Model Railroadings Biggest Crisis

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3

(sigh) What I'm trying to learn here is whether I owe anybody an apology, so let me know... Thanks.

Actually Paul, we were disagreeable with each other, and you certainly don't owe me an apology, because I probably started it.

It was on the Atlas forum, [ I recently quit that forum], and it was regarding Varney, Mantua's etc. significance in MRR history.[:D]
regards \ Mike

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3

(sigh) What I'm trying to learn here is whether I owe anybody an apology, so let me know... Thanks.

Actually Paul, we were disagreeable with each other, and you certainly don't owe me an apology, because I probably started it.

It was on the Atlas forum, [ I recently quit that forum], and it was regarding Varney, Mantua's etc. significance in MRR history.[:D]
regards \ Mike

[the-big-blow]

I can see this from both perspectives, the organization wanting to preserve its name and from the frustration of the eunthusiast. All in all this is just another form of corporate GREED.

[the-big-blow]

I can see this from both perspectives, the organization wanting to preserve its name and from the frustration of the eunthusiast. All in all this is just another form of corporate GREED.

[Paul3]

Mike wrote:

QUOTE: I agree with Paul3, which I often have not done on another forum that I no longer visit.

Um, no offense, but do I know you? Or could you tell me on which forum you found me disagreeable on? I really try to keep from ticking people off, tho' sometimes I can't seem to restrain myself, it seems. (sigh) What I'm trying to learn here is whether I owe anybody an apology, so let me know... Thanks.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Paul3]

Mike wrote:

QUOTE: I agree with Paul3, which I often have not done on another forum that I no longer visit.

Um, no offense, but do I know you? Or could you tell me on which forum you found me disagreeable on? I really try to keep from ticking people off, tho' sometimes I can't seem to restrain myself, it seems. (sigh) What I'm trying to learn here is whether I owe anybody an apology, so let me know... Thanks.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

I agree with Paul3, which I often have not done on another forum that I no longer visit.

I model the B & O and wonder when CSX will see fit to try the old sledgehammer approach again, and this time succeed with 'protecting' all the fallen flags they 'own'.

Given corporate greed ( and increasingly frequent malfeasance), perhaps it's only a matter of time before the "UP's"of the world decide they want a royalty every time a layout with "their'' equipment on it, appears in the model press, or on a commercial video, or at a train show...after all "someone is profiting" from use of their name.....right ?
This isn't far-fetched at all....what a world this has become.
regards / Mike

[Anonymous]

I agree with Paul3, which I often have not done on another forum that I no longer visit.

I model the B & O and wonder when CSX will see fit to try the old sledgehammer approach again, and this time succeed with 'protecting' all the fallen flags they 'own'.

Given corporate greed ( and increasingly frequent malfeasance), perhaps it's only a matter of time before the "UP's"of the world decide they want a royalty every time a layout with "their'' equipment on it, appears in the model press, or on a commercial video, or at a train show...after all "someone is profiting" from use of their name.....right ?
This isn't far-fetched at all....what a world this has become.
regards / Mike

[vsmith]

What a world we are going to leave to our children. Whats next? clearing our kids school projects with the lawyers to make sure no one legal toes are steped on befor ore they are allowded to show and tell? Model manufacturers could alway just produce undecorated models and leave it to the hobbiest to paint them anyway they want. I dont think UP's lawyers are going to stort peeping into model railroaders basements to see whose copyrights they are violating. Wrong or right, the company is being pretty ham-fisted about it.

[vsmith]

What a world we are going to leave to our children. Whats next? clearing our kids school projects with the lawyers to make sure no one legal toes are steped on befor ore they are allowded to show and tell? Model manufacturers could alway just produce undecorated models and leave it to the hobbiest to paint them anyway they want. I dont think UP's lawyers are going to stort peeping into model railroaders basements to see whose copyrights they are violating. Wrong or right, the company is being pretty ham-fisted about it.

[Paul3]

They have the legal rights that we the people (through Congress) give them. If we decide they have none, then that's what they get: nothing. Sure, the odds of that happening are so small that it isn't worth considering, but there are other ways. It's like how CSX was backed down 20 years ago from doing the same thing.

Boycotts and the like will not work unless a major shipper or a politician gets onboard.

However, publically exposing them for the touch they are putting on this hobby might work. After all, they have recently spent big bucks on a TV campaign, and they run their steam and other historic engines and cars for a reason. PR, therefore, does matter to UP, and there they are vulnerable.

