When is it time to give up and list your stuff on E-bay. Time of learning curve?

[Don Gibson]

Coulda Woulda Ken:

Here I thought I was the all time 'derailment King'.  THANKS for making me realize that there, except for the grace of god, go I.

1. You need to acquire some Kalmbach books, on 'How to .... ' (do better).

2. Derailments occur for a reason.

You are expecting too much - too soon. Gratification comes with doing something RIGHT. Beasly is correct. Concentrate on, and fix ONE thing at a time. I'd start on the track. Take a section and make it PERFECT.

When you see that a piece of gauged equipment DOESN'T derail, it may provide you a clue.

3. 'Cheap' is for the birds.

..."I started in Feb this year with cheap LL set. ... "

[METRO]

I've been in this hobby since I was ten and I'm still working things out, just relax.

I've gotta agree with some other people here that the best stress relief in model railroading is watching the real thing. It's amazing what a couple locals and a doublestack will do to brighten your day.

But also, perfection is overrated and impossible, even the greatest layouts had teething problems and bad days. Here's a few constants (in both real and model railroading)

1: Track will never be perfect

2: Couplers will fail from time to time

3: The most expensive equipment is seldom the best

4: Sometimes you just feel like going on strike.

Cheers Mate & Good Luck!
~METRO

[Driline]

Ken,You don't really need to solder your rail joints-I am yet to solder any rail joint-I found a bus and feeders wires is the best solution because it gives power to each track section..For me dropping a feeder every 8 foot seems to work.

Yea, I agree with Larry. Soldering every darn piece of track is not worth it.Plus if you ever want to take it up its a nightmare. Like he said, just add more feeders if you think you have a connection problem.

[BRAKIE]

Ken,You don't really need to solder your rail joints-I am yet to solder any rail joint-I found a bus and feeders wires is the best solution because it gives power to each track section..For me dropping a feeder every 8 foot seems to work.

[ShadowNix]

Hey Cudaken,

I hear you, man!  The last time I felt that way was when it took 4 hours to attempt to install my first tortise switch...especially after the solder splattered on my chest -- OMG that BURNS   !!! It took another 4 to get it right.  Needless to say,  I took a few weeks off after that.  Like you, I am new to the hobby (ok, reborn after a 20+ year hiatus).  But, I think the journey is half the fun (And now I use edge connectors and drill bigger holes and mask them off -- all of which I learned here on the forum or in MR books).  Anyways, don't despair.  The best bit of advice my LHS owner told me is, "take your time and enjoy it." 

Oh, and sometimes a good bottle of beer or glass of scotch help soothe the wounds.  Hang in there, bud.

Brian

[cudaken]

Don't know about the Fly By Nighter thing, I am 85% sure I am into this for the long haul. Tonight was a 50 50 MRR night, first 50% was great then it went south. Section of track got jerkey with the doubled headed PK's. Pulled them off on to a spur and ran a Dash 9. Goes dead where the track got jerky with the PK's. Leaned on the board to push the engine, it started moving before I touched it. I guess I know why people solder all there joints. Right after a power tap yet. Will added it is the section I have to lay on to get to.

         Cuda Ken

[BRAKIE]

When I am in my casket..

I been in this hobby for 54 years and still learn new and exciting things.

There is lots of enjoyment in this hobby as well as sad times.When the coupler give find out why and fix it..You just learn to trouble shoot and repair a car..And so it goes after time you will know what to do such as change out couplers to KDs,change out trucks to better trucks,lay trouble free track and have derailment free cars which leads to trouble free operation.

On the other hand in the 54 years I been in the hobby I seen more then my share of fly by nighters that  becomes enthusiastic about the hobby and fades away over any excuse he/she can find.Oddly or perhaps strangely enough I seen more fly by nighters over the last 8-10 years..

[cudaken]

Driline, you are sort of right and wrong. Train was after thought, board was a HO slot car track till I got on the Crazy Train.

