Nfmisso, I as well think that is a factor. Now have 52 VA with a MRC 2600 and old Bues run much better but I know there are other factors that are coming to play.
First is the old Blues are running there stock Steel wheels, nickel ones should help a lot. Bus wires? Guessing they are the wires that go to the track. Some are only 26 gauge. Terminal strip for the feeders are not in the center of the board, some bus wires have a 15 to 20 foot run. Finaly what is propley hurting the most is the way the thottle is wired. Have the MRC 2600 sitting on the desk, then a wire to the celing then 3 foot and then down to the power strips that power the feeders. That is a 20 foot run and only 26 gauge.
I know better but never thought I would get this far into the hobby. Worst part is being a Audiophile, I know the power drop that small wires can cause. My stereo jumpers wires are gold plated pins and silver wires. Speakers wires are Monster Cable at 5 gauge. Yes, you can beat someone to death with them.
When I bulid the new bench, these short comings will be taken care of.
More power has helped, still need a lot of thottle, I am at 80% and running doulded headed SPD's on the B line and a Super weight on the A line. Running a round 50 sMPH, crank it to 100% and they cook at around 85 sMPH.
Oh, the weighted SPD has power to the point it can spin the wheels, I did drop the train to 40 cars but doubled head they would pull 50 cars. At 50 the led engine was spinng the wheels. Why kill the old engine.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Virginian wrote: <snip> Therefore, my point is, that if cuda is running locos and they are just crawling as he adds a load, I think there is a very good chance something is wrong. I would definitely get an ammeter and see what the heck is going on. <snip>
<snip>
Therefore, my point is, that if cuda is running locos and they are just crawling as he adds a load, I think there is a very good chance something is wrong. I would definitely get an ammeter and see what the heck is going on.
The issue sounds suspiciously like inadequate feeder and bus wires between the track and the power supply.
Way back when I was in college, the club layout had telephone wire (of all things !!) for the track wiring, no bus. Single or Double headed Mantua steam would stall on a grade with a heavy train, at full power (15V), drawing 1.5 amps; which indicated that the resistance in the wiring was the current limiter of the system.
Ken,
One issue that hasn't been raised is lubrication. If the locos still have a nice flywheel effect and coast well, then they're probably not dry. But dry motor, worm, or axle bearings or gearing will increase friction & current draw. I use Archer (Radio Shack) Teflon Lube Gel on the gearing. I swear by the stuff. I think it's Super Lube in a thickened form. Labelle sells a teflon grease as well, but at RS you get a large 3 0z. tube for about 3 bucks. If I buy an old Rivarossi steamer, for example, I strip out all of the old grease and replace it with this stuff and teflon oil. The old Berkshires and articulateds had a high pitch set of worms, so when I'm done I can disconnect the motor shaft and have the wheels drive the gearing. It's that slick.
Another issue is too much lubrication, or oil in the motor brushes. It turns to tar on the commutator. In your photo the commutator looks nice & polished, so I doubt it's an issue, but when it is I just drop the brushes in Gumout or a similar solvent for a while, then let them dry. Pulls the oil right out of them.
Just a few thoughts. Oh, and as far as the VW topic is concerned, this guy has all of you beat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7czNQlusss0
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
Ken,This may not be a acceptable answer but,my thoughts would be to repower those units with the newer Athearn motor.On the other hand buying a MRC CM20 could be a better answer as well and cost less then repowering.
About that 6200..I had to look up the details..Yes that would work and be less then the CM20.Both the CM20 and 6200 has a mode switch for HO and N so you are good to go since the 6200 like the CM20 can be used for all scales except for Lionel and other like brands that uses AC power.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Barkie, I think my main problem is the BB's are old and worn out. New style motor helped, before with the old ones it would just down with 1. Plus for what ever the reason the 12 wheelers just seem slower. I know the 2500 I have now would run 5 Super weights if I had that many.
