Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
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rrinker wrote: I do so love the overkill. A 3 amp DCC system is PLENTY to run 2-3 sound locos at the same time! Look at the stall current in the various reviews - BLI locos with QSI sound draw less than 3/4 of an amp stalled. People tend to underestimate how fast their models are traveling. You get a train going what looks like a nice slow speed - it's really 40-50 smph! 10-20 smph is really a crawl. I'd be curious as to the actual output voltage from the Prodigy - voltage on the track. Bet it's up there, closer to 20v than 15v. The NCE should be in the 14-15v range - which is what HO track voltage should be. This will make a huge difference in top speed. Try timing the train over a measured section. Measure a 1 foot section. Count how many seconds it takes the train to pass that distance. 1s is about 60mph, 2s is about 30mph. Bet you'll be surprised how fast you are really going. --Randy
Randy,
I put a bridge rectifier and DC meter on my PA today. The meter read 13.25 volts with one engine running at 30 Smph (Roundhouse 4-4-0 w/sound), 2 old converted engines with just lights on, and 2 P2k 0-6-0's sitting on the tracks (lights on low and sound on). I did not break the circuit and stick an AC amp meter in the line. The PA power pack label says 15V/3A and MRC list the system at 3.5 amps for use. The cords on the PA do not allow access to measure voltage on the power pack, and I do not have in-line adapters that will let me measure the pack directly. I am not going to lug a 'scope into the layout room for a better measurement.
I hope this helps.
Consider my Tech 4 Analog Powerpack. I think it is a model 220.
It is rated at 1.6 amps output. I can feed two Broadway Limited F units and have the video to prove it.
But I will not dare try to run 4 off this throttle. If I want to play with the big boys gotta break out the big Chief. 5 amps is plenty. But since I already spent several hundred dollars let's toss another 30 dollars for 8 amps to be real sure and never worry about capacity again in any scale.
Overkill? I think not. I recall some of the standard gauge engines that literally were a draw on the house electrical system when they first start up. Boy were they awesome, no rinky-dink trainset power pack for them neither. Ye betcha.
Years ago as a child I had a rinky-dink power pack that was not able to feed a pittman-motor equippted Life Like engine on a 4 foot loop of track at full speed. The resulting top speed was half of what the engine can do.
Highballing has it's place but if you aint got the horses to get up and go.. something is the matter with them oats and hay.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Well, I admit, I didnt get out the tape measure and check the speed. All though, I am afraid to do that as it might depress me. I have 2 QSI eqipped engines that will tell me my "scale speed" with a function key. My Atlas GE B-27 will only get to 37 SMPH. That is no load and full throttle. Some of the other engines wont even budge until I hit 40% throttle.... which plays holy heck if you have momentum set .
I am starting to wonder if I just have to live with it. I am assuming everyone else has the same issue I just happen to notice it.
Joe F., thanks for the input on the MR&T. Thats good to know.
Best Regards, Big John
Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway
As a ProCab owner, I would recomend that you call the guys at NCE. They are very nice and helpful.
To me it sounds like the output voltage may be incorrectly set. I believe that's something that can be adjusted.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
claycts wrote: Safety Valve, remember that is a private/Club railroad. It is in my house but the club comes over and helps build and run it. When I am running it is just 2 or sometimes three units and that is it. When you get 8 to 10 operators it does get a little more crowded. I just would rather have more than not enough so the KIDS (Youngest is 58) can play in piece. That ramp meter is a good value once you understand and use it.
Safety Valve, remember that is a private/Club railroad. It is in my house but the club comes over and helps build and run it. When I am running it is just 2 or sometimes three units and that is it. When you get 8 to 10 operators it does get a little more crowded.
I just would rather have more than not enough so the KIDS (Youngest is 58) can play in piece. That ramp meter is a good value once you understand and use it.
Thanks for the clarification, I was wondering.
I think one can never be too old to be a KID. =)
Cheers.
claycts wrote: May I please suggest that you get a RAMP Meter from Tony's and put it between your supply and the tracks. This will tell you exactley where you are at and will tell you if you have a problem with a loco. I have one on every booster and it is realy interesting to see 6 units with the same rating puting out from 13.1 to 14.8 volts. They are all 5 amp units with the exact same size and brand power supply (all Digitrax).The best thing with this meter is you can use it to fine tune your loco's as far as "HOW HARD ARE THEY WORKING" the meter will show the amp draw as you ADD cars to a train. If I had this meter I would have saved $200.00 by knowing that I did not need booster #6. Yes the rule of thumb is 1 amp per loco But what do you do with 25 in one area, yard and terminal with as high has 10 in motion at once. The meter showed a draw of 3.4 amps with 12 in motion. Only need a Single 5 amp district not (2) 5amp districts in that area. Before somone jumps me. Yes I understand that a PSfour breaker on a 5 amp booster is STILL 5 amps not (4x5=20amps)
May I please suggest that you get a RAMP Meter from Tony's and put it between your supply and the tracks. This will tell you exactley where you are at and will tell you if you have a problem with a loco. I have one on every booster and it is realy interesting to see 6 units with the same rating puting out from 13.1 to 14.8 volts. They are all 5 amp units with the exact same size and brand power supply (all Digitrax).The best thing with this meter is you can use it to fine tune your loco's as far as "HOW HARD ARE THEY WORKING" the meter will show the amp draw as you ADD cars to a train.
