LHS v. .COM supliers

[darth9x9]

I do both....you have to to be a smart shopper (if you have more money than sense, that's another thing).

BC

[darth9x9]

I do both....you have to to be a smart shopper (if you have more money than sense, that's another thing).

BC

[on30francisco]

I usually buy online. I model in narrow gauge and the LHSs are usually out of the materials I need. I realize that they must make a living but those list prices they charge are escessive and the service and attitude of these shops are below par. I have never had a problem with the online vendors I've used (Trainworld, Standard Hobby, Caboose Hobbies, First Hobby, Coronado Scale Models, and others). Many of them treat me as if I am their only customer. There is an exception. When I'm in the South Bay, I shop at The Train Shop. This is a very well-stocked hobby shop that deals with all scales, gives very courteous and helpful service, and sells 10% to 20% below list price. I buy most of my scratchbuilding supplies at Pearls and Michael's which are two big discount arts & crafts stores.

[on30francisco]

I usually buy online. I model in narrow gauge and the LHSs are usually out of the materials I need. I realize that they must make a living but those list prices they charge are escessive and the service and attitude of these shops are below par. I have never had a problem with the online vendors I've used (Trainworld, Standard Hobby, Caboose Hobbies, First Hobby, Coronado Scale Models, and others). Many of them treat me as if I am their only customer. There is an exception. When I'm in the South Bay, I shop at The Train Shop. This is a very well-stocked hobby shop that deals with all scales, gives very courteous and helpful service, and sells 10% to 20% below list price. I buy most of my scratchbuilding supplies at Pearls and Michael's which are two big discount arts & crafts stores.

[CBQ_Guy]

I have a great LHS a couple miles down the road. In fact, I have THREE in my area and they all handle primarily, if not exclusively, train stuff! The furthest is about 6 miles away. The owner is a retired school teacher but is a former RI employee and life long train nut. He has a double deck layout in the basement of his home, and is building a 20 by 40 foot layout in the basement of his store, both Rock Island.

He is extremely knowledgeable about the prototype AND has multiple distributors he works with so he can usually get anything you want. The store is overflowing with train stuff, 98 per cent HO scale, and there is stock piled up in the aisles he doesn't have room for on the shelves for. He gives a 20 percent discount off of everything and orders what he can get for you and also pays the shipping. Great guy!

I have only ordered off the net a couple times in certain, specific circumstances. I realize I am lucky but because I DO have a LHS, I try to support them almost exclusively.

[CBQ_Guy]

I have a great LHS a couple miles down the road. In fact, I have THREE in my area and they all handle primarily, if not exclusively, train stuff! The furthest is about 6 miles away. The owner is a retired school teacher but is a former RI employee and life long train nut. He has a double deck layout in the basement of his home, and is building a 20 by 40 foot layout in the basement of his store, both Rock Island.

He is extremely knowledgeable about the prototype AND has multiple distributors he works with so he can usually get anything you want. The store is overflowing with train stuff, 98 per cent HO scale, and there is stock piled up in the aisles he doesn't have room for on the shelves for. He gives a 20 percent discount off of everything and orders what he can get for you and also pays the shipping. Great guy!

I have only ordered off the net a couple times in certain, specific circumstances. I realize I am lucky but because I DO have a LHS, I try to support them almost exclusively.

[Anonymous]

I live in the Baltimore area and the big LHS is uptown and they have excellent prices and very good selection. However, if they don't have what I want or they have sold out of an item,I don't hesitate to call a mail order store and get the item from them. The place I deal with in Pennsylvania also has excellent prices. Its nothing personnel, but my time is worth something too! If an online store has what I want and the price is competitive why shoudn't I shop there?

Jim

[Anonymous]

I live in the Baltimore area and the big LHS is uptown and they have excellent prices and very good selection. However, if they don't have what I want or they have sold out of an item,I don't hesitate to call a mail order store and get the item from them. The place I deal with in Pennsylvania also has excellent prices. Its nothing personnel, but my time is worth something too! If an online store has what I want and the price is competitive why shoudn't I shop there?

Jim

[MAbruce]

Hey "huber25", you must have been pretty board to dig this oldie up from last August! Thanks for the memories... [:p][;)]

QUOTE: See, your dollar is a vote. Most of the money on the online market is voting against the American worker. It sounds like some patriotic stand, but who do you think hires local workers? Why is it that almost all of the major computer corporations have hired overseas companies to cut their cost so they can be cheaper than the competition? Why is the steel industry in so much pain? Because in some countries it is cheaper to build a car than here, so we have to go to their suppliers to match their costs. They aren't buying here either!