Finally, if UP says "no more models", it wouldn't bother me too much. I model New Haven. [:D]

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Paul3]

They have the legal rights that we the people (through Congress) give them. If we decide they have none, then that's what they get: nothing. Sure, the odds of that happening are so small that it isn't worth considering, but there are other ways. It's like how CSX was backed down 20 years ago from doing the same thing.

Boycotts and the like will not work unless a major shipper or a politician gets onboard.

However, publically exposing them for the touch they are putting on this hobby might work. After all, they have recently spent big bucks on a TV campaign, and they run their steam and other historic engines and cars for a reason. PR, therefore, does matter to UP, and there they are vulnerable.

Finally, if UP says "no more models", it wouldn't bother me too much. I model New Haven. [:D]

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

Get real !

"What to do??
Quit modeling the offending roads,"

Yeah - like UP could care!
AMTRAK needs supporters, but not UP (and even AMTRAK charges the fee!).
Quite frankly, UP does not need the MRRing hobby - nor even railfans (who are seen as an annoyance - if not a possible threat!)

"Refuse to buy products shipped on these lines,And be sure the shippers know it!!!"

Gonna stop your electrical service? The majority of electrical power is from coal - and UP hauls a large percentage of that! Gonna stop eating bread and other grain products? UP has a lot of hoppers. Can you even distinguish between other UP rail products and those hauled by BNSF or trucks in the stores? Even if you could, and IF you could get ALL MRRers to go along with this stupidity, would it even make a dent ??? There aren't that many of us (and count ME out!)


"Buy 1 share of stock and visit a stockholders meeting.Voice your opinion."

"You're out of order - sergeant of arms, please remove this person!"
Do you really think the other stockholders would care? They see the law as protecting their investment!


As far as fees go, it goes to pay the annual salary, healthcare and other benefits for the people who review and approve the logo use. Why should UP pick up the tab for doing this? They could just say NO to any such use - that would be cheap!

As far as loco ownership of the older, UP-merged roads go ... do you who owns - and controls - the ROCK ISLAND brand today? MAYTAG! As several folk have found out!

Assuming that the model makers communicate with UP on their products, and that the product reflects UP in a good light (Ie, if a faithful and quality product), I doubt that UP would say "No" to the product. If the model is poor, they SHOULD say NO!

Don't like the process? Want to get UP REALLY mad??

Just remember the alterative is for UP to just say "No more UP models!"

Period.

Like it or not, it's their legal right.

As for me ;;; well, I have all the UP models I want ... and I'm off to better forums with more meaningful topics and polls!

This is a good forum for beginners, but there comes a point where one outgrows it.
If you are feeling the same way, you might try the Atlas, Digitrax or Trainorders forums. Which is where I will be.....

Nice new format, though.

[Anonymous]

Get real !

"What to do??
Quit modeling the offending roads,"

Yeah - like UP could care!
AMTRAK needs supporters, but not UP (and even AMTRAK charges the fee!).
Quite frankly, UP does not need the MRRing hobby - nor even railfans (who are seen as an annoyance - if not a possible threat!)

"Refuse to buy products shipped on these lines,And be sure the shippers know it!!!"

Gonna stop your electrical service? The majority of electrical power is from coal - and UP hauls a large percentage of that! Gonna stop eating bread and other grain products? UP has a lot of hoppers. Can you even distinguish between other UP rail products and those hauled by BNSF or trucks in the stores? Even if you could, and IF you could get ALL MRRers to go along with this stupidity, would it even make a dent ??? There aren't that many of us (and count ME out!)


"Buy 1 share of stock and visit a stockholders meeting.Voice your opinion."

"You're out of order - sergeant of arms, please remove this person!"
Do you really think the other stockholders would care? They see the law as protecting their investment!


As far as fees go, it goes to pay the annual salary, healthcare and other benefits for the people who review and approve the logo use. Why should UP pick up the tab for doing this? They could just say NO to any such use - that would be cheap!

As far as loco ownership of the older, UP-merged roads go ... do you who owns - and controls - the ROCK ISLAND brand today? MAYTAG! As several folk have found out!

Assuming that the model makers communicate with UP on their products, and that the product reflects UP in a good light (Ie, if a faithful and quality product), I doubt that UP would say "No" to the product. If the model is poor, they SHOULD say NO!

Don't like the process? Want to get UP REALLY mad??