       

 

         

 Main problem is I knew nothing about HO trains.Ho slot cars I have done off and on for years. Did not need to be Bob Vella to bulid a slot car track board. Seems a AFX SRT does not care if there is 2% grade bulit it to the floor. Heck the little suckers can climb a wall with the right magnets for traction and tires.

 I do think I will offer up some stuff for sell. When you start pulling stuff and sitting them a side to clear up the board so as my wife but it (looks like a train junk yard) maybe you have to much stuff?

 Tonight has been a pretty good train night so far. Added a Athearn Hopper that I have added weight to. Wanted to derail where I had it in the train. Moved it back 6 cars and flipped the lead axle (one that was derailing) and have made 30 laps with out derailing. That was a tipe that Darell that does not post a lot gave me when I picked up the MRC 2500.

                Cuda Ken

[Driline]

Don't give up Cuda Ken. I saw all of your pictures as you were building you're layout. My observations were that perhaps you took too giant of a leap trying to complete that large layout in as quick a time as possible.

I started with a 4X8 layout and built everything by the book. I used an Atlas already designed track layout (The plywood Summit) and made sure everything was correct regarding track alignment and wiring. I also scenicked it as well. That was 4 layouts ago. We all take baby steps and learn from our mistakes over the years. I've been in it since 1992. Now I've learned to use quality 1X3 pine for my frame, along with 5/8" plywood and homosote as a base. Its a slow building process but well worth the wait. I'm building a small layout by most standards. Only 11X7 and its an around the wall shelf layout. Its gonna take time, but I've learned that patience pays off in the long run.

Just my 2 cents worth......

[skiloff]

You want to know aggravation; become a computer programmer - I've written programs in my sleep, that's how consuming it can become when you can't figure out why your code is not working.  And God only knows how many chapters of my novel have gone into the trash because my rhetoric just ain't workin'.  I finally burned myself out on computer programming but I'm NEVER giving up on my novel - It'll get written and it'll get published.

This is about where I'm at.  Glad I'm not the only one.

[Anonymous]

This is a great post.  I have that feeling for financial reasons though.  Sometimes I just do a quick calculation of what I have invested and how much I can get if I sell of completely till I get better off or maybe just sell off the majority and keep some and be a  Collection hobbiest for a while till I get better off.  I figure I can a pull a quick $4000 for my layout and some of the rolling stock trains at low value.  $4000 would be great to have and help out on the bills like the crazy high energy cost.  I am not ashamed to think abuout this sometimes but I really do love model trains and being a good model railroader.  The crazy thing is wwe all buy alot when the money is good and I think of selling some of it when it gets tough and have before.  I realize this is a hobby for life and its money not too badly invested in my life.  My layout is a great conversation piece and can come up anywhere and people want to see it and envy it.  That is a great feeling there.  Almost priceless so that is what stops me from really make the big move of listing it on Ebay one day.  But time can bring anything in the future.  As it stands today I am keeping my home layout. 

[Anonymous]

I sell there all the time.  There is alot of money to be made selling cheap stuff to newbies

I am glad someboy else can learn the lessons I have by paying my way by me selling all the stuff that does not work well.

 

[Guilford Guy]

I could never sell any of my stuff on ebay, yet I could buy stuff from ebay <img src="/trccs/emoticons/icon_smile_wink.gif" alt="Wink [;)]" />

[cudaken]

Yes, I know the back up and regroupe thing! That why I started the hobby. One of the poster remember this Money pitt.

 That Car is the whole reason I went to HO stuff. I spent well over 500 hours doing the body work, painting, wet sanding and buffing the Money Pitt. Did not keep track of body parts and supplies but well over $6000.00. Paint was $600.00 by it self! Replaced all the break parts, seats, wiring. Engine, that is where I made my main mistake, I did not bulid it my self. Only engine I have not done my self I will add. There is over $12,000.00 sitting in the engine bay. Made the Dyo Run and made un real HP 685 HP at a mer 5200 RPM's at 10% over driven. But dropped in the money pitt and only made it 85 miles, to one caar show. What the machine shop missed was a miss made pistion! I would have caught the fact the .030 pistion was only .015 over but it was not there engine and did not mic all the holes and slugs like I would have.

