anyway. I hate nit-pickers who seem determined to take the fun out of model railroading with their constant criticism. We removed one club member who got out of hand with his criticism of how the layout was being built.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

emeraldisle,

Agree and understand why they try to recoup cost. However, the disclaimer should be made regardless. I seriously doubt if model airplane or car enthusiasts would appreciate branding an Edsel as a Chevy or an F/A-18 Hornet with Air Force insignia.

But those examples are common knowledge things that everyone knows, including my grandma. Some of the railroad triva is pretty obscure, like warbonnet paint on a loco that never had it. Model car and plane companies make plenty of errors too, they are just posted in a forum for model cars and planes buffs and we never hear of them. A real good example of this was the early F-117 stealth fighter which is way off, it doen't even resemble a F-117 from across the room. Also, a Romulan Warbird model is bigger than the Enterprise C, but in real life is way smaller. FRED

[FJ and G]

emeraldisle,

Agree and understand why they try to recoup cost. However, the disclaimer should be made regardless. I seriously doubt if model airplane or car enthusiasts would appreciate branding an Edsel as a Chevy or an F/A-18 Hornet with Air Force insignia.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flyingscot

Penn Central steam engines!?!!? Steam engines in warbonnet paint scheme!?!?! what's comming next? a BNSF 4-4-0??

You just never know! Really though, most companies that have to do this are just trying to recover the up front cost which can run as high as $250,000 or more just for the molds. I spoke to LIFELIKE about this once and was amazed at how much it takes to bring a new loco to the market, even in todays computerized enviorment.[:)][:)]

[Anonymous]

Penn Central steam engines!?!!? Steam engines in warbonnet paint scheme!?!?! what's comming next? a BNSF 4-4-0??

[Anonymous]

I suppose you're right; companies could add a disclaimer and add something like XYZ Ry didn't have a box car exactly like this one and 54 other railroads had box cars similar to this one. The point is that when I first got into the hobby I was happy to get anything that had my favorite prototypes paint scheme. As the years (decades) have flown by I'm more selective in what I buy only because I have more knowledge of what my favorite RR actually did own. That quest for knowledge is just one of literally dozens of facets that make modelrailroading so much fun. That being said, I have never repainted any of the "incorrect" items because they still "look" good and until it gets to the point where I just can't stand it anymore I probably never will repaint them. I have painted "incorrect" rolling stock in my prototypes colors because although not exact replicas they are "close" enough for me. Just enjoy the hobby and if you don't like what's not prototypical for your railroad then repaint what you have to a correct scheme or swap it for something else because eventually you will acquire enough of what is "right". Finally, there is just so much more out there today than there was 30 years ago that sometimes I almost have to do a doubletake when I see something advertised for my prototype that never in my life did i ever think I would see it but now here it is. What a great hobby!

[FJ and G]

CB&Q Guy,

Shame!

But the most flagrant and notorious example is the HO steam locomotive. The road name?

Penn Central!

Is death by firing squad appropriate for the designer of this monstrosity? A sledge hammer to these little locomotive beasts, I say!

[CBQ_Guy]

Originally posted by FJ and G

I promise to try and not grumble too much on this forum.
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Try <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Railroad_Modeling_Still_Makes_Me_Grumpy/?yguid=154581698>
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There's only one big gripe that I have in the world of model railroads and I need to say this to get it off my chest:

Producing locomotives or rolling stock with paint schemes or railroad companies that never had them. I guess you also could include such things as totally incorrect tenders and other parts.
. . .
Con-cor did this recently in N or HO.
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They also did this a few years back with their CB&Q blackbird scheme MP 15 switcher which didn't come out on the prototype until sometime in the 1970's, IIRC. CB&Q ceased to exist on March 1, 1970. Shame, shame!

"Paul [Kossart] - The CB&Q Guy" [In Illinois] ~ Modeling the CB&Q and its fictional 'Illiniwek River-Subdivision-Branch Line' in the 1960's. ~

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