Just remember the alterative is for UP to just say "No more UP models!"

Period.

Like it or not, it's their legal right.

As for me ;;; well, I have all the UP models I want ... and I'm off to better forums with more meaningful topics and polls!

This is a good forum for beginners, but there comes a point where one outgrows it.
If you are feeling the same way, you might try the Atlas, Digitrax or Trainorders forums. Which is where I will be.....

Nice new format, though.

[Anonymous]

Ah gawd, hardly the end of the world as we know it! The owner of a Trade Mark has the right to protect it. Petty stuff? Yep, Breath slow, think happy thoughts, remember, Set and Setting.....

[Anonymous]

Ah gawd, hardly the end of the world as we know it! The owner of a Trade Mark has the right to protect it. Petty stuff? Yep, Breath slow, think happy thoughts, remember, Set and Setting.....

[Anonymous]

Thankyou PAUL3, now I feel that my bringing this up on the forum wasn't a futile gesture. You know, there been so much Corp Greed in this country this past year, you would think that UP would just naturally say and think, "well maybe this is going to look like another example of Corporations trying to grab $$$$$ that their really not entitled to", " maybe this isn't such a good idea after all"., but knowing the Corporate Psychi of the 90's, I really doubt it. I agree, we're only seeing the tip of the iceburg and anyone who thinks differant are only fooling themselves[V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][:(!][:(!][:(!]

[Anonymous]

Thankyou PAUL3, now I feel that my bringing this up on the forum wasn't a futile gesture. You know, there been so much Corp Greed in this country this past year, you would think that UP would just naturally say and think, "well maybe this is going to look like another example of Corporations trying to grab $$$$$ that their really not entitled to", " maybe this isn't such a good idea after all"., but knowing the Corporate Psychi of the 90's, I really doubt it. I agree, we're only seeing the tip of the iceburg and anyone who thinks differant are only fooling themselves[V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][:(!][:(!][:(!]

[Paul3]

Guys, the real problems I have with UP's actions:

1) They are asking for money, which they do not have to do. They could make manufacturers sign up for free, or at worst, a small one time fee per model to cover UP's costs. They fact that they are asking for a continuous money income from model makers is wrong, IMHO, or at the very least it is harmful both to manufaturers and we consumers who end up paying more for items because of it.

2) That they are not only trying to liscense thier own brand (UP), but also all possible predecessors, like CNW, SP, etc. all the way back to the beginning of railroading. Why? I can see the need to protect their own image, but why protect all these old defunct RR logos that will never see the light of day again? What possible benefit can UP get from that? What's really amusing is that on their first announcement, they actually listed a railroad or two that they didn't even own!

3) The pre-approval process. If you read UP's website, you'll see that all model manufacturers must submit the finished retail product (not a mock-up, nor even a pre-production model) to the UP legal dept. Only after UP approves it can the manufacturer actually sell the model. This means that if UP ever says "no", a manufacturer will find himself in the hole, big time, after he's spent all that money to actually make the product in UP (or UP predecessor) colors. Think about it. What if UP had said no to Kato's SD90MAC after Kato had made thousands of them? Kato would have to eat the cost and destroy or repaint all the shells. Could Kato survive such a financial hit?

Quite simply, if UP asked for a small one-time fee per model for their own colors and not all the predecessors, and if they would accept a mock-up or pre-production model before the manufacturer went and made them, then this subject would quietly fade away as all the others who do so (Amtrak, etc.).

But since UP is asking for a piece of the pie and holds the threat of financial ruination over any model manufacturer of UP or UP predessor products, I find their behavior reprehensible.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Paul3]

Guys, the real problems I have with UP's actions:

1) They are asking for money, which they do not have to do. They could make manufacturers sign up for free, or at worst, a small one time fee per model to cover UP's costs. They fact that they are asking for a continuous money income from model makers is wrong, IMHO, or at the very least it is harmful both to manufaturers and we consumers who end up paying more for items because of it.

2) That they are not only trying to liscense thier own brand (UP), but also all possible predecessors, like CNW, SP, etc. all the way back to the beginning of railroading. Why? I can see the need to protect their own image, but why protect all these old defunct RR logos that will never see the light of day again? What possible benefit can UP get from that? What's really amusing is that on their first announcement, they actually listed a railroad or two that they didn't even own!

