Back-dating a model railroad to the 1920's.

[Anonymous]

Mark,

Thanks for the clarification on the Class 1 trackage. There were dozens of little railways all over Canada at that time, which were either in decline or on the verge of bankruptcy. Seems that WW1 was not as much of a boom for railways here as in the US. This situation lead to the creation of Canadian Government Railways, which became Canadian National in the early 1920s (in order to avoid the monopoly of Candian Pacific).

I stand by my assertion that the majority of the population did not have phones or electricity, those in cities not withstanding (what is appropriate will depend on the specifics of his layout). And my comments about the "guy with the shovel" was intended to illustrate the point that much more labour was done by hand than most people today would believe. Much of what was "hard labour" seems to be accomplished these days by one guy in a machine of some sort, and 6 other guys leaning on the shovels... [;)]

Good point about the historical society. We are definitely in agreement there... [:)]

Andrew

[rolleiman]

Another great place to look is the US Library of Congress website.. Particularly, The Detroit Publishing collection where you'll find many photos of buildings, trains, the life as it was, and it looks like they are even adding original plans when available..

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/detroit/

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by masonjar

Mark and Texas Zephyr,
I did not say those things did not exist, but the majority of the population did not live in cities, and the majority of railroads were not "Class 1".

Sorry but you did say these things did not exist. Quoting from your post, you wrote:

Little or no evidence of electricity....No utility poles connected to the houses.

no phones (well, maybe one of those new-fangled inventions at the station).

no clamshell to fill your steam servicing sand house - just a guy with a shovel...! Certainly no backhoes, front end loaders or forklifts.

And the majority of railroads were Class Ones, according to the ICC's definition. There were 113 Class 1s in 1925, comprising 96% of the total US railroad mileage. That's a majority. The B&O was unarguably a Class One at the time in question.

QUOTE: Urban facilities that belonged to Class 1 roads would almost certainly have had the latest technology - especially in the "Roaring 20s" before the stock market crash.

Not just urban facilities. Many division points in rural areas were modernised during or just after WW1. There is ample photographic and documentary evidence of this.

QUOTE: The best way for Nevin to backdate his layout beyond all of our generalities is to look for photos and other accounts of the time specific to his prototype and/or protoype inspiration.

Absolutely. Or even join the Beano historical society...

All the best,

Mark.

[NevinW]

Thanks for everyones responses to my questions. This sounds very doable. fortunately I have a good library of B&O and WM books and should be about to correctly back-date the railroad equipment. I found out last night that Bowser is making a Western Maryland hopper with the correct earlier paint scheme before the bulleye. Anyone know when the Fireball was added to the engines? I should know but I can't remember. I love Westerfield kits. It looks like Model T's are available according the Walthers. Living in West Virginia, I've seen Matewan about 8 times. When I go to Timonium on the 4th I am going to explore this issue further. This could be really fun. - Nevin

[MidlandPacific]

The authoritative source of information on the railroad's physical plant would be the ICC valuation report. Congress allowed the railroads to return only a fixed percentage of their total value to stockholders as profit, and it authorized the ICC to conduct a top-to-bottom valuation of every railroad in the country. I can't remember the specifics, but the valuations were done in the late teens and periodically updated after that. You may be able to get them from the National Archives, the B&O Railroad Museum in Baltimore, or a local historical society.

[Anonymous]

Mark and Texas Zephyr,

I did not say those things did not exist, but the majority of the population did not live in cities, and the majority of railroads were not "Class 1".

Even in large cities, there were downtown stables full of horses that pulled delivery wagons, there were outhouses in the backyards of the many houses, and the telephone was a (growing to be sure but still) new technology. People still lit their homes with gas or liquid fuel lamps. In some cities, municipally provided water and sewage were established.

Urban facilities that belonged to Class 1 roads would almost certainly have had the latest technology - especially in the "Roaring 20s" before the stock market crash.

The best way for Nevin to backdate his layout beyond all of our generalities is to look for photos and other accounts of the time specific to his prototype and/or protoype inspiration. Urban and rural were indeed very different worlds - more so than today.

Andrew

[MidlandPacific]

Another thought - for a lot of decent-quality 1920s photos, Time-Life did a picture-history series called "Our American Century." Each volume covers a decade, and there's lots of pop-culture level detail.

