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Jealous of N-scalers

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Posted by davekelly on Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:52 PM
[#ditto][#ditto] Well said. The ultimate would be a devise that would allow one to make models in O or G and then shrink them down to N. Now that would be cool.
If you ain't having fun, you're not doing it right and if you are having fun, don't let anyone tell you you're doing it wrong.
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Posted by ericmanke on Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:39 PM
I recently made the switch to N because of space considerations, and I will one day return to HO. It wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. I thought as well that I could proportionately shrink stuff down, but it hasn't worked out that way. I have found that I've been forced to make compromises to my detail levels because of how small the stuff is. Availability is also an issue. Unless you are a good scratchbuilder/kitbasher you are bound to see at least 3 structures from Pikestuff, Walthers, City Classics on a layout. There is just not the variety that is available in HO. All things considered, my switch was a necessity to take me outta the armchair, which was is a good thing. I really don't envy any scale. Each presents it own positives and challenges.
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Posted by SMassey on Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:22 PM
I love HO and my wife likes the N stuff we dont fight about what is best but we both have our opinions. Yes I could do more with N scale in the small space that I have to work with but that is not what I wanted. I just had to fit as much as I could into the space I had and go from there. I got my intermodal yard and pier. Could I get them both and model a modern containership port? nope not enought space so I settled with an old 1950s crane in a sleepy little town that puts a few containers on and off a river barge. With any scale at any time there will have to be compromises made for the space, time and money that you have to work with.

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Posted by waltersrails on Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:37 PM
true but ho is easyier to handle.
I like NS but CSX has the B&O.
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Posted by TrainFreak409 on Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:33 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

Wait unitl you get my age and you need bifocals then you will be jealous of O gauge!


That's why N scale should be done before that point is reached. [swg]

As a model railroader gets older, you could increase your scale as such, and then you experience all scales.[:D]

Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern

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Posted by pcarrell on Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:30 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Why is it that when laying out track curves HO is sooooooo big, but when painting window frames, figures etc HO is sooooo small?


I've said the same thing, and I'm in N.
Philip
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Posted by davekelly on Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:54 AM
Why is it that when laying out track curves HO is sooooooo big, but when painting window frames, figures etc HO is sooooo small?
If you ain't having fun, you're not doing it right and if you are having fun, don't let anyone tell you you're doing it wrong.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 19, 2006 9:52 AM
I'm not jealous of N scale at all. I don't have anything against it, either. I just know when I get older, I'll bre glad I went with On30.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 19, 2006 8:57 AM
QUOTE: OK, maybe I’m a bit slow here, but both these replies have me doing a big: HUH???? I just don’t understand what you guys are trying to say.


Maybe kchronister used the wrong word. What he mentioned were not "negative" problems, but positive challenges.

Simply put, when moving from HO to N, you don't actually gain twice the space for stuff because you need the same size aisles and the 24" rule still applies. You don't simply double everything in an HO plan to make it an N scale plan. That would waste the new available space.

You have a different space and a different opportunity to excel in track planning. [;)]

You can use the extra space for more track, for larger yards, for more scenery, for bigger radii, for more structures, etc, hence the "problem." But it isn't a negative problem, it's a positive challenge to use the space available.

Mike Tennent
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Posted by ndbprr on Thursday, January 19, 2006 8:57 AM
Wait unitl you get my age and you need bifocals then you will be jealous of O gauge!
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Posted by icmr on Thursday, January 19, 2006 8:44 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dannydd

QUOTE: Originally posted by tangerine-jack

Why even think about N? I found that you can either wish for more space that you will never get, or do something with the space you have.
Where does your heart lie- HO or G, um excuse me I meant HO or N?


And if you had all the space you wanted, you couldn't fini***he whole lot before you died anyway!


[#ditto]



Victor

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]
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Posted by ddechamp71 on Thursday, January 19, 2006 8:31 AM
QUOTE: I'm doing N-scale,and I'm jealous of Z-scalers! heh,just kidding.