Oh my, I don't have the time or inclination to pick apart this load of **** [:(!].

Time to move on...[xx(]

[MAbruce]

Hey "huber25", you must have been pretty board to dig this oldie up from last August! Thanks for the memories... [:p][;)]

QUOTE: See, your dollar is a vote. Most of the money on the online market is voting against the American worker. It sounds like some patriotic stand, but who do you think hires local workers? Why is it that almost all of the major computer corporations have hired overseas companies to cut their cost so they can be cheaper than the competition? Why is the steel industry in so much pain? Because in some countries it is cheaper to build a car than here, so we have to go to their suppliers to match their costs. They aren't buying here either!

Oh my, I don't have the time or inclination to pick apart this load of **** [:(!].

Time to move on...[xx(]

[mls1621]

I model in N scale and the local choices are limited when it comes to rolling stock and structures.

I'm very fortunate, however, to have great local sources. The St Louis area is home to American Model Builders (Laser Kit), Micro Engineering and AMI, the makers of Instant Roadbed. Woodland scenics is in Lynn, Mo.

The best asset in the area is my local hobby store, Tinker Town. The owners don't model in N scale, but they have the best selection in the area. They both have layouts in there homes, one is HO and the other is On3.

I'm relatively new to this forum, but I've seen a number of posts dedicated to the subject of poor local hobby shops. The conclusion I've drawn, only my opinion, is that the shops are poor because they have no reason to improve.

I'll be the first to admit that I buy some of my supplies from online sources or train shows, but my first source in all cases is Tinker Town. Only after checking there do I go elsewhere.

Support your local hobby shop, there is a wealth of knowledge and experience to draw from. ".COM" sources may be cheaper, but it's very hard to hashout ideas or get hands on assistance from them.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[mls1621]

I model in N scale and the local choices are limited when it comes to rolling stock and structures.

I'm very fortunate, however, to have great local sources. The St Louis area is home to American Model Builders (Laser Kit), Micro Engineering and AMI, the makers of Instant Roadbed. Woodland scenics is in Lynn, Mo.

The best asset in the area is my local hobby store, Tinker Town. The owners don't model in N scale, but they have the best selection in the area. They both have layouts in there homes, one is HO and the other is On3.

I'm relatively new to this forum, but I've seen a number of posts dedicated to the subject of poor local hobby shops. The conclusion I've drawn, only my opinion, is that the shops are poor because they have no reason to improve.

I'll be the first to admit that I buy some of my supplies from online sources or train shows, but my first source in all cases is Tinker Town. Only after checking there do I go elsewhere.

Support your local hobby shop, there is a wealth of knowledge and experience to draw from. ".COM" sources may be cheaper, but it's very hard to hashout ideas or get hands on assistance from them.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by shawn-118

Seeing as I've just bought a house with an old barn(60x40=2400sqf) that I will be turning into my train room/building I can't see paying 4.99 ea for flex track at my LHS when I can get 100 pcs. for 99.99 online. Even with the excange rate S&H and duties the savings far out way the the support that I can justify giving my LHS. I know that I should support them but how can one willingly pay 350.00 more for the same product. With the amount of track that my layout is going to take, going through my LHS it will cost me more that the house did. An expence that my girlfriend will not go along with...so to keep the peace it's the "most for the money" that way she lets me keep a hobby that I love to do.

One thing I can say is that if I'm buying a large ticket item or a large quantity, my LHS's readily discount me where they can. They will either pay the tax (15%) or take an additional %'ge off. Unfortunately I find that by the time it gets to the LHS it has passed through so many hands that we are paying more than our fair share.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by shawn-118

Seeing as I've just bought a house with an old barn(60x40=2400sqf) that I will be turning into my train room/building I can't see paying 4.99 ea for flex track at my LHS when I can get 100 pcs. for 99.99 online. Even with the excange rate S&H and duties the savings far out way the the support that I can justify giving my LHS. I know that I should support them but how can one willingly pay 350.00 more for the same product. With the amount of track that my layout is going to take, going through my LHS it will cost me more that the house did. An expence that my girlfriend will not go along with...so to keep the peace it's the "most for the money" that way she lets me keep a hobby that I love to do.