QUOTE: http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?qwork=3417857&wtit=our%20american%20century&matches=14&qsort=r&cm_re=works*listing*title

[Anonymous]

Electrification of the towns along the Cincinnati, Georgetown & Portsmouth was directly related to the railroad. In the Teens the road went electric. They needed to build a generating station about every 10 miles. Since the trains only ran during the daytime these generating stations had lots of excess capacity in the evening and night which was sold to the towns for lighting. When the railroad failed during the Depression several of the towns bought the generating stations and continued to operate them so the townspeople could continue to tune in to "Fibber McGee & Molly" At least one town still operated their own power company. (Bethel Power & Light they no longer generate their own but resell power purchased off the national grid & maintain their own infrastructure) (Fibber & Molly was still being broadcast by WVXU, a Cincinnati NPR affiliate up to last year)

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by masonjar

Lots of manual labour to do things - For example - no clamshell to fill your steam servicing sand house - just a guy with a shovel...! Certainly no backhoes, front end loaders or forklifts.
RR servicing would of course be set up to serve mostly steam (there were a few diesels around, and oil-electric contraptions like doodlebugs for passenger/mixed service). That means water towers and/or standpipes, sand houses with outside bins, (mostly wooden) coal towers, and turntables

I disagree. By the 1920s urban and/or industrialised areas were nowhere near as undeveloped as you seem to think they were. In particular, medium to large engine terminals were being modernised, with numerous mechanical aids replacing manual labour. Numerous photos I've seen of such terminals on Class 1s during the 20s disprove your statement. The guy with a shovel would be more likely found in a branchline terminal, or on a shortline with no spare cash for improving the plant. Likewise, steel or concrete coal towers were becoming quite common by the early 1920s.

Mechnical material handling equipment was also well established by the 1920s. Examples of all the machinery types you mentioned, or their equivalents, were produced in the 1920s.

All the best,

Mark.

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NevinW

I currenly model the B&O through Morgantown in the 1950's with B&O and WM F7's, sharks and some late steam. I am toying with the idea of backdating it to the 1920's after looking at a bunch of George Sello's photos of his F&SM (gasp!). Before the B&O bought it out, the Morgantown and Kingwood RR interchanged with the B&O at Morgantown and it would be fun to model it as a separate railroad. Has anyone backdated their railroad and what did you think? Was it worth it? Anyone model the 1920's? Besides railroad equipment what else did you change? How hard is it to acquire autos from that era? Thoughts? - Nevin

I built my layout so that it's versitile, and can be changed from one era to another in a matter of minutes by changing out a few structures, the automobiles and trains.
I was only successful with going back as far as the early 1930s because those were the oldest automobiles I could find in quantity...

Tracklayer

[route_rock]

20's had electricity in some rural areas. My great grandfather was a leading investor in Frank and Toms ( not sure if thats the true name but it was just two local guys who started the first power company) electric company. It in turn became Sherrard Power and was bought out by Iowa Illinois and then Mid America.
I agree I love this era! I am going 1903 to 1920 so I can have all my wants.Old Model T's ( any color you want as long as its black) maybe some Alco cars ( yes they made cars) and a local company named Velie. Switchmen at every switch. 6 man train crews.Caboose's with areas for passengers. and Cattle trains with a car for the cowboys horses! Ohhhhhh yes what a great time.

[jecorbett]

Nothing sets the era better than advertising signs. Billboards, store front signs, etc.
Some products are period specific while others are timeless but advertising and logos change quite a bit over time. For example, I can remember when Cracker Jacks came in a white box. That goes back to the 1950s. This will take quite a bit of research to get it accurate but that could be half the fun. Also little things like stop signs being yellow with black lettering. In some places, the black lettering was over a white rectangular field with the yellow above and below it. Traffic lights would be pole mounted rather than overhead. Home delivery of ice would be a core business as well as dairy products. Homes would have a milk box on the porch to take deliveries. Don't forget a Western Union office as telegrams were the e-mail of the day. These are just a few things off the top of my head.

[bwftex]

Hi Nevin,
I model the Texas Midland RR 1910-1920 era. I think you will find much of what you will need just by looking around on the net or in a Walthers catalog. Structures are plentiful and so are detail items. For rolling stock it may be a little more difficult to find RTR items but there are plenty of kits. Just a few would be from companies like Westerfield, Sunshine, Labelle, Ye Old Huff and Puff. Also scratch building rolling stock for this era is much more easy than building modern cars. If you get some old copies of MR especially from the 40’s and 50’s you’ll find plenty of projects and info that apply to the 1920’s era.

Locomotives are my main problem as outside of brass there are none suitable for my railroad except for the Bachmann Spectrum 4-6-0's and they need new cabs, domes, oil tender conversions, and running gear modifications. The two 4-6-0's are my only Prototypical power right now. The Spectrum 4-4-0 thats supposed to come in about a year will be a real good fit with only minor bashing and tender conversions needed. I'll wait and get two of those. The other 4-6-0 and 2-8-0 that I want will have to be brass so I'll just have to keep an eye out on Ebay.