 So to get a break from the Mopars I started this mess. Well on the Mopars, I guess my learing cuve was a little faster than HO MRR. Have had only one motor go bad, the money pitt. But, it take a few years to learn tuning and get from the 14's to 10's.

 What makes it worst is I count on the trains to help me un wind after work! Having the stuff derail does not help.

 Darrel that did give me a little boost by letting me use his MRC 2500 till I can afford a new throttle.

 After talking whit him and reaading Roberts posting about driven the spikes in to far (I have done that 85% of the rails I have layed, I have a idea what to check for. That is more than what I have had.

 Maybe shut down the track for a while and just run onces a week at K-10 trains would help as well.

 Maybe drive a Older Mopar as well will help. I have not started the Charger (can't motor is out) Cuda or the Runner for 9 months. That is burned out!

 Thanks for the words of encougrament, but only time will tell if there is a nothe left in me to learn a new and complex hobby.

                    Cuda Ken

 

[Railphotog]

I've seen others do the same, start in the hobby and be all gung-ho about everything, buying all sorts of stuff and going in about ten different directions at once.  Their enthusiasm seems to be overwhelming, turning out models quickly, usually fairly crudely too.   They are doing stuff so rapidly that they don't seem to have the time to learn how to do anything right.    Others can do better because of experience - you learn from your mistakes, seek out help from others, and move on.

Some time later we hear these guys are no longer in the hobby, they've burned out.  I think of them as "flash in the pan" modelers, without any real long time interest in the hobby.  I assume they thought they were interested in model railroading, but their interest wasn't very deep.

Some get discouraged because they don't take the time to assimilate the skills and facts about the hobby.   I often wonder if they'd do the same if they took up other hobbies that also take time to master - say one of the martial arts?  Would they quit in six months because they hadn't received their black belt yet?

"Model railroading isn't life or death" - it's more important than that to serious modelers! 

Bob Boudreau

 

[rrebell]

One problem i see with newbees is they get a lot of bad advice, not saying that any advice here is bad. One problem is there are so many ways of doing the same thing and depending on how true to life you want it, there are different standards. I for one would never use Atlas standard track { I use shinohara code 70 } but would never recomend that to a newbee, they'd give up after the first switch and restoring real wood kits for cars, ever shaved down z bracing to another size because the size you needed is no longer available. And also things change, wish we had foam in the 60's.

[nbrodar]

Ken,

I've been in the hobby for almost 20 years, and have built 8 layouts.  I still don't know everything, and occationally run into problems I can't solve and have me pulling my hair out.  You don't have to give up, but sometimes it's a good idea to take a step back.   The solution to your problem will usually present itself, when you stop thinking about it.

Don't be afraid to fail.  My first couple layouts were disasters.  But I learned something, and started over again. Now, my layout is the envy of several of my friends.

Brass track gave way to nickel silver.  Snap Switches to real No. 4 and 6 turnouts.  Sectional track took a backseat to flex.     I'm still learning new tricks on how to lay track better.   The cheap train set stuff I started with is gone.  Replaced by Athearn, Atlas, and Spectrum locomotives and Athearn, and MDC cars, which in turn are being replaced by Bowser, Branchline, and Accurail cars. 

It's a proven fact, you learn better by making mistakes, then if you get everything right the first time.  The true definition of learning is not making the same mistake twice, but making new ones instead.

Nick

[Anonymous]

Ken,

I've been ready to quit a few times. I walk away from it for a bit and come back to it when I can. This time of the year for me is the worst. I hardly ever set foot in the basement due to too many projects in the house or outside.

I've never sold any of my stuff. I have some very very nice N Guage stuff my wife bought me after I came back from the Gulf in 1991. I dropped out of the hobby from 1995-1999, and then got back into HO scale. My son has requested the N Scale stuff and he may just get it.

