Homasote help

[n2mopac]

I think the problem with N scale noise over larger scales has to do with weight. The 1:1 physics don not change, and the weight of an HO or larger engine helps dampen the vibration between the motor and the tracks. That vibration in N scale really reverberates through cork and plywood, and the larger the plywood piece the worse it is. It is too bad too, becaue I really like working with the cork. Plus, it is more difficult to use sound in N scale to cover up that noise. I know new products are coming out all the time, but so far the only ones that are close to sounding good are way out of my price range.
Ron

[n2mopac]

I think the problem with N scale noise over larger scales has to do with weight. The 1:1 physics don not change, and the weight of an HO or larger engine helps dampen the vibration between the motor and the tracks. That vibration in N scale really reverberates through cork and plywood, and the larger the plywood piece the worse it is. It is too bad too, becaue I really like working with the cork. Plus, it is more difficult to use sound in N scale to cover up that noise. I know new products are coming out all the time, but so far the only ones that are close to sounding good are way out of my price range.
Ron

[Anonymous]

The 1/2 foam is fine on 1/2 plywood. I was talking about the cost. Using those 2 products cost more than some other methods. Foam really quiets motor noise down the best. I didn't understand that was a concern of yours. I do HO and motor noise doesn't concern me as much it seems to matter to N scalers. I guess from talking to and seeing N locos they grind a bit more than HO, is that correct? Try sticking it to the plywood with Silicon in caulk tubes. This should further dampen sound transfer.

[Anonymous]

The 1/2 foam is fine on 1/2 plywood. I was talking about the cost. Using those 2 products cost more than some other methods. Foam really quiets motor noise down the best. I didn't understand that was a concern of yours. I do HO and motor noise doesn't concern me as much it seems to matter to N scalers. I guess from talking to and seeing N locos they grind a bit more than HO, is that correct? Try sticking it to the plywood with Silicon in caulk tubes. This should further dampen sound transfer.

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

I misspoke a little, you glue up mountains yet from foam. You carve in ditches and streams. A yard will work on 1/2 plywood and cork sheets or tile too, no foam.

Do I understand you correctly to say that you would not use foam under a yard (either 2"-3" alone or 1/2" on plywood)? Why? Is there some problem I am not seeing with putting paralles yard tracks on a foam roadbed base? Here is another issue/possibility for my main line. Woodland Scenics makes a foam roadbed product. I seems like it would deaden sound pretty well, but I'm not sure about its all around performance and I don't know how its price would compare to good old cork. I have used cork always before and am happy with its workability, but my goal is to find something that deadens sound a little better on plywood. That is why I was considering homasote and would consider foam, especially in a hard where It will rest on a large plywood base. Keep the suggestions coming, tegether we will find a great solution that I will love i'm sure. Thanks all.
Ron

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

I misspoke a little, you glue up mountains yet from foam. You carve in ditches and streams. A yard will work on 1/2 plywood and cork sheets or tile too, no foam.

Do I understand you correctly to say that you would not use foam under a yard (either 2"-3" alone or 1/2" on plywood)? Why? Is there some problem I am not seeing with putting paralles yard tracks on a foam roadbed base? Here is another issue/possibility for my main line. Woodland Scenics makes a foam roadbed product. I seems like it would deaden sound pretty well, but I'm not sure about its all around performance and I don't know how its price would compare to good old cork. I have used cork always before and am happy with its workability, but my goal is to find something that deadens sound a little better on plywood. That is why I was considering homasote and would consider foam, especially in a hard where It will rest on a large plywood base. Keep the suggestions coming, tegether we will find a great solution that I will love i'm sure. Thanks all.
Ron

[BR60103]

I have found that using a panel saw with a knife blade cuts Homasote beautifully with no dust. It makes a perfectly smooth cut. The knife blade, however, is almost as hard to find as Homasote.
Cautions on this: Do not push; let the saw travel at the speed it wants. Otherwise the blade heats up and de-tempers. Let the saw rest at intervals -- same reason.
Be careful about what's below the Homasote -- the blade will not cut wood supports, sawhorses or plywood sub-roadbed.