With your B&O prototype you’ll have a better choice of readily available locomotives and a wider selection of brass models. You certainly won’t be limited to just small steam locomotives.

It’s great to see others taking an interest in older steam. Bruce

[howmus]

Hey, My era! 1925 here on the Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western. In New York State, according to what my parents told me, Rural Electrification happened in the 1930's. I remember crawling up into the attic in our old 1800's Farm House and seeing the original peg insulators and strung single wires still in place (and still being used.....) that were part of the installation of electricity in the house. We still had gas jets on the walls that were used for lighting before electrification. In town, they had electric power I believe in the teens.

Jordon Models are about the best period kits I have seen. Heck, they are just about the only ones that have that period...... The kits are moderate to nearly impossible to do, although I found them fun and will do many more when I regain my patience. LOL For the cars in the early 1920's you have a huge choice of Ford Model T's and , uh, Ford Model T's, and of course there are those very attractive Ford Model T's. They come in a choice of colors too. Let's see there is Black, and, uh, hmmm. Yep they come in Black. There is a Model T postal truck that is in post office green or something like that, but the other Model T's are Black. I cheated and put a Model A on the layout (they weren't made prior to 1928 or 1929) but I won't tell if you don't. My Father was still driving his Model A when I was Born (1946). I actually remember the car. They also come in an attractive Black color. There is a couple versions of the old WW1 Mack Trucks, a Diamond Rio truck and a few other period cars.

[timthechef]

I'm modeling the 1920's, and have been doing a lot of research on the era (since I'm not old enough to have seen it!). One of the things that I'm doing on my layout is my streets in town are paved with cobblestone and any out of town are dirt. I have gotten some fine kits from Jordan for horse and buggy and cars. Manual laber was definatly king, there was plenty of cheap labor available.

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: I think I've said this a million times on this forum:

Please do NOT get your history lessons from Hollywood!

Relax - those other 999,999 posts weren't wasted. I didn't tell him to get his history from the movies: I told him to watch them.

There are a lot of reasons for a modeler to be interested in those movies - George Sellios modeled a corner of his layout on the opening scene of The Sting, and there are plenty of interesting atmospheric moments in Matewan, some of which take place in a railroad yard.

So yes, although I concede (and never maintained otherwise) that the movies are imperfect, I'm not prepared to send the infant go bouncing down the wet concrete steps just yet, OK?

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger
And while you're at it, watch Matewan, The Sting, and Paper Moon.

I think I've said this a million times on this forum:

Please do NOT get your history lessons from Hollywood!

Hollywood is in the business to tell a yarn, reality be ***ed. I know this from personal experience working with those twits. There has not been a period movie yet that's anywhere near 100% accurate. Even Casablanca has inaccuracies, and that movie was supposed to be about the (then) present day!

Even GOOD movies about the 1920s like "Road to Perdition" (much better than "The Sting" for accuracy) is chock full of inaccuracies.

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by masonjar
[
Signs will need to be changed to advertise things from the 1920s instead of 1950s - also street signs will need to be changed, as well as road markings (white line in the middle where appropriate, and no shoulder lines at all).

1920's Few paved roads outside the cities, road marking none.

In the 1950's white striping predominated. There were centerlines on main rural roads, but few ubran streets (even main ones) were stripped.

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: Not everyone had indoor plumbing, electricity, phones, cars, etc.

On my way through Pennsylvania (Biglerville, actually) the other week, I stopped next to a sign commemorating the founding of the local rural electrical company. Fewer than 10% of rural Pennsylvania homes had electricity in 1940.

There are lots of great websites for historical photos - the Denver Public Library is one of my favorites.

And while you're at it, watch Matewan, The Sting, and Paper Moon.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by masonjar
[Other changes:

Little or no evidence of electricity. Few outdoor lights. No utility poles connected to the houses.

You'll still need telegraph wires, but no phones (well, maybe one of those new-fangled
inventions at the station).

I think that is off a couple decades [B)]. In the US that may have been true way out in the country, but not for cities. In fact, it was just the opposite there was a huge demand for electric power and phone service, so much so that there were electric and phone wires strung around everywhere. The sky was darkened because of all the overhead wires. Around 1900 citiies began banning the addition of new overhead wires.

Photo below is dated 1900 -


Even out here in the western cow town of Denver, by 1929 the Mountain States Telephone & Telegraphy Company had enough customers (eg wires to houses) to demand the need for a 14 story building (tallest in Denver at the time, well I think it was the tallest in Denver until the 1960s).