On the 13.2 with 3.55's. Hum I smell some super tuning in thoses numbers. Main reason I BBQ the Goat (smells nasty while cooking them but taste OK) was the QB was to busy laughing at me and the VW which was painted Plum Cray. It was a county road Drag Races where you run what you brung. He was beating every thing that was trying, Z's, Mach 1's SS and what ever. So I gave it a try, car was new to the street seen and no one knew what it could do. All he saw was a funny looking little car that idle funny. He knew how to drive, just not think he needed to. Well as we booth know if you have a qucker 60 foot time good chances you will will. With a Bug with all the weight over the drive wheels thay are tuff to beat anyway, throw in a burn out and you have smoked Goat.
Any other seconds on the power supply I listed? All so what about a MRC 6200 at 35 VA.
45 cars now and it still keeps going and going and going.
Ken
I have a Digitrax Power Supply that is adequate amperage no worries there. I can feed several boosters. One is 8 Amp and the other two planned will be 5 amps each.
Regarding the GTO driver, I think he does not know how to drive. He sat burning rubber too long on the line. I dont do hard launches but am a top end driver. I did once beat a stock Ford Mustand GT (1990 model) with a 93' Freightliner COE Tractor with the 470 detroit on a rockwell 9 without a trailer off the stoplight on a certain divided highway on the east coast. I had him off the line, held him off until I hit high end and got im until 110 or so.
I did incur damage on the power train taking off on torque in high range but it was worth the shop foreman's verbal abuse in his office. =)
I added weight to my SD 45 to bring it up to a scale weight of a prototypical.
How well did it work you ask? I was never able to try it as the layout collapsed when I placed the loco on the track!
"My old Tech IIs can handle 5 old BB units." - and my old Volkswagen 'Beetle' could go 90 MPH (downhill).
========================================================
Don,I realy don't care if you believe that or not..Know one thing.I have no reason to come on this or any other forum and lie.My Tech II can and will handle 5 BB units..
That power supply ought to do it ! I do not think it's a number of feeders problem. I had my last layout down to one feeder on an 80' loop before I broke down and completely dismantled it and it still worked all right. Not recommending that just stating a fact.
That QB obviously didn't know how to drive. My '66 Goat ate RRs, admitedly non-hemi ones, for breakfast. 107MPH in 13.12 at Richmond. With a 3.55 rear and the wide-ratio 4 speed.
A friend got a '65 (I think I remember right - it has been 40 years) Belvedere w/ the Hemi, and he was a bit disappointed in it stock, but man when we got through with it, it was awe inspiring.
Ok, more power and the MRC 2500 is dying. What about this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/TEKPOWER-VARIABLE-DC-POWER-SUPPLY-0-18-VOLTS-0-3-AMPS_W0QQitemZ250022485259QQihZ015QQcategoryZ48708QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Sort of kidding about that power supply, but if it would work? I all most bought one for my slot car track and would have if I had not went the way of the rail. They have a 10 amp for around $120.00.
Maybe the MRC 2500 is heading south. What is the life of a thottle? I run the train every day from a short day 2 hours and long day 6 to 8 hours.
One thing I should throw in and maybe the under laying problem. I have very few power taps (feeders) at this point plus only a few turns are solder. Main line B that is around 100 feet only has 7 and A only 4.
As far as a old bug VW. Hum that was my first car. Dad did not want me to grow up a gear head like him. You be amazed what can be done to them.
1963 VW 40 HP Threw in a 67 block, EMPI stroker crank with needle bearin mains, 92 MM barrels and pistons, 67 302 Z-28 rods, 73 Duale port heads, sodium filled 39MM and 40 MM vales, dual 40 Webbers carbs, Bosh Mag, TRW cam (cannot rember specks) Fits racing clutch, Weber lighten Flywheel, close ratio 3rd and 4th gears and Hurst shifter.