I look at some of the folks here and their layout and I am amazed at the detail and love they have for the Hobby. I then see the folks like tstage and his shots on his foam top layout with the Dow Corning clearly seen in the shots and it make my old 4x8 Homasote top layout seem acceptable to me.

I like to RUN my trains. My mind does not wander off to make trees, sculpt mountains, and build bridges. I want to do that some day, and I plan to start by adding little modules to my lay out.

With the internet and forums like this, I can dream, I can see what others have done and I can plan. I dream for a Challenger but know my layout is not worthy of such. I love my little diesel switchers in the yard because I know I've got that laid right and it's in the middle of the layout. No chance one of them is coming off track and being damaged. I have to throw all my switches by hand, and that's alright with me.

I've fallen in love with intermodal containers and the 48 foot RTR wellcars by Athearn. Why? I have NO IDEA! But they look so nice being pulled by either my dual lashup GP40's or the single dash8-40CW. I have another dash 8 coming later this year, so I'll be adding another set of well cars too! LOL! How STUPID is that? I almost have enough to go all the way around my 4x8 main line! But the detail of the wellcars and the different colors of the containers really get me going! Plus it's what my Grand Son and I see going through on the line through town.

I guess what you need to find Ken is that niche in this hobby that you enjoy and get pleasure in. Find that and see if you can stretch to other aspects of the Hobby. I've been in and out of this hobby now since I was a kid. I am more active now than anytime before at the age of 50. It's still something I have a great deal of pleasure in. I hope you can find your comfort place in this hobby.

Chris

[emdgp92]

I've felt that way...usually after my Athearn Baldwin S12 has stalled again. Most of my engines are Athearn BB items...which don't give me trouble. For some reason, the S12 is the only one I have problems with. For some reason, the wheels (NWSL replacements) don't stay clean, the truck bolster joints (i.e., the contact points) keep getting dirty, the sideframes fall off, etc. Yet, the track is totally clean! I've seriously thought about bashing the S12 to bits with a sledgeahmmer! Usually when those thoughts start, the S12 behaves itself and I walk away.

[Anonymous]

you  need to relax a bit, sometimes our expectations are greater tham end results. this time of year,give the trains and yourself a break, enjoy summer for a week or so, it'll clear your head. myself,i haven't touched a thing since may,just like the outside more. when you go back,get a nmra gauge,check track,then wheelsets and work to fix the problem. are trains too long? are lighter cars up front and heavier cars in back? is track on wood,in basement or attic where heat and humidity are causing shifts in trackwork? these are the learning curves you will experience throughout the hobby. self-gratification comes with learning to adust the problems, no one has built a  layout in a few months, take your time and when you get too p*ssed off,walk away, it's a hobby that should relax not stress,been there before.

[rrinker]

 The learning curve never stops - that's what's cool about this hobby. There's always somethign new to learn and try. I started as a kid with cheap Tyco and Life Like and Bachmann. It got frustrating, expecially my last layout before college, which was in N scale. I had some nice rollign stock from Atlas (came with metal wheels unlike most of the others), and with my Atlas track it stayed on the rails just fine. But all I could get were the crappy Bachmann locos which ran like the junk they were. I finally got frustrated and gave up, just before those nice-runnign Atlas/Kato locos came on the market. A year or two later and I may never have gone back to HO. As it was, I left the hobby for good for at least 5-6 years, then was just an armchair modeler for 2-3 more years.
 You are learnign a lot by these issues you have. One, based on your description of your layout, is that 42 cars is just too much. It's cool to once in a while see how many cars you can pull - I once built a train on our old 4x8 that nearly coupled onto itself just to see which of my locos would pull it. But it's too much train for the size layout, both from a realism level and for practical reasons. But now you know. Second, you've found that poor trackwork, and poor quality track components, lead to frustrating derailments. We've all been through that one. A few lucky ones get pulled intot he hobby by a friend who's already been there, done that, and might avoid that step of the learning curve, which is good because it's a big reason some people never stay in the hobby. You've taken steps int he right direction by replacing wheels and couplers - you just have to start working on the track. It's not even necessarily because of your inexperience - some sectional track is just that bad that even when the joints are carefully put together, it has kinks which cause derailments. Of course, when you first go out and buy a train set, you have no way of knowing that.  But then, the first tiem you ran your car, did you meet all your goals? You had to go back and try a few different things to getit where you wanted it. Same with a train layout. Sure it's frustrating, but stick with it - it's a lot of fun in the long run. Plus we're always here for help.