[BR60103]

I have found that using a panel saw with a knife blade cuts Homasote beautifully with no dust. It makes a perfectly smooth cut. The knife blade, however, is almost as hard to find as Homasote.
Cautions on this: Do not push; let the saw travel at the speed it wants. Otherwise the blade heats up and de-tempers. Let the saw rest at intervals -- same reason.
Be careful about what's below the Homasote -- the blade will not cut wood supports, sawhorses or plywood sub-roadbed.

[Anonymous]

LOL ... 1 person takes offence because I say that homasote is the old fashion way, another states he's been using it for 30 years. The discussion was he couldn't find homasote and I gave an alternatives method using modern space age materials that are avalible anywhere. No one says you have to use them! I assumed anyone who had a computer and therefore access to this board might be open to modern technology and not stuck in the 70's, guess I was mistaken. Let's try this, anyone modeling steam and first generation diesel use homasote and DC, everyone else can use foam and DCC (LOL).

[Anonymous]

LOL ... 1 person takes offence because I say that homasote is the old fashion way, another states he's been using it for 30 years. The discussion was he couldn't find homasote and I gave an alternatives method using modern space age materials that are avalible anywhere. No one says you have to use them! I assumed anyone who had a computer and therefore access to this board might be open to modern technology and not stuck in the 70's, guess I was mistaken. Let's try this, anyone modeling steam and first generation diesel use homasote and DC, everyone else can use foam and DCC (LOL).

[ClinchValleySD40]

To each his own. I have always used 1/2 inch Homasote over 1/2 inch plywood and have never in 30 years had a problem. I am building a new layout, quite large, and would not even consider anything else.

[ClinchValleySD40]

To each his own. I have always used 1/2 inch Homasote over 1/2 inch plywood and have never in 30 years had a problem. I am building a new layout, quite large, and would not even consider anything else.

[Anonymous]

You can build a box from 1X4 the outside size of the section. Then put 1X4 sideways in the box every 16" to bring the foam even with the top of the box. Glue the foam in. 2" will work fine this way and will be lighter. 3 inch foam can be used on 24 inch centers and on 8 foot modules seem to be lighter. I misspoke a little, you glue up mountains yet from foam. You carve in ditches and streams. A yard will work on 1/2 plywood and cork sheets or tile too, no foam. I have used damaged 2X4 ceiling tiles glued to plwood too. Ceiling tile also makes great limestone cuts. Also, RTV Silicon works as a glue too. I use clear RTV gasket silicon from autoparts. I use it to stick down buildings and glue foam to wood and paper. It's semi-permant. It will stick a plastic building down to just about anything with only four spots. You can then remove them later for whatever. It also don't soak in and is great for attaching backboards and pictures to backboards. Avoid hotmelt glue on foam, but works great on ceiling tile. I hot melt glued a scene TO the CEILING, a barn, track, trees, and cattle. It's funny.

[Anonymous]

You can build a box from 1X4 the outside size of the section. Then put 1X4 sideways in the box every 16" to bring the foam even with the top of the box. Glue the foam in. 2" will work fine this way and will be lighter. 3 inch foam can be used on 24 inch centers and on 8 foot modules seem to be lighter. I misspoke a little, you glue up mountains yet from foam. You carve in ditches and streams. A yard will work on 1/2 plywood and cork sheets or tile too, no foam. I have used damaged 2X4 ceiling tiles glued to plwood too. Ceiling tile also makes great limestone cuts. Also, RTV Silicon works as a glue too. I use clear RTV gasket silicon from autoparts. I use it to stick down buildings and glue foam to wood and paper. It's semi-permant. It will stick a plastic building down to just about anything with only four spots. You can then remove them later for whatever. It also don't soak in and is great for attaching backboards and pictures to backboards. Avoid hotmelt glue on foam, but works great on ceiling tile. I hot melt glued a scene TO the CEILING, a barn, track, trees, and cattle. It's funny.