One thing I can say is that if I'm buying a large ticket item or a large quantity, my LHS's readily discount me where they can. They will either pay the tax (15%) or take an additional %'ge off. Unfortunately I find that by the time it gets to the LHS it has passed through so many hands that we are paying more than our fair share.

[Anonymous]

I've read through this thread and see several interesting points. I've bought from ebay for a number of things and been quite satisfied. Of course, I've checked out the sellers as best I can and asked questions. Dealt with people who generally seem to know trains. Occasionally go to the online stores for things with a significant savings and no required support. I buy most of my stuff for my LHS. Again I shop around for price. Generally I find prices comparable to on line locally once the shipping, taxes, etc are all balanced. Like others I like to get my hands on things before buying. The fact that my LHS has limited stock (even those who specialized in trains) is a limiting factor. I recently ordered a few things and found I was paying full list when they normally discount off retail, and I had to wait over 2 months when I was promised delivery in a week, maybe 2. Service on orders stinks. And this is from a quality dealer who I give most of my business to.

I also keep hearing horror stories about problems the dealer has working with different distributors. Minimum orders, ongoing committment levels, and the like. This limits the number of distributors the dealer can or will work with. And, in turn it limits what I can buy. It also sends me to online sources for timely delivery. Now we hear of Athern being bought by a distributor who wants to further limit distribution channels. If the purchasing levels are set too high I expect to see the dealer drop Athern rather than change distributors (especially when Walther's is the MRR supply giant and really has to be on a dealers list).

I also keep a want list for parts, supplies, and equipment which I carry when I go out of town. I check the train shops where I travel and see if they have things I need.

[Anonymous]

I've read through this thread and see several interesting points. I've bought from ebay for a number of things and been quite satisfied. Of course, I've checked out the sellers as best I can and asked questions. Dealt with people who generally seem to know trains. Occasionally go to the online stores for things with a significant savings and no required support. I buy most of my stuff for my LHS. Again I shop around for price. Generally I find prices comparable to on line locally once the shipping, taxes, etc are all balanced. Like others I like to get my hands on things before buying. The fact that my LHS has limited stock (even those who specialized in trains) is a limiting factor. I recently ordered a few things and found I was paying full list when they normally discount off retail, and I had to wait over 2 months when I was promised delivery in a week, maybe 2. Service on orders stinks. And this is from a quality dealer who I give most of my business to.

I also keep hearing horror stories about problems the dealer has working with different distributors. Minimum orders, ongoing committment levels, and the like. This limits the number of distributors the dealer can or will work with. And, in turn it limits what I can buy. It also sends me to online sources for timely delivery. Now we hear of Athern being bought by a distributor who wants to further limit distribution channels. If the purchasing levels are set too high I expect to see the dealer drop Athern rather than change distributors (especially when Walther's is the MRR supply giant and really has to be on a dealers list).

I also keep a want list for parts, supplies, and equipment which I carry when I go out of town. I check the train shops where I travel and see if they have things I need.

[Anonymous]

Here's my two cents... take it as you will, but it is very personal to me.

I own a retail / B2B business NOT related to hobbies. However, I have found direct proof of the difference of online versus in store purchases.

First of all, I support my LHS with great allegience. They have bailed me out of trouble on many turns. Let me say right now, that I understand that not everyone has that level of access to great customer service. That is exactly the point though.

If I want to have something that they don't have in stock, I go to them with my request. They have good buying power (read: they buy a heck of a lot more than I do,) which means they are normally able to find new products at equal or marginally more expensive prices than I can. Let me make it clear here, that I trust this and don't spend my money (TIME,) searching behind their backs. I do this because of the trust they have engendered. It saves me money not to have to research, purchase, and wait for online items. (Heck, I put together Walther's orders for myself, print them and take them in, the prices are right there, and they beat it!)

In the event that I want a discontinued or out of stock item, I check them first. They readily admit their weakness and suggest I look further.

I have some definate opinions about the "Ebay" mentality out there. I have made good money on EBAY. I also occasional purchase items not found locally through EBAY. I support my local businesses FIRST. Why? Because they ARE the free market friends. So what did I sell? Vintage hard to find items.

I employ over 12 people in my retail business. They rely on our customers as much as I do. They are not faceless people out there who move quantity and split the same margin with fewer dependents. That is the real problem with the "global" economy. Pick a fight here people. If you want cheaper, don't complain when jobs leave our country for places where money means more for less. Don't complain when huge corporations rake in the cash and the little guy means less to the overall bottom line.