My claim to fame was the day I beat the rival towns Quater Back in a drag races. He had a 67 GTO Tri Power 4- Speed with 4.10 like gears. He lite the hides while laughing at me, before he got moving I had him by 4 cars and pulling like heck shifting at 6500 RPM. Was a soild 13.4 car. In fact how Dad let me have the 68 Road Runner I still have, so I would not kill my self.
As far as making stuff work that won't? Pulling 43 cars behind the Erie Bulits. Couplers on the Eries are horn hooks, first car, horn hooks, second car lead is horn hook then Kadee for the next 25 cars then 16 more horn hook's. I am changing them all but fun getting something that is junk working well.
It keeps going and going, around 160 hours with no derails, this is fun again Cuda Ken
Except -
Power supply is not finite, or constant. It will only put out as many amps as required at any given voltage, up to the rated maximum.
I don't know about 5 old BB units, because I only ever owned four powered ones, but I know I have owned 3 Tech II 2400s (before one started to die) that would handle the four BBs and a couple of other engines.
The fastest I ever saw one of those old VWs go was 70. The one I was in only went about 30 down that hill, but it wasn't rolling on it's wheels. Still made it to school with no windows and only one door that would open.
Gentlemen:
In a world of variables - car weights - rolling friction - various radii and intangibles - there are several certainties when our running our trains:
Engine Traction must offset what is to be pulled (Drag). 'Number of cars' is replaced by amount of weight to be pulled (Drag). Friction and incline increase 'drag'. To have an AMMETER is to be informed.
(a)Adding weight will add traction but can burn out the motor. (b) Use an Ammeter.
Power supply output is finite, and limited by the Transformer. Oversimplification: Today, a 18VA supply will put out 1.5 amps @ 12 volts or 7.2 volts @ 2.5 amps (both total 15VA). A 12 VA supply puts out 1 amp at 12 volts and less than 5v @ 2.5 a. Wonder why speed drops as you add engines? Don't, plus HD transformers are expensive. Chances are your power pak is somewhere between these numbers.
Voltage provides Intensity). An electric motor runns faster on 24v than 12. Amps are what do the work.
Leon Silverman wrote: The rated stall current for a particular motor may not be available to you. In addition, this may not be a safe load limit for that motor anyway. Knowing it's value is important if you decide to install a decoder. If the decoder has a lower rating than the motor's stall current, it will shut down without burning out your motor. If the decoder's capacity exceeds the stall current of the motor, it can concievably burn out your motor by overloading it.
The rated stall current for a particular motor may not be available to you. In addition, this may not be a safe load limit for that motor anyway. Knowing it's value is important if you decide to install a decoder. If the decoder has a lower rating than the motor's stall current, it will shut down without burning out your motor. If the decoder's capacity exceeds the stall current of the motor, it can concievably burn out your motor by overloading it.
If you have a decent digital Ohm meter the stall current is easy to get. Just measure the resistance across the motor. Then divide that value into your maximum voltage and you have the stall current.
Leon Silverman wrote: Don Gibson wrote: I agree. Todays S.S. power paks don't put out enough wattage (VA) to run old multiple BB lashups, since they pulled up to 2 amps each - .5 amps at best - depending on the motor. Barra-Cuda Ken: The fact that you're running 20 - 50 MPH anywhere near* FULL THROTTLE tells me your power pack lacks 'Oomph' - Watts - VU's. DC *powerpacks lack 'tapered' speed controls, and you'll need around 2.5 amps to run those old BB's. That translates to 30 VA today. ALL power paks drop voltage as amps get near their capacity. 'Betcha you don't don't have the HP. SAVE up your sheckels and you might get a good power pak while they still make them - or you can find one used. Look for an MRC AG 9500 @30VA. Better yet, the MRC Control Master 20 is rated at 100 VA when operated at its' full voltage, but will still have plently of omph when operating at the lower voltage.
