Train building insulation.(hot and cold)

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by juby4life

I normally don't post here any more but this thread has me a bit concerned. I would be very careful with what you use here. Make sure you use very light materials. I would not use sheet rock here at all. By the looks of the building it is probably not designed to have that kind of dead load placed on it. You don't want it to come down after all that work. My suggestion is to use a spray foam type of of insulation and possibly use some type of moisture resistant material for the ceiling material. Maybe glue blue board between and on the metal rafters and paint it. This way you'd have a vaulted ceiling thus more head room too. Remember that moisture is enemy number one to structures and metal ones are no exception. Whatever you do make sure the ceiling is either air tight (by using the foam) or have some sort of ventilation up there. Also if you get ANY snow I would definetly not attach sheetrock to the rafters. Don't ru***his part of your construction phase. Every hole made in the rafters compromises the structual integrity of the member. Many years in the truss industry taught me that.

Other then that I'd use Tyvek or similar brand vapor barrier on the walls and sheet rock could be used there. What are your plans for the electrical?

Jeremy

After seeing what type of building your working with, I totally agree with Jeremy on this. The low wall height and design of the structure wouldn't allow for any dropped ceiling as I previously recommended. The spray foam insulation would be the best alternative.
Before insulating, I would suggest planning your electrical. Any wiring for ceiling lighting should be piped in EMT. The walls may not need this but check with a local electrician or building dept. Once the foam is sprayed on it becomes very difficult to wire propery without damaging the insulation.
Bob K.

[Anonymous]

Spray foam is a rapidly expanding polyurethane. It looks kind of like honey when it goes on, and in about 5 seconds it just pops out into foam. I'd go with it all the way around, you can always scrape it down and put a free-standing wall in front of it if you really want to, but it's not bad looking with a little paint sprayed on. It looks like Great Stuff or any spray foam you get at Wal-Mart, only a good applicator will put it on a lot smoother, especially the high density.

If you're doing Romex (get the 10 or 12 awg 2 conductor w/ground) wiring I'd put it up before you spray, surface mount in conduit could be kind of hard to do on the foam if you don't put a wall in front of it.

Greg

[Anonymous]

I normally don't post here any more but this thread has me a bit concerned. I would be very careful with what you use here. Make sure you use very light materials. I would not use sheet rock here at all. By the looks of the building it is probably not designed to have that kind of dead load placed on it. You don't want it to come down after all that work. My suggestion is to use a spray foam type of of insulation and possibly use some type of moisture resistant material for the ceiling material. Maybe glue blue board between and on the metal rafters and paint it. This way you'd have a vaulted ceiling thus more head room too. Remember that moisture is enemy number one to structures and metal ones are no exception. Whatever you do make sure the ceiling is either air tight (by using the foam) or have some sort of ventilation up there. Also if you get ANY snow I would definetly not attach sheetrock to the rafters. Don't ru***his part of your construction phase. Every hole made in the rafters compromises the structual integrity of the member. Many years in the truss industry taught me that.

Other then that I'd use Tyvek or similar brand vapor barrier on the walls and sheet rock could be used there. What are your plans for the electrical?

Jeremy

[GAPPLEG]

I can attest to the virtues of spary on foam, I just re-insulated an older home with foam in the walls and the entire interior roof with spray on expanding foam, It cut my heating cooling bill by 1/2.

[loathar]

Hmmm...What is this spray on foam and what are "Bats"
http://home.earthlink.net/~loathar/id7.html This is the building.I've done no sheet rock inside.
Walt-I wish I bought that station!!! That's some great architecture!!!The neihborhoods too bad though...[:(][:(] I bet you could pick it up cheap. I'd love to see the inside of it.