I am always amazed when someone shops us over the internet. Normally, if the product is genuinely the same, the price is normally not more than 10% different. Why? Because it costs the same to get the manufacturer to part with the product they create for EVERYBODY. Sure, I don't buy in the volume of Mr. Basement wholesaler. I also have a great deal more overhead (my employees are worth it.) Not to mention all of the customers who buy their stuff online, break it, don't like it, then bring it to me demanding that I satisfy them on behalf of the product. Yet, if you come to us and say what you want, you can walk away and we will shop for you. Pay for the talent, time, service, and convenience.

Now, if customer support is not worth it, then we don't deserve the extra pay. So, there it is, it is about SERVICES. Look at the shipping, returns, damage in transit, untrue claims, shady business practices, sweat shop type manufacturing, questionable cash flow.... Who are you giving money to? What do they support? What if the person on the other end supports all of the groups and special interests that you absolutely would stand against. We publicly support LOCAL projects, community services, scholarships, and people see where we spend our time and money.

See, your dollar is a vote. Most of the money on the online market is voting against the American worker. It sounds like some patriotic stand, but who do you think hires local workers? Why is it that almost all of the major computer corporations have hired overseas companies to cut their cost so they can be cheaper than the competition? Why is the steel industry in so much pain? Because in some countries it is cheaper to build a car than here, so we have to go to their suppliers to match their costs. They aren't buying here either!

No, it is not practical for everyone to use a LHS. But it drives me nuts to see people take the hardline of wanting everything cheaper, and cheaper, and free. There is no such thing. Eventually it will all hit bottom. Then where do you go? When all of your neighbors stop buying your companies products, who will pay your wages, pension, etc...? It is the same vicious cycle. It really does impact you eventually. Yes, competition is healthy. But anything in excess can be fatal.

Try harder to support your local businesses, NOT just your LHS. Go to them with your concerns, your needs, your requests. Let them try for your business. DON'T go in showing how much cheaper some dude with an online storefront that is actually in Bangladesh, and who's cousin "finds" deals in the back of semi's he drives. But make it clear how much you feel the item should be, and exactly what the item (part number) is. You will be amazed to find that because you picked the item, they will lower their margin on it. (Less overhead, less risk, less time on task for them = less cost to add to the product.)

Thanks for the opportunity to respond. Just consider these points as a personal view of someone who has tried most angles of business, and has approached this through the years with an open mind. I am not slamming anybody, just voicing some concerns based upon experience.

[Anonymous]

Here's my two cents... take it as you will, but it is very personal to me.

I own a retail / B2B business NOT related to hobbies. However, I have found direct proof of the difference of online versus in store purchases.

First of all, I support my LHS with great allegience. They have bailed me out of trouble on many turns. Let me say right now, that I understand that not everyone has that level of access to great customer service. That is exactly the point though.

If I want to have something that they don't have in stock, I go to them with my request. They have good buying power (read: they buy a heck of a lot more than I do,) which means they are normally able to find new products at equal or marginally more expensive prices than I can. Let me make it clear here, that I trust this and don't spend my money (TIME,) searching behind their backs. I do this because of the trust they have engendered. It saves me money not to have to research, purchase, and wait for online items. (Heck, I put together Walther's orders for myself, print them and take them in, the prices are right there, and they beat it!)

In the event that I want a discontinued or out of stock item, I check them first. They readily admit their weakness and suggest I look further.

I have some definate opinions about the "Ebay" mentality out there. I have made good money on EBAY. I also occasional purchase items not found locally through EBAY. I support my local businesses FIRST. Why? Because they ARE the free market friends. So what did I sell? Vintage hard to find items.

I employ over 12 people in my retail business. They rely on our customers as much as I do. They are not faceless people out there who move quantity and split the same margin with fewer dependents. That is the real problem with the "global" economy. Pick a fight here people. If you want cheaper, don't complain when jobs leave our country for places where money means more for less. Don't complain when huge corporations rake in the cash and the little guy means less to the overall bottom line.

I am always amazed when someone shops us over the internet. Normally, if the product is genuinely the same, the price is normally not more than 10% different. Why? Because it costs the same to get the manufacturer to part with the product they create for EVERYBODY. Sure, I don't buy in the volume of Mr. Basement wholesaler. I also have a great deal more overhead (my employees are worth it.) Not to mention all of the customers who buy their stuff online, break it, don't like it, then bring it to me demanding that I satisfy them on behalf of the product. Yet, if you come to us and say what you want, you can walk away and we will shop for you. Pay for the talent, time, service, and convenience.