Don Gibson wrote: I agree. Todays S.S. power paks don't put out enough wattage (VA) to run old multiple BB lashups, since they pulled up to 2 amps each - .5 amps at best - depending on the motor. Barra-Cuda Ken: The fact that you're running 20 - 50 MPH anywhere near* FULL THROTTLE tells me your power pack lacks 'Oomph' - Watts - VU's. DC *powerpacks lack 'tapered' speed controls, and you'll need around 2.5 amps to run those old BB's. That translates to 30 VA today. ALL power paks drop voltage as amps get near their capacity. 'Betcha you don't don't have the HP. SAVE up your sheckels and you might get a good power pak while they still make them - or you can find one used. Look for an MRC AG 9500 @30VA.
I agree. Todays S.S. power paks don't put out enough wattage (VA) to run old multiple BB lashups, since they pulled up to 2 amps each - .5 amps at best - depending on the motor.
Barra-Cuda Ken: The fact that you're running 20 - 50 MPH anywhere near* FULL THROTTLE tells me your power pack lacks 'Oomph' - Watts - VU's. DC *powerpacks lack 'tapered' speed controls, and you'll need around 2.5 amps to run those old BB's. That translates to 30 VA today. ALL power paks drop voltage as amps get near their capacity. 'Betcha you don't don't have the HP.
SAVE up your sheckels and you might get a good power pak while they still make them - or you can find one used. Look for an MRC AG 9500 @30VA.
Better yet, the MRC Control Master 20 is rated at 100 VA when operated at its' full voltage, but will still have plently of omph when operating at the lower voltage.
We been using the CM-20s at the club since the early 90s..I fully agree they have lots of omph at low voltage.
Don,I doubt if the DC power packs will be going away any time soon..Theres still tens of thousands DC users around.My old Tech IIs can handle 5 old BB units..
While there may not be an NMRA standard for locomotives, I plan on using the NMRA weight standard for the unpowered Athearn F7B in my consist. Why should the A&B units have to lug its big butt around? This will involve grinding weight out of it with my Dremel.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Sounds like your pack's "breaking down under load". Simply put, VA=Watts. Use 2.5 amps at 12 volts = 30 Watts. Run the throttle up to about 90%, if you're still using the 2.5 amps, but with only 20 watts available on the 280, you'll only get about 8 volts. Either that or you'll get the 12 volts, but only about 1.6 amps.
Prototype railroaders have similar problems, their equipment runs on 600 volts and up to 1000 amps +/- briefly.
For a Really good power supply, just go on a get an MRC Control Master 20. With 75 VA of power (in HO scale mode), that should handle almost anything. I think I paid like $100 +/- for mine like 10 years ago. These also handle G scale, with 85 VA of power in large scale mode. It has walkaround and memory, should you like to have these features.
No, mine's NOT for sale.
As a rule of thumb, I try to get my engines fairly close to scale weight, a 200 ton SD40-2 should weigh about 9.75 ounces. Even though my Proto 2000 E-8's weigh nearly 16 oz., I'm not changing those.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
Mopar! I love Mopar, let see I have a N 02 with a 150 HP plate and 20 pound bottle, or I could strap the 6-71 Blower to the MRC 2500.
Well for he folks think I need wheels spining, I pulled out 1 oz and the wheels spin singel headed and a little doubled heaed.
Then I threw on a PK Erie Bulit single headed and it stall and somke the wheels at the Apx of the track. Would cook at the lower part on the track say 100 sMPH.
Next I threw in the B unit and it would pull the train, but at 50% power would stall and spin the weels at the Apx, or should I say high spot of the track. At 55% it makes the rounds on the B line. Threw on 2 Super Weight A&B's F-7's and with a light load and at 80% thottle they are moving very well, Super weight's with lite load say 80 sMPH and PK's Erie Bulit a round 70 sMPH.
As far as the Rocket motor, Hum that is a Olds term and not a W-30 442. Not sure what it is but here is a PIC of the SPD that was weighted and lead engine.