If I had this meter I would have saved $200.00 by knowing that I did not need booster #6. Yes the rule of thumb is 1 amp per loco But what do you do with 25 in one area, yard and terminal with as high has 10 in motion at once. The meter showed a draw of 3.4 amps with 12 in motion. Only need a Single 5 amp district not (2) 5amp districts in that area.
Before somone jumps me. Yes I understand that a PSfour breaker on a 5 amp booster is STILL 5 amps not (4x5=20amps)
That is alot of engines and I thought my Broadway Limited ABBA Consist in the B&O were hungry children.
ALL DUAL MODE (DCC - DC) engines with SOUND - such asQSI - take 5 - 6 Volts to start when on DC. That powers the sound. THEN it starts to move.
Any 3 Amp power supply will lose voltage when it hits 3 Amps. A 42 VA (3X14) is needed, and most low cost equipment fudges on their 'specs'."3 amps and 14 volts" - (but not 3 amps @ 14 volts).
Since most SOUND units use 1 amp each, I suspect your booster is being taxed to it's capacity. Buy a set of meters and you'll see.
Then try a 5 AMP booster..
canazar wrote: Tilden, Yoru right. I did look up the top voltage and the setting listed it at 255. Well, it is all ready there. Adding a booster only increases the amps right? Does nothing about the voltage? Are all DCC systems putting out the same amount of volts?
Tilden,
Yoru right. I did look up the top voltage and the setting listed it at 255. Well, it is all ready there.
Adding a booster only increases the amps right? Does nothing about the voltage? Are all DCC systems putting out the same amount of volts?
No.
Now, Be very careful. Im not a trained professional but I have been educated rather narrowly with my 8 amp Digitrax Super Chief that also has a 20 amp power supply behind it. I was told that I need to use 14 AWG wire for the main power and very short lengths of 20 AWG. (No more than a few inches off the main wire bus) The ampheres is powerful enough to cause fires and other problems should there be a short on the track, overheated wiring or other problems.
Voltage I think is around 16 or so on the track I have to go back and check.
Others will help you with your specific system and expound further on your question much better than I can.
In trucking as long as I had the needed Voltage and enough Amps to feed all of the electrical systems on board the 18 wheeler I knew I was doing well. If I lost voltage I cannot shine the lights very well or run the truck very well after the batteries give out. Current is provided during engine start in massive amounts that needs proper batteries to do the job at the required levels. If the alternator wore out I cannot generate sufficent amps to support the voltage.
Now that I totally confused you, I'll hide under my rock against the torch bearing vikings who can explain it to you better =)
In the old O scale trainset I think our engine would slow down at the furthest part of the loop away from the transformer and speed up when it finally started to get closer to the transformer.
I dont know if this is true in a DCC system.
canazar wrote: Cacole. Ah, good thoughts on the different DCC systems. I never thought of that. I think I do have to have to get a bigger power supply, but what has me confused, is they run the same if I have 1 engine going, or 3. Also, my Atlas, my QSI engines, my Atheran with Digitraxx and NCE decoders... all run slower. And, I dont think it is the wiring since it is the same when I had my Prodigy in control. With that system, I never dreamed of putting full power to the track. I run 50-70% power with the NCE when I used to run 20-30% power on the Prodigy. Has me
Cacole.
Ah, good thoughts on the different DCC systems. I never thought of that.
I think I do have to have to get a bigger power supply, but what has me confused, is they run the same if I have 1 engine going, or 3. Also, my Atlas, my QSI engines, my Atheran with Digitraxx and NCE decoders... all run slower. And, I dont think it is the wiring since it is the same when I had my Prodigy in control. With that system, I never dreamed of putting full power to the track. I run 50-70% power with the NCE when I used to run 20-30% power on the Prodigy. Has me
Contact NCE. You just documented that the NCE is much slower than the Prodigy system that you disconnected; it is not the layout or engines or decoders in the engines.
Based on my experience, all locomotives run slower on DCC than DC control -- and they are actually running at a more prototypcal speed with DCC. But Broadway Limited seem to run slower than other brands. Maybe it's the QSI sound decoder that causes this more than any other factor.
And yes, an extra booster just adds more Amperage output, not more Voltage. But low Amperage can cause slow running (and overheating) because the system is overloaded. Your buss wiring may not be of sufficient gauge to handle the Amperage. I use heavy, stranded speaker wire purchased from Wal-mart or similar sources for my buss wiring. An insuffient number feeder wires can also cause loss of power. I try to have a feeder at least every 6 feet, or every other flex track joint.
.
According to Digitrax, the CV for top speed can only make the loco go slower, it cannot speed it up. Re-motoring/gearing the loco may be the only solution.
Tilden
The reviews are written by different people, and I think they do the testing on their individual home layouts so there is probably a variety of different DCC systems in use.
For the problems you are having, a couple of suggestions:
1. Get a more powerful power supply if you have only 3 Amps or less. Slow running indicates low power output from your DCC system.
2. Reset the VMAX, CV-05, in the decoder and see if it runs faster. The default possibly depends on the decoder manufacturer and version. The Digitrax Mobile Decoder Manual for year 2000, for example, indicates that Digitrax decoders have a default value of 00 (Max); but they don't say to what range of values it can be reset.
I was wondering if anyone knows what DCC system they use when they there testing for the reveiws?
The reason I am asking is I have a NCE Power Cab, and for what ever reason, I cant get get squat for top speed out of it. I find myself running some of my engines at "full throttle" and even then, I am only getting 35-40 scale MPH. I am trying to do some compairsons on mine to see if I can fix this or I am stuck. Thanks