Now, if customer support is not worth it, then we don't deserve the extra pay. So, there it is, it is about SERVICES. Look at the shipping, returns, damage in transit, untrue claims, shady business practices, sweat shop type manufacturing, questionable cash flow.... Who are you giving money to? What do they support? What if the person on the other end supports all of the groups and special interests that you absolutely would stand against. We publicly support LOCAL projects, community services, scholarships, and people see where we spend our time and money.

See, your dollar is a vote. Most of the money on the online market is voting against the American worker. It sounds like some patriotic stand, but who do you think hires local workers? Why is it that almost all of the major computer corporations have hired overseas companies to cut their cost so they can be cheaper than the competition? Why is the steel industry in so much pain? Because in some countries it is cheaper to build a car than here, so we have to go to their suppliers to match their costs. They aren't buying here either!

No, it is not practical for everyone to use a LHS. But it drives me nuts to see people take the hardline of wanting everything cheaper, and cheaper, and free. There is no such thing. Eventually it will all hit bottom. Then where do you go? When all of your neighbors stop buying your companies products, who will pay your wages, pension, etc...? It is the same vicious cycle. It really does impact you eventually. Yes, competition is healthy. But anything in excess can be fatal.

Try harder to support your local businesses, NOT just your LHS. Go to them with your concerns, your needs, your requests. Let them try for your business. DON'T go in showing how much cheaper some dude with an online storefront that is actually in Bangladesh, and who's cousin "finds" deals in the back of semi's he drives. But make it clear how much you feel the item should be, and exactly what the item (part number) is. You will be amazed to find that because you picked the item, they will lower their margin on it. (Less overhead, less risk, less time on task for them = less cost to add to the product.)

Thanks for the opportunity to respond. Just consider these points as a personal view of someone who has tried most angles of business, and has approached this through the years with an open mind. I am not slamming anybody, just voicing some concerns based upon experience.

[AggroJones]

If I bought everthing from my LHS...

1. I wouldn't have so much stuff.
2. More of my money would be gone.

Most things I must order on line in groups to make it actually cheaper including S&H.

[AggroJones]

If I bought everthing from my LHS...

1. I wouldn't have so much stuff.
2. More of my money would be gone.

Most things I must order on line in groups to make it actually cheaper including S&H.

[shawn-118]

Seeing as I've just bought a house with an old barn(60x40=2400sqf) that I will be turning into my train room/building I can't see paying 4.99 ea for flex track at my LHS when I can get 100 pcs. for 99.99 online. Even with the excange rate S&H and duties the savings far out way the the support that I can justify giving my LHS. I know that I should support them but how can one willingly pay 350.00 more for the same product. With the amount of track that my layout is going to take, going through my LHS it will cost me more that the house did. An expence that my girlfriend will not go along with...so to keep the peace it's the "most for the money" that way she lets me keep a hobby that I love to do.

[shawn-118]

Seeing as I've just bought a house with an old barn(60x40=2400sqf) that I will be turning into my train room/building I can't see paying 4.99 ea for flex track at my LHS when I can get 100 pcs. for 99.99 online. Even with the excange rate S&H and duties the savings far out way the the support that I can justify giving my LHS. I know that I should support them but how can one willingly pay 350.00 more for the same product. With the amount of track that my layout is going to take, going through my LHS it will cost me more that the house did. An expence that my girlfriend will not go along with...so to keep the peace it's the "most for the money" that way she lets me keep a hobby that I love to do.

[Anonymous]

I can honestly say I havn't bought anything on the internet. I would say 80 to 90% of my purchases are at the LHS's. I use the internet to get information, I've bought through mail order from Standard, IHC, Tony's and Trainworld but only because they have something that my LHS doesn't have. Both LHS's are good, if there's a problem it's easily fixed and I know what I'm getting. I've heard of one or two horror stories with the internet and besides I like dealing with real people. And as others have said if we don't support the LHS's then where we be when we need that "emergency" part or rail?

[Anonymous]

I can honestly say I havn't bought anything on the internet. I would say 80 to 90% of my purchases are at the LHS's. I use the internet to get information, I've bought through mail order from Standard, IHC, Tony's and Trainworld but only because they have something that my LHS doesn't have. Both LHS's are good, if there's a problem it's easily fixed and I know what I'm getting. I've heard of one or two horror stories with the internet and besides I like dealing with real people. And as others have said if we don't support the LHS's then where we be when we need that "emergency" part or rail?