[snowey]

QUOTE: Originally posted by n2mopac

Just responding to all your helpful advice, I went to the homasote web site and found that only about 5 places in all of Missouri (yes I'm in Missouri too) carry it. The only one within 100 miles of me is in Jefferson City, over 40 miles away. I have used extruded foam for scenery, but havn't tried it for roadbed. My primary concern is in yards, and extruded foam would probably work well there in 1/2 " thicknesses. I assume with foam you have to glue the track down. What is the best glue for this that won't attack the foam? I know I've read the answer to that question in MR in the past, but can't remember. Thanks again for everyone's input.
Ron

any of the water-based glues works fine with foam, for instance white glue like Elmers and Elmers carpenters wood glue. Woodland Scenics sells a white glue called "Foam-Tak glue" that also works fine. You may find, though, that the tip on the bottle clogs easily after a few times. Just use white glue from a craft or home improvment store, and you'll be fine.
Whatever glue you use, though, just make sure its water based, along with other things that go on the foam like paintt, scenery materials, etc.

[snowey]

QUOTE: Originally posted by n2mopac

Just responding to all your helpful advice, I went to the homasote web site and found that only about 5 places in all of Missouri (yes I'm in Missouri too) carry it. The only one within 100 miles of me is in Jefferson City, over 40 miles away. I have used extruded foam for scenery, but havn't tried it for roadbed. My primary concern is in yards, and extruded foam would probably work well there in 1/2 " thicknesses. I assume with foam you have to glue the track down. What is the best glue for this that won't attack the foam? I know I've read the answer to that question in MR in the past, but can't remember. Thanks again for everyone's input.
Ron

any of the water-based glues works fine with foam, for instance white glue like Elmers and Elmers carpenters wood glue. Woodland Scenics sells a white glue called "Foam-Tak glue" that also works fine. You may find, though, that the tip on the bottle clogs easily after a few times. Just use white glue from a craft or home improvment store, and you'll be fine.
Whatever glue you use, though, just make sure its water based, along with other things that go on the foam like paintt, scenery materials, etc.

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

1/2 is too thin for stand alone. If you use it put plywood under it. Use 3 inch and you can glue it right to the frame. Liquid nails works good as does any water based cement/glue. Avoid organic solvents, ie acetone, esters, gasoline. In a yard you would put the track right on the foam, or make roadbed and ditches with a knife. You start at the top and dig down instead of the bottom and build up. Do it backwards from the old way. If you go too deep plaster or spackling sticks good. You can use acetone to dig with, but I don't really recommend it. BTW I live in Aurora... 35 miles west of Springfield.

Tanks again. I suppose I failed to mention that in my yards I plan to use a plywood subroadbed base with 1/2" foam on top. I considered the 2" or 3" stuff, but I don't want to make the entire bast too thick which I think this would do. I have 2" on hand for scenery, but think I will use 1/2" on plywood for my yard purposes. (I'm just outside Sedalia, 100 miles or so north of you)

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

1/2 is too thin for stand alone. If you use it put plywood under it. Use 3 inch and you can glue it right to the frame. Liquid nails works good as does any water based cement/glue. Avoid organic solvents, ie acetone, esters, gasoline. In a yard you would put the track right on the foam, or make roadbed and ditches with a knife. You start at the top and dig down instead of the bottom and build up. Do it backwards from the old way. If you go too deep plaster or spackling sticks good. You can use acetone to dig with, but I don't really recommend it. BTW I live in Aurora... 35 miles west of Springfield.

Tanks again. I suppose I failed to mention that in my yards I plan to use a plywood subroadbed base with 1/2" foam on top. I considered the 2" or 3" stuff, but I don't want to make the entire bast too thick which I think this would do. I have 2" on hand for scenery, but think I will use 1/2" on plywood for my yard purposes. (I'm just outside Sedalia, 100 miles or so north of you)

[dknelson]

Maybe I should clarify that I have plywood benchwork, flat topped using the David Bararow domino technique, over which I place homasote subroadbed, over which I put cork or foam roadbed for the mainline, while sidings are on the homasote itself.