Don, as far as needing 30 VA, I think I will be OK. With running the 2500 16 VA on line A and 20 VA with the 280 I should be OK for now. Triple headed then quaded headed ws just to see what would happen.
Oh, one thing I all most forgot to say. With only doubled headed BB's they pulled well and a lot faster than triple headed BB's.
BRAKIE wrote: Darth,Athearn hasn't used the Jet motors in years..In fact they use several different motors in the BB units since the days of the jet motor.
Darth,Athearn hasn't used the Jet motors in years..In fact they use several different motors in the BB units since the days of the jet motor.
Yes, I know about the new motors, and even have a few Athearns with the gold motors. I mentioned the Jet 400 motors because cudaken said his engines have the old round motors.
_________________________________________________________________
Part of the problem might be the old motor. They take a lot more juice. I have a newer F45 with 9 oz. added. I've found that to be the optimum added weight for the stock Athearn motor. More than that, it just doesn't run right. Haven't fried any athearn motors yet. If I do, oh well, they are cheap. Just make sure the wheels still spin if there is too much on the drawbar.For weighing, weigh the shell, then the mechanism, then add it up. I managed to find a digital food scale that weighs up to 5 lbs, I think, in 1/8 oz increments -- accurate enough for my needs.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
The manufactors should build a 10 foot stretch of 4% grade, build a 20 car train and see if their engines can haul the stuff all the way up without slipping.
Then add weight, bigger motors etc as necessary until thier engines can actually get that 20 car train over the top or even start one mid grade. All before sending the final production order to the factory.
Then they can sell that loco with confidence that it is adequately powerful and worth the cost.
In the meantime I rely on several locomotives to carry the load.
I really did not expect 4-4-0's, 4-6-0's etc to carry 20 over 4% but if they can get 5-10 cars rolling on the level it would be great.
In thirty some years of using traction tires, and adding as much weight as physics allowed, and piling on cars around the layout, I have lost a whopping three motors. I have actually filled part of an old stocking with lead shot and balanced that on a steam engine just to see what it would do for tractive effort. One old Canon ate up the brushes and the armature both, finally, after several attemps to arrest the deterioration along the way, and I finally just gave up and replaced it. One was a Bachmann pancake that got sick from fighting out of quarter drivers repeatedly, and one was an old in-the-cab Rivarossi that used up the brushes and some idiot (who shall remain un-named) screwed up the repair job. I think the risk of burning up motors is overblown, unless there is a complete absence of knowledge.
I have four old Athearn BBs, 2 Trainmasters and two Alco PAs, with the old metal sideframe trucks yet, and all four of them consisted together will go scary fast, I did not check exactly, but seemingly as fast as one alone, to the point I would not run them at close to full throttle for more than a partial straight stretch. I did this to test a MRC 2400, and as I recall they were pulling something in the neighborhood of 2 plus amps. I know it probably did not trip because I did not leave it at full throttle long.
Therefore, my point is, that if cuda is running locos and they are just crawling as he adds a load, I think there is a very good chance something is wrong. I would definitely get an ammeter and see what the heck is going on. The way the MRCs are designed you should not see a large drop in voltage due to added load right up until the point where the unit trips on overload. Maybe the wheels are not slipping and he is indeed straining the motor, in which case it will eventually go, but I think something in wrong in any event. When I finally started to lose an MRC 2400, the first sign was that the speed at any throttle setting started falling off with the same load. On my layout you could run from one transformer district into another one, and you would see a negligible change in speed through the crossover, until the one unit started to go and then you would see a significant change. I bought another one and went back to not seeing a speed change.
Quite the list isn't? No where near the Jet 400 and 500 days.