[dave9999]

QUOTE: Originally posted by loathar

I have a 400sq.ft. train building.It has a metal roof and T-1 siding and a cement floor. The underside of the roof gets frosty in the winter and about 140 F in the summer.(middle Tn.) I'm planning on putting a 220v AC/heat/dehumidifier unit in this summer.(the one I'm planning on is good for 1000sq. Overkill is good)
NOW, my question, Should I go with a drop ceiling or just slap insulation board to the underside of the metal roof? They are both about the same price. The drop ceiling would be more work, but more visually pleasing and I could put better lighting in closer to the layout. I'm just concerned about its insulating properties.I know I could add blown in insulation above the drop ceiling when it was all done.(I want to maintain a 50F to 90F temp range) I would be putting a 1450 CFM exhaust fan with a thermostat on the roof either way.
Any thoughts or comments on which is better?

Loathar,
I assume you mean T1-11 plywood siding? If this is the case, fiberglass bat
insulation will be fine for the walls. The roof is another thing. Foamboard will
not give you anywhere near the R value that is needed to keep the building
comfortable. You need at least an R 19.

You say you want to maintain a 50 to 90 degree range... 90 degrees is pretty
warm to be hanging around for any long period of time. And without proper
insulation, your A/C will simply run to be running... it will not be able to compete
with heat... so to speak[8D]. Anyway, I would recommend at least R 13 for the
walls and R 19 for the ceiling. Good luck. Dave

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rick bonfiglio

lothar,

stop trying to fool yourself. that building will not be controllable until insulated properly.

spray 3" of foam on the ceiling, and put batts in the walls.

when i lived in such a structure once, the ice would melt off the ceiling and upper walls; flow down the walls and refreeze about 1/3 the way up from the floor. while the heat was on full blast nonetheless.

That's the problem with fiberglass bats...any condensation (and it will build up between the bats and metal walls) will soak up in it and mold, and it will also hold it against the metal and rust it out. Spray-on foam will keep condensation from forming to begin with. We have two big ( a whole lot bigger than the one in question anyway ) barns, one insulated with 3 1/2 inches of beadboard foam in the walls and 4 inches of low-density spray-on in the ceiling, and the other has 2 1/2 inches of high density foam all the way around...it's airtight except for a little around the overhead door. One of Mr. Heater's burners on low will keep either of them plenty warm even when it's 20 outside. One barn is 40x40 with 12 foot sidewalls, and the other is 24x56x10.

Greg

[Anonymous]

lothar,

stop trying to fool yourself. that building will not be controllable until insulated properly.

spray 3" of foam on the ceiling, and put batts in the walls.

when i lived in such a structure once, the ice would melt off the ceiling and upper walls; flow down the walls and refreeze about 1/3 the way up from the floor. while the heat was on full blast nonetheless.

[bogp40]

Don't use any cellulose blown in for insulation, even if it is above a sealed drywall ceiling. Fiberglass insulation, R30 or 38 batts layed on top of each 2x4 ceiling panel would be the best bet. The blown in would be a horror show for any rework and would never stay above a suspended ceiling and not end up as dust everywhere on the layout. By dropping the ceiling you reduce the cubic ft of space to be heated or cooled. The lowered dropped ceiling would allow for tile removal for any future lighting changes wire pulling etc. Make sure that there is adaquate venting for the loft/ attic space to stop any possible moisture
problems. Stay away from using any poly vapor barriers. Many swear by this method, but today, I have seen another case of major mold/ midew problem at one customer house. This is the 5th time in the past year of finding mold/mildew problems that has been caused by moisture condensating between the poly and the drywall. Over insulating and improper venting is an increasing problem with some of today's stringent building codes. Humidity in your local is probably the greatest concern next to the wild climate changes. I'm glad to see you do a bit of investigation before jumping in to the project.
Bob K.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rails5

I just want to reinforce Greg "Trainwreck"'s observation that "overkill" is NOT the way to go for forced air cooling systems - for exactly the reasons Greg stated. But on the other hand, going a BIT above the rated minimum is good, the equipment won't have to work as hard but it will still de-humidify etc.