[Hawks05]

QUOTE: Originally posted by h42man

The small town (less than 75000 pop)

i hope you're being sarcastic. 75,000 people is a small town?

i was surprised when i was coming into town the other day that the population here is 2662 or so. i thought it was 2200. we don't have a hobby shop within 50 miles. i try and get there a couple times a month but lately i've been either to busy or had to work that night and probably wouldn't make it back in time to get back to work.

i usually get everything at shows which will be the case this week or wait till i go to the LHS or have my mom pick up some stuff.

i might have to start buying online. i've used ebay once but i think to find locomotives i'm going to have to go to ebay for that or wait till i get the next Terminal Hobby thing which i'm waiting for.

like others have said i to am on a really tight budget for trains. i have car payments to make which i can barely pay for as i haven't gotten the hours like i did at work. now they are starting to pick up because my boss and her sister like working with me the best. hopefully though i can get about $100-$120 out of the bank this week to get some stuff.

[Hawks05]

QUOTE: Originally posted by h42man

The small town (less than 75000 pop)

i hope you're being sarcastic. 75,000 people is a small town?

i was surprised when i was coming into town the other day that the population here is 2662 or so. i thought it was 2200. we don't have a hobby shop within 50 miles. i try and get there a couple times a month but lately i've been either to busy or had to work that night and probably wouldn't make it back in time to get back to work.

i usually get everything at shows which will be the case this week or wait till i go to the LHS or have my mom pick up some stuff.

i might have to start buying online. i've used ebay once but i think to find locomotives i'm going to have to go to ebay for that or wait till i get the next Terminal Hobby thing which i'm waiting for.

like others have said i to am on a really tight budget for trains. i have car payments to make which i can barely pay for as i haven't gotten the hours like i did at work. now they are starting to pick up because my boss and her sister like working with me the best. hopefully though i can get about $100-$120 out of the bank this week to get some stuff.

[Anonymous]

OK guys, stand back to back, take one pace in cadence with my count, when you reach 10 paces, turn to face one another and commence firing. One of you will be marked LHS, the other On-Line. We will settle this dilemna once and for all.

All kidding aside, last time I checked we still lived in a land where we are free to make personal choices. The internet works for some guys and that is great for them. The LHS is the place to shop for others and that is great for them. Some do both. Yippee! Ain't life great?

Tom

[Anonymous]

OK guys, stand back to back, take one pace in cadence with my count, when you reach 10 paces, turn to face one another and commence firing. One of you will be marked LHS, the other On-Line. We will settle this dilemna once and for all.

All kidding aside, last time I checked we still lived in a land where we are free to make personal choices. The internet works for some guys and that is great for them. The LHS is the place to shop for others and that is great for them. Some do both. Yippee! Ain't life great?

Tom

[Anonymous]

My answer depends upon how you would categorize traditional mail-order suppliers. For about 10 years, I used mail order almost exclusively (the end of this period was at the very beginning of the web as we know it today, as opposed to the old bulletin boards, etc.), because there was no decent train-oriented hobby shop within a 45-minute drive. (I'm not big on driving in general, and especially not in Northern Virginia where I live). I still used LHSs for basics like paint, glue, styrene, etc., but for anything more complicated I mail-ordered. It was nice to save a few bucks but the far greater in-stock selection and the convenience of door-to-door delivery were the key factors. These LHS guys couldn't understand that "we can get it for you" [in four to ten weeks, at full list, without any ability to preview] just doesn't cut it when progress on your layout depends upon what you need at the time.

Then a shop called GrandDad's opened up, and within a year or two developed into an excellent hobby shop that is heavily oriented toward model railroading (their military section looks pretty good, too, but I'm not really in a position to judge). They have good stock; they are knowledgeable, friendly and helpful; I have even seen useful products there that I had not seen or heard of it from other sources such as the magazines. Although I wish it were closer, I buy things there that I know I could obtain more cheaply via mail-order, because I want them to stay in business. To those who (fairly) say, they don't owe anything to their LHS, I agree: see my first paragraph above. However, a GOOD LHS actually offers service and other features that I choose to place a value upon. Its also important to note that for items like hot new locomotives, this shop often offers very competitive prices.

I use the web extensively but mostly for research. I haven't personally tried any of the "pure" .com train retailers, but a mail order house that doesn't have a good web site will no longer get my business.