There is also a prefab roadbed made of upson board which is useful for radius curve templates. I have had it in my basement for a few years and it does warp a little. I have not sealed it however whereas all my homasote is sealed, even the stuff I have waiting to cut.

I am also using some foam (cut with a hot wire) for a creek valley area where the flat top benchwork is not appropriate. It will work just fine but I do not conclude from that that foam is more modern and homasote old fashioned. I would concede that as a building material homasote might be old fashioned and outdated which is probably why it is found less and less often. I wonder if it is less likely to be found in areas that have termites?
Dave Nelson

[dknelson]

Maybe I should clarify that I have plywood benchwork, flat topped using the David Bararow domino technique, over which I place homasote subroadbed, over which I put cork or foam roadbed for the mainline, while sidings are on the homasote itself.

There is also a prefab roadbed made of upson board which is useful for radius curve templates. I have had it in my basement for a few years and it does warp a little. I have not sealed it however whereas all my homasote is sealed, even the stuff I have waiting to cut.

I am also using some foam (cut with a hot wire) for a creek valley area where the flat top benchwork is not appropriate. It will work just fine but I do not conclude from that that foam is more modern and homasote old fashioned. I would concede that as a building material homasote might be old fashioned and outdated which is probably why it is found less and less often. I wonder if it is less likely to be found in areas that have termites?
Dave Nelson

[wp8thsub]

"Homasote is, to open a can of worms here, crappy. It's pressed, recycled paper that swells up or shrinks with changes in humidity, and is so densely compressed that it is hard to drive a track nail into it without pre-drilling a small hole. A much better product, in my opinion, is sound board (Upson board)..."

OK, since you opened the can, in I go...

I've used Homabed for nearly 20 years and have yet to encounter a roadbed product I could recommend more highly. Homabed is very stable dimensionally and I've never encountered a problem with changes due to humidity; soak it during ballasting and it doesn't move. I have often stated a belief that Homasote catches blame for dimensional changes in inadequately constructed benchwork and subroadbed. After all, it's only paper so it has to be the weak link, right? I hand lay a lot of track with Micro Engineering's small spikes, but haven't had problems inserting the spikes into Homasote, nor have I had to drill pilot holes.

Upson Board is also pressed paper. I used a lot of it on my last layout and wouldn't touch it again. Unlike Homasote, it tended to delaminate if too much water got on it during scenery construction. It swelled unevenly, absorbing more water around spike holes and not returning to its previous size and shape. It seems a lot of products get referred to as Upson Board (I know that's what mine was since it had the Upson label on it), so it's possible we're thinking of somewhat different materials (or there are different types made by the same company).

As usual, your mileage may vary...

[wp8thsub]

"Homasote is, to open a can of worms here, crappy. It's pressed, recycled paper that swells up or shrinks with changes in humidity, and is so densely compressed that it is hard to drive a track nail into it without pre-drilling a small hole. A much better product, in my opinion, is sound board (Upson board)..."

OK, since you opened the can, in I go...

I've used Homabed for nearly 20 years and have yet to encounter a roadbed product I could recommend more highly. Homabed is very stable dimensionally and I've never encountered a problem with changes due to humidity; soak it during ballasting and it doesn't move. I have often stated a belief that Homasote catches blame for dimensional changes in inadequately constructed benchwork and subroadbed. After all, it's only paper so it has to be the weak link, right? I hand lay a lot of track with Micro Engineering's small spikes, but haven't had problems inserting the spikes into Homasote, nor have I had to drill pilot holes.

Upson Board is also pressed paper. I used a lot of it on my last layout and wouldn't touch it again. Unlike Homasote, it tended to delaminate if too much water got on it during scenery construction. It swelled unevenly, absorbing more water around spike holes and not returning to its previous size and shape. It seems a lot of products get referred to as Upson Board (I know that's what mine was since it had the Upson label on it), so it's possible we're thinking of somewhat different materials (or there are different types made by the same company).