84030 MOTOR, 1/2 ARMATURE(SWITCHERS & HUSTLER) 84040 MOTOR, 5/8 ARMATURE(LARGE LOCOMOTIVES) 84047 MOTOR, 5/8 W 3/4 FLYWHLS 84048 MOTOR, 1/2 W/FLYWHEELS 84049 MOTOR, 5/8 W 5/8 FLYWHEELS 84060 MOTOR, C44-9W HI PERF 84067 MOTOR, C44-9W HP W 3/4 FW 84067 MOTOR HI PERF C44-9 W/FLYWHEELS 84070 MOTOR HI PERF AMD10384077 MOTOR HI PERF AMD W/FLYWHEELS 84080 MOTOR HI PERF FOR DCC 84086 MOTOR HI PERF W/NEW FLYWHEEL FOR DC 84087 MOTOR HI PERF W/NEW FLYWHEELS 85043 SEE 90113
I don't know of any NMRA standards for engine weight, but you should make sure the wheels can slip if the engine can't pull a certain load. With Tyco's Power-Torque drive, that is unfortunately not possible because the motor's so weak. As long as you have a mechanism that runs freely and a good motor, you shouldn't have to worry about that.
I think the reason you have to turn the throttle up to 90% just to get 2 Athearn's running is because the old oval-shaped Jet 400 motors draw so much current. They're probably drawing about 1.5 to 2 amps without a load, which over-loads most power-packs.
Don,I agree with the amp meter if one adds extreme weight to their locos and no wheel slippage.
Now in the case of adding 6 pieces of stick on weight there is no real danger of overheating the motor because the wheel slip is still there when the locomotive is coupled to more cars then it can pull.
One of Athearn's biggest problems is they never added the needed weight to their line of locomotives like Atlas,Kato,P2K,Stewart,Walthers and Bachman-Spectrum did.
I don't think the MRC 2500 is going bad, my engines are old. Few are more than likely from the 60's or best 70's.
I am now running triple headed and running OK with a 6.5OZ dummy and 39 cars up the 2 % grade. Now I am at 100% thottle and guessing moving around 50 sMPH. So I guess more power would help, getting ready to throw in Super Weight to see what happens.
When I said the FP-45 strggled to pull the train, it never stalled but went real slow up the grade. SPD before I added weights was spinning like heck, looked like a HEMI doing a 12 wheel burn out.
Should I stall the engines to see if the wheels spin?
Just threw in the F-7A Super Weight, well if you like slow this is great! Down to around 30 sMPH if not slower. But the Good news to me is the old MRC 1440 at 14 VA would have shut down in 30 seconds with the 3 BB's. With the new MRC 260 coming with 20 VA and using a second thottle on main line B I should be set till I go DCC.
Oh, on the warm to touch, with out dragging any cars the older BB's I have feel warm after say 10 minutes. One of the reason I have up grade a few with newer motors.
Enjoying MRR again, Cuda Ken 160 hours of trouble free rail hours. Life is good tonight.
Simply put:
ADDING ENGINE WEIGHT does two things: Motors overheat; if the wheels don't slip.
Manufacturers balance Pulling power/ Motor capacity/ with price. It's easy to add weight to an engine, but that increases the amps consumed, which increases CO$T. Each manufacturer has to guess how many cars YOU are going to pull - which determines how big the motor - which determines how much you willing to pay in a competative market?
SURPRISE: cheaper products are designed for the 'toy' market, and to pull only a few cars. Case in point: Bachman's 'Hogswart Express' engine. On the other side of the spectrum we have Kato and their 'cloned' Stewart, and InterMountain drives.Proto 2000's SD-60 was a heavy engine, 6 wheels, and geared to boot. Want a 'puller'? - look no further.
ANYONE wanting to add weight should have, and use, an Ammeter.
Old Athearn BB 'round' engines pulled 1 amp nominally, 1.75amps at startup, and 2 amps at stall. New Genesis' 1/2 - 1/4 that. I put an A-line 'Holland' motor replacement in a BB F-7 (with custom paint job) and it now STARTS at 0.12 amps.