                                                                 --Randy

[CNJ831]

Ken - If you think getting everything about your layout operating smoothly and looking great over night, or in just a few months, is supposed to be the norm, my advice to you is to seek another, far simpler hobby. Most will admit that the learning curve in model railroading generally amounts to 10-30 years. And you've been at it how long...just six months? Hobbyists will typically keep learning and improving their skills throughout their complete tenure in the hobby. That's why virtually all the guys with publishable layouts in the magazines are elderly and admit to having been in model railroading since they were kids!

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

A maintance free machine.  A no maintance layout.  Things that never break, oh what a dream.  I think you maybe need to see a doctor man, a broken coupler shouldn't cause such rage, esp in a hobby item. Hope you don't have such rage when people act up.  Fred

[IRONROOSTER]

I have never stopped learning in this hobby even after 35 years.  I don't know the cause of your problems but one solution is a bigger scale.  Larger scales are more forgiving of problems. 

In any scale, you need to build sound benchwork and carefully lay and test roadbed and track.  Even though I have laid a fair amount of track I always check and test it - if it isn't 100%, I pull it up and redo it.  The trackwork is critical, when you sight along it should have a smooth and flowing look to it; it should be level from side to side (super elevation should be used cautiously if at all); there should be no kinks or bumps, dips or humps.  Run your fingers over the joints, if they are rough smooth them.  Use easements for curves and grades. Make sure everything is in gauge, check everything with a standards gauge.

My current layout is S scale with code 100 track, my only derailment occurred with a car that has defective trucks.   Otherwise I run forwards and backwards with no problems.  All my cars are weighted to NMRA standards, have metal wheels, and KD couplers.  Wheels are checked for gauge. Trucks roll freely or are worked on until they do.

I have seen 100+ car trains in N scale runnning smoothly at train shows, so it can be done.

Good luck
Paul

[Anonymous]

cudaken;

Aren't you the guy that dropped the $12,000.00 engine in the dragster and had it come unglued after only 81 minutes of operation? or something like that?

I can't believe that you are in sales; I tried my hand at sales three different times and each time I had to go back to work for wages because my commissions just weren't feeding the bulldog.  But I kept picking myself up off of the ground and giving it one more college try.  I got a $3752.00 commission check one time - one weeks work - and it was six weeks before I saw another penny.  I'll bet you've had the same experience!  I finally acknowledged that I was never going to be anything more than a mediocre salesman and I went on to other things - BUT I NEVER GAVE UP AFTER SIX MONTHS.  Sales can be invigorating one minute and the most depressing experience in the world the next - sometimes it's one "No" after another and then, wham, you get that magical string of "Yeses" and it makes it all worth while.

You want to know aggravation; become a computer programmer - I've written programs in my sleep, that's how consuming it can become when you can't figure out why your code is not working.  And God only knows how many chapters of my novel have gone into the trash because my rhetoric just ain't workin'.  I finally burned myself out on computer programming but I'm NEVER giving up on my novel - It'll get written and it'll get published.

You're not the first person to have troubles out on the line; I was operating our NTrak layout one time and it took me an hour and ten minutes before I got a train all the way around the loop without a derailment - and then it ran flawlessly for over two hours.  I've spilled trains on curves, picked points and sent cars onto adjacent tracks causing a multi-train pile up; I over-lubricated a loke one time and no matter how much Brite-Boy(R) I used everytime a train hit one particular stretch of mainline it came to a halt with the locomotive drivers spinning like crazy.  I've had coupler extractions and so has every rail on this forum.