As usual, your mileage may vary...

[Anonymous]

I found that in LA most lumber yards carry homasote. After spending a lot of time experimenting with how to cut the stuff, I use a Makita circular saw and reciprocating saw with sharp blades. I hold my shop vac next to the cutting to suck up the mess. I have gotten pretty good at cutting the stuff without making a huge mess.

[Anonymous]

I found that in LA most lumber yards carry homasote. After spending a lot of time experimenting with how to cut the stuff, I use a Makita circular saw and reciprocating saw with sharp blades. I hold my shop vac next to the cutting to suck up the mess. I have gotten pretty good at cutting the stuff without making a huge mess.

[cacole]

Homasote is, to open a can of worms here, crappy. It's pressed, recycled paper that swells up or shrinks with changes in humidity, and is so densely compressed that it is hard to drive a track nail into it without pre-drilling a small hole. A much better product, in my opinion, is sound board (Upson board) which should be available at your local Home Depot or Sutherlands in the insulation section. It's a brown fiber product that appears to be made from ground up peanut shells or some such item, and does not swell up or shrink with humidity variations. Sound board comes in 1/2 inch thick 4x8 foot sheets. It's best to use two layers glued together with caulking compound, and pin your track in place with plain sewing straight pins instead of track nails. The Cochise & Western Model Railroad Club in Sierra Vista, AZ has it's entire 20 x 40 foot layout built on hollow-core doors and sound board. To view this club layout, go to http://users.ssvecnet.com/cacole

[cacole]

Homasote is, to open a can of worms here, crappy. It's pressed, recycled paper that swells up or shrinks with changes in humidity, and is so densely compressed that it is hard to drive a track nail into it without pre-drilling a small hole. A much better product, in my opinion, is sound board (Upson board) which should be available at your local Home Depot or Sutherlands in the insulation section. It's a brown fiber product that appears to be made from ground up peanut shells or some such item, and does not swell up or shrink with humidity variations. Sound board comes in 1/2 inch thick 4x8 foot sheets. It's best to use two layers glued together with caulking compound, and pin your track in place with plain sewing straight pins instead of track nails. The Cochise & Western Model Railroad Club in Sierra Vista, AZ has it's entire 20 x 40 foot layout built on hollow-core doors and sound board. To view this club layout, go to http://users.ssvecnet.com/cacole

[Anonymous]

1/2 is too thin for stand alone. If you use it put plywood under it. Use 3 inch and you can glue it right to the frame. Liquid nails works good as does any water based cement/glue. Avoid organic solvents, ie acetone, esters, gasoline. In a yard you would put the track right on the foam, or make roadbed and ditches with a knife. You start at the top and dig down instead of the bottom and build up. Do it backwards from the old way. If you go too deep plaster or spackling sticks good. You can use acetone to dig with, but I don't really recommend it. BTW I live in Aurora... 35 miles west of Springfield.

[Anonymous]

1/2 is too thin for stand alone. If you use it put plywood under it. Use 3 inch and you can glue it right to the frame. Liquid nails works good as does any water based cement/glue. Avoid organic solvents, ie acetone, esters, gasoline. In a yard you would put the track right on the foam, or make roadbed and ditches with a knife. You start at the top and dig down instead of the bottom and build up. Do it backwards from the old way. If you go too deep plaster or spackling sticks good. You can use acetone to dig with, but I don't really recommend it. BTW I live in Aurora... 35 miles west of Springfield.

[n2mopac]

Just responding to all your helpful advice, I went to the homasote web site and found that only about 5 places in all of Missouri (yes I'm in Missouri too) carry it. The only one within 100 miles of me is in Jefferson City, over 40 miles away. I have used extruded foam for scenery, but havn't tried it for roadbed. My primary concern is in yards, and extruded foam would probably work well there in 1/2 " thicknesses. I assume with foam you have to glue the track down. What is the best glue for this that won't attack the foam? I know I've read the answer to that question in MR in the past, but can't remember. Thanks again for everyone's input.
Ron