Yeah, I'm only 18 but I've learned from theory and experience. My high school came up with the bright @$$ idea of putting a 5-ton unit on each room. Idiots. They also put up "high security" thermostat boxes that you can open with one hand, in fact, most don't close any more. They also used the fancy programmable thermostats that no one knows how to program, so they're always messed up, if they'd used the plain ol' round ones, it would get set once a day and no one would mess with it. I've gotten to the point that I just remove the thermostat from the board and use a paperclip to turn on heat or air.

Greg

[Anonymous]

I just want to reinforce Greg "Trainwreck"'s observation that "overkill" is NOT the way to go for forced air cooling systems - for exactly the reasons Greg stated. But on the other hand, going a BIT above the rated minimum is good, the equipment won't have to work as hard but it will still de-humidify etc.

[rrgrassi]

A radiant barrier would be good along with the suspended ceiling with fiberglass batts. Also, if the roof is metal, apply the white cool seal like they use on metal topped mobile homes. My first non apartment was a trailer house. I put that stuff on the roof and the cooling bill dropped a lot.

[Anonymous]

#1: spray-on polyurethane foam is the best insulation available for price and r-value. 4 inches of low density or 2 1/2 of high density will be more than enough, it's even good enough for Oklahoma weather (that's hard to beat)

#2: overkill isn't such a good thing on what your application is. It won't run the A/C long enough to de-humidify your builiding, and it'll cool it down so fast that it will only run a short time, and the room will warm back up quicker that way. If you have already got the unit, I guess you'll live with it, if you don't--I'd get a smaller one. They're rated that way for a reason.

Greg

[jrbernier]

A drop ceiling will not hold up all of that blown-in insulation(too heavy). I put up 'poly'(vapor barrier), then sheetrocked the ceiling in my garage. You want a vapor barrier between the finish surface and the insulation. Of course I live in Minnesota and have 12" of insulation in the ceiling of my heated garage. Either way, make sure you have some kind of venting so that the insulation does not collect moisture. You might get by with some 3 1/2" fiberglass batt's of insulation over a drop ceiling, but I would think anything more might be too much of a load for those drop ceiling panels.

Jim

[Walter Clot]

loather, Did you buy the station in Columbia?

[UNIONPACIFIC4018]

I myself just did the attic above my garage which is my trainroom and I used R-38 for it. that is what Owens Corning recommended. I would do the drop ceiling and blow in insulation. I think attaching it directly to the metal ceiling would not make a big enough dent.

[Don Z]

loather,

I think more information regarding your building is needed. Are the walls open stud, insulated, sheetrocked, etc.? What about the soffits? Are they ventilated? Is there a ridge vent or gable vent on the roof? Are there ceiling joist in place or just open space up to the rafters?

I would suggest insulating the walls with fiberglass batts and covering with sheetrock, plywood or whatever you prefer....for the ceiling, if the 'attic' space isn't ventilated, I'd go with the drop in ceiling and fiberglass batts laying on top of the ceiling panels. That way you could move the batts to access the attic space for wiring of lights or adding lights.

Just my thoughts..

Don Z.

[loathar]

I have a 400sq.ft. train building.It has a metal roof and T-1 siding and a cement floor. The underside of the roof gets frosty in the winter and about 140 F in the summer.(middle Tn.) I'm planning on putting a 220v AC/heat/dehumidifier unit in this summer.(the one I'm planning on is good for 1000sq. Overkill is good)
NOW, my question, Should I go with a drop ceiling or just slap insulation board to the underside of the metal roof? They are both about the same price. The drop ceiling would be more work, but more visually pleasing and I could put better lighting in closer to the layout. I'm just concerned about its insulating properties.I know I could add blown in insulation above the drop ceiling when it was all done.(I want to maintain a 50F to 90F temp range) I would be putting a 1450 CFM exhaust fan with a thermostat on the roof either way.
Any thoughts or comments on which is better?