And there have been times - many times - when I was so aggravated that I wanted to find the nearest wastecan and consign hundreds of dollars worth of locomotives to the bottomless pit.

I've been in this hobby since 1962 - but I went from 1964 until 1978 without a home layout - I was a member of three clubs and I built a bunch of locomotive kits in the intervening years and then switched from HO to N and it all went to a swapmeet.  Maybe one of the reasons I have survived is because I had those long periods of enforced inactivity.  I don't even have an operating layout right now - I remarried (I was a bachelor for 13 years) just a little more than two years ago and my new wife's presence in my house required me to more or less give up my train room; I've decided I can't rebuild it so its going to get discarded and I'm going to build one that is portable.  Here comes layout number 6 since I retired from the Air Force in 1978.

Hang in there, Podnah; there's always a light at the end of the tunnel.  Give yourself a break - forty-eight or seventy-two hours or however long you think you need.  Go to the hobby shop and pick up a railroad oriented book to read - Brian Solomon is a fantastic writer and I would recommend anything with his authorship. Unfortunately, your description of your troubles of these last few days sounds suspiciously like you are trying to live in a world of makeshift repairs;  when you come back from your hiatus grab a paper and pencil and carefully analyze what happened on your pike that has caused you so much frustration and see if you can't determine what exactly happened - and then fix it once and for all. 

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Cuda Ken. After many years of dreaming of having the time, space, money,freedom to enjoy this hobby. The one thing I told myself is that it is a HOBBY. I gave myself 25 to life for the construction of my own little world and that my friend takes time. A very wise man once told me if you can do 1 hr a week on your layout = 52 hours per year which is quite bit of time but still allows good progress at the same time.

cheers womblenz

[Berk-fan284]

Hey Cuda Ken, I think you're operating like I do when I develop a new interest or hobby and overdo things (buying or building lots of things in a very short time) I usually get bored/burned out just as quick from the rapid pace of activity. Slow down relax step away from the hobby go participate in another one of your interests, this is supposed to be fun not a race to keep up with everyone else or have the instant railroad empire. Go out to your garage give the Charger some attention (I have a 67 GTO that has been on indefinate hold over 15 years). See been there done that and have the scars to prove it. The forum and the people will still be here and will be just as happy to see you when you're ready to go railroading again. Take it easy Cuda Ken.

[jbinkley60]

Nothing helps me more than finding the nearest mainline, sitting by the tracks and having a few double-headed coal trains roar by.  Sometimes just watching other trains, not your own, will help.  I agree, a break sounds like it is in order.  Just don't do like I did on my last one and stay away 3 years.  You can only do so much house and yard work <g>...  As for derailments, the last rash of them cost me tearing out part of a mountain and redoing trackwork.  I didn't want to do it but everyone here convinced me it was the right thing to do.  The good news is that as part of it, I made some changes (got some new ideas) and wish I had incorporated them in the beginning.  ANother thing which has helped me is adding the extras like layout lighting, DCC and sound.  They add a whole new level of realism and excitement. One day I need to get that Locobuffer installed...

 

 

 

[GearDrivenSteam]

You know how I handle times like that? By fixing ONE thing at the time. JUST one. If you have your track fastened down with nails, that's one thing it could be. A lot of people make the mistake of driving the nail in too far. Doing this will slightly decrease the gauge of the track. Sometimes, it's enough to cause problems like you are describing. I use track nails, but here's how I do it: I drill a pilot hole first. Then, I push the nail in with a nail set VERY carefully. If I see the tie become distorted, I get out the needle nose, and gently pull the nail up a little. I have several places like you describe on my layout now, too. It's a learning curve for ALL of us. Remember this too: Prototypes derail everyday. It's a fact of life. It's part of the hobby. Might I make a suggestion? When you have a derailment, DON'T touch anything. Get the camera. Take pictures. Not only can you share them with us, which will be cool, but you might even spot the problem in one of your pictures. Many things show up on film that we don't see actually looking at it. Just an idea.