[MisterBeasley]

If you don't have too many buildings and other structures, you might consider "double-timing" your layout. Get a second copy of some of the structures for the 1920 layout, and make them look "newer" than the 1950's ones. Replace any buildings that are clearly 1940-1950 vintage with old run-down shacks. Every now and then, swap the buildings, engines and rolling stock and go back to 1950. (Can you do it well enough to make the pages of MR? It would be a nice feature.)

[orsonroy]

One point: George Sellios doesn't model the 1920s, he models the 1930s.

That said, I backdated a few years ago, and loved it. I'm all about history, so had no interest in modeling the current (if I wanted to see Macs & Stacks, I'd go railfanning). I also started down the path of prototype modeling at the same time, and started doing lots of research. My current layout efforts are now geared towards accurately modeling a specific mainline in 1949. Problem is, I actually prefer the rolling stock of earlier eras, so have begun to slide further back in time, heading towards 1925 or so.

There's LOTS available for post-WWII modeling. Almost anything "steam era", with the exception of most steel boxcars and a very few steam engines, is appropriate. Autos are easier to find for the 1920-1930 period than they are for the 1940-1950 period!

One thing that you'll want to do is to get a good feel for the period. It was VERY different in the USA 80 years ago. Not everyone had indoor plumbing, electricity, phones, cars, etc. Sheds and wood fences were literally everywhere. The majority of roads were mud. Horse draw vehicles were still a daily sight, and they usually looked nothing like what you think they looked like. Walls were covered with signs, utility poles crisscrossed every urban area in a very dense pattern, and every male over 16 wore a hat & tie (yes, even most engine crews). One of the things that I did to study the period was to Google "old photos" several times over a year. I lifted over eight THOUSAND images from the 1880-1940 period, and skipped thousands more. It's the best single reference I have as to how the good old days actually looked.

[Anonymous]

Jordan makes excellent kits of period vehicles - cars, trucks, vans, and wagons. But you will not need a lot of the "infernal comustion" types unless you have a big city on your layout.

Other changes:

Little or no evidence of electricity. Clothes on clothes lines, not in dryers. Few outdoor lights. No utility poles connected to the houses.

You'll still need telegraph wires, but no phones (well, maybe one of those new-fangled inventions at the station).

Lots of manual labour to do things - For example - no clamshell to fill your steam servicing sand house - just a guy with a shovel...! Certainly no backhoes, front end loaders or forklifts.

Signs will need to be changed to advertise things from the 1920s instead of 1950s - also street signs will need to be changed, as well as road markings (white line in the middle where appropriate, and no shoulder lines at all).

Evidence of no indoor plumbing, at least in residences and smaller, older buildings. You'll need a "backhouse" and probably a pump in the yard, as there was not a lot of indoor plumbing.

I think you would be safe running billboard reefers too.

No concrete "tilt-up" type warehouse buildings, or even Quonset huts (those large corregated metal "half-pipe" buildings). They were post WW2.

RR servicing would of course be set up to serve mostly steam (there were a few diesels around, and oil-electric contraptions like doodlebugs for passenger/mixed service). That means water towers and/or standpipes, sand houses with outside bins, (mostly wooden) coal towers, and turntables.

That's all I can think of for now. Sounds like an interesting project!

Andrew

[wjstix]

One problem is almost all autos from that era in HO are available only in kit form, CMW and others generally only go back to about 1940. But then I remember showing my dad picks of a layout set in the thirties (he was born in 1918) and he said there were way too many autos in the layout, most people walked or used the streetcar in a big city.

There are quite a few good steam engines available now, and many good freight cars. Walthers makes quite a few woodside and early steel cars, and the MDC/Athearn 36' boxcars and reefers would have been fairly common in the twenties.

You could consider sometype of rotation, much of your layout's scenery, buildings etc. would be the same in the twenties as the fifties, so you could shift between the two.

[MidlandPacific]

Lots of period autos available - and agriculture was in those days still largely horse powered.

Clothing was distinctly different - hat styles (and even wear). Women's fashions are also very distinct.

I think when you're modeling a given period, you should familiarize yourself thoroughly with the era about 5-10 years before your target year - so for a layout set in 1923, you should aim for a lot of hardware and architecture from the teens.

[NevinW]

I currenly model the B&O through Morgantown in the 1950's with B&O and WM F7's, sharks and some late steam. I am toying with the idea of backdating it to the 1920's after looking at a bunch of George Sello's photos of his F&SM (gasp!). Before the B&O bought it out, the Morgantown and Kingwood RR interchanged with the B&O at Morgantown and it would be fun to model it as a separate railroad. Has anyone backdated their railroad and what did you think? Was it worth it? Anyone model the 1920's? Besides railroad equipment what else did you change? How hard is it to acquire autos from that era? Thoughts? - Nevin