3) The pre-approval process. If you read UP's website, you'll see that all model manufacturers must submit the finished retail product (not a mock-up, nor even a pre-production model) to the UP legal dept. Only after UP approves it can the manufacturer actually sell the model. This means that if UP ever says "no", a manufacturer will find himself in the hole, big time, after he's spent all that money to actually make the product in UP (or UP predecessor) colors. Think about it. What if UP had said no to Kato's SD90MAC after Kato had made thousands of them? Kato would have to eat the cost and destroy or repaint all the shells. Could Kato survive such a financial hit?

Quite simply, if UP asked for a small one-time fee per model for their own colors and not all the predecessors, and if they would accept a mock-up or pre-production model before the manufacturer went and made them, then this subject would quietly fade away as all the others who do so (Amtrak, etc.).

But since UP is asking for a piece of the pie and holds the threat of financial ruination over any model manufacturer of UP or UP predessor products, I find their behavior reprehensible.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

Its only the beginning of the things Lawyers will be doing to us over the next 20-30 years.They are out of control!!We graduate 20 lawyers for every engineer in this country.What to do??
Quit modeling the offending roads,Refuse to buy products shipped on these lines,And be sure the shippers know it!!!Buy 1 share of stock and visit a stockholders meeting.Voice your opinion.Buying that share mat get you information not otherwise available to the public.Then,Make it Public!!

[Anonymous]

Its only the beginning of the things Lawyers will be doing to us over the next 20-30 years.They are out of control!!We graduate 20 lawyers for every engineer in this country.What to do??
Quit modeling the offending roads,Refuse to buy products shipped on these lines,And be sure the shippers know it!!!Buy 1 share of stock and visit a stockholders meeting.Voice your opinion.Buying that share mat get you information not otherwise available to the public.Then,Make it Public!!

[Anonymous]

Guess we'll just have to see how this thing goes over the nxt year.

[Anonymous]

Guess we'll just have to see how this thing goes over the nxt year.

[BR60103]

This is a complete about-face from the time (1950?) when Lionel got Santa Fe, New York Central and GM to pay the costs of producing their F7. And I think that Sunoco paid them for tank cars.
Chessie tried this copyright/royalty bit abot 20 years ago; I don't remember how that petered out.
The worst problem would be if they insisted on having copyright or trademark symbols on models that don't appear on the prototype.

[BR60103]

This is a complete about-face from the time (1950?) when Lionel got Santa Fe, New York Central and GM to pay the costs of producing their F7. And I think that Sunoco paid them for tank cars.
Chessie tried this copyright/royalty bit abot 20 years ago; I don't remember how that petered out.
The worst problem would be if they insisted on having copyright or trademark symbols on models that don't appear on the prototype.

[Anonymous]

Really! This is the first time I've heard about this, but I first heard something about this UP thing about a week or two ago. I don't remember in what context but I didn't like the sound of it then and I still don't. It's like these big companies aren't making enough money, and now they want ours too, where will it end. I figured maybe Coke and maybe John Deere might be charging something but I wasn't sure. It just doesn't sound all that ethical. Just where does one step over the line? I really think it's a very fine and very obscure line and not one to be taken lightly. To those who are old to remember, 1934. Need I say more.[:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][V][V][V]

[Anonymous]

Really! This is the first time I've heard about this, but I first heard something about this UP thing about a week or two ago. I don't remember in what context but I didn't like the sound of it then and I still don't. It's like these big companies aren't making enough money, and now they want ours too, where will it end. I figured maybe Coke and maybe John Deere might be charging something but I wasn't sure. It just doesn't sound all that ethical. Just where does one step over the line? I really think it's a very fine and very obscure line and not one to be taken lightly. To those who are old to remember, 1934. Need I say more.[:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][V][V][V]

[Anonymous]

I agree with Christian - the user fees are not the death of MRRing. Has it stopped anyone from buying Athearn (Walhers) AMTRAK P42s in phase V ?? Or their Coke, John Deere or USPS products? You are paying a fee on these NOW! And I note that P2K has not eliminated UP locos from their future product line.

This article sounds like it was written in the best National Enquirer style!

I would worry more about the impact on the hobby of the loss of beginner-level priced locos and rolling stock kits! Athearn Blue Boxs are quickly evaporating - many locos are no longer available except on e-Bay - for now! And there has been a corresponding rapid growth and price inflation of R-T-R products ($600 steamers being the latest). We seem to be headed toward a "plastic brass" market where only a few can afford to buy.