And myself, as a Z-scaler, I'm less and less jealous of N-scalers as in my favourite scale choice has been increasing dramatically for the five last years......[:D]

Dominique
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 19, 2006 7:08 AM
I wish I could model in N Scale because I don't have much room. I don't becasue I all ready have a lot of HO stuff and I don't think I will be able to find all of the stuff I need because this is a very uncommon railroad.
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Posted by MAbruce on Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:56 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tracklayer

Scale really doesn't matter in a situation like yours. It's more of a room issue...

Tracklayer (N scaler - for now.)


Good point... I often hear people say "oh, well if N-scale is half the size, I can have twice the layout in the same space"

Not true.

First of all, their math is off. Geometrically, you should be able to get FOUR times the layout into the same space. (a one-inch-per-side square is one square inch, a two-inch-per-side square is four square inches...)

But theory and practice differ.

One problem is that we're all 1:1 scale. We need the same aisle widths regardless of scale. We need to be able to keep our "reach" on the layout to 24" or so, regardless of scale.

Another problem is that while going down in scale allows you to cram more track in the same space... it can also allow you to ease your curves, use larger number turnouts, etc. In many cases the "best" way to convert a layout from HO to N is not to add a bunch of new track, but rather keep the same basic track plan with less-unprototypical curves, a double- instead of single-track mainline, etc. That's probably a very good idea, but you don't get "4 times" the layout.

I was reading an old "starting a toy train layout" book I came across, and when talking about scale, the author said "N scale is good for people who want to run very long trains and be able to have their scenery tower over the trains"... A bit trite and over-generalization... But also not the worst way to consider it. It's all about what _you_ want out of it.

At the end of the day, I still say it boils down to a very subjective decision. If N is equally pleasing to you as HO, then you should probably consider N strongly, regardless of space... Even if you have a 5,000 sq. ft. train room, you will never model anything close to prototypical distances anyhow, and N will always let you fit "more" into a given space.




OK, maybe I’m a bit slow here, but both these replies have me doing a big: HUH???? I just don’t understand what you guys are trying to say.

Taking a look at what CARRfan wrote, he’s frustrated because he feels the space he’s working with will not accommodate all he wants to do with his layout in HO. Without knowing exactly what he has in mind (other than what he wants on the layout), he makes the statement that it would be easier to accommodate his wishes in N-scale. Why would this not be a true statement?

QUOTE: One problem is that we're all 1:1 scale. We need the same aisle widths regardless of scale. We need to be able to keep our "reach" on the layout to 24" or so, regardless of scale.


Problem? Why? The 24” rule is certainly a wise approach, but couldn’t modeling in a smaller scale give you the option to either model it a smaller space (yielding more isle width) or model more in the 24”? I don’t see problems – I see a greater range of options for this situation.

QUOTE: Another problem is that while going down in scale allows you to cram more track in the same space... it can also allow you to ease your curves, use larger number turnouts, etc..


Wow, I never thought that either “cramming” (which a rather extreme word to use) more track in the same space, easing curves, or being able to use more turnouts could be a “problem”. Perhaps maybe if you have a tight budget?

N-scale is certainly not for everyone, and has its share of disadvantages, but I would not call the range of options discussed here as “problems.”

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Posted by SimRacin40 on Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:48 AM
I'm doing N-scale,and I'm jealous of Z-scalers! heh,just kidding. I like the room I get with N-scale. I thought about HO until I realized how much room I was going to need for what I was looking for,plus I had some N-scale equipment in the attic already,so my decision was kinda made already,which was fine for me.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:41 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by tangerine-jack

Why even think about N? I found that you can either wish for more space that you will never get, or do something with the space you have.
Where does your heart lie- HO or G, um excuse me I meant HO or N?


And if you had all the space you wanted, you couldn't fini***he whole lot before you died anyway!
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Posted by tangerine-jack on Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:22 AM
Why even think about N? I found that you can either wish for more space that you will never get, or do something with the space you have. There have been too many very nice HO layouts in the space you mentioned to even think about going to N if you don't really want to. If I remember correctly, Jim Findley's Tioga Pass was about 12x4? It was in a back room of a mobile home and was an exceptional model railroad, you didn't notice it wasn't big at all.

Now I will give my mandatory G scale plug, you have enough room to go G scale and have a nice layout. Granted, long trains are out, but it can be done and done well in that amount of space.

Where does your heart lie- HO or G, um excuse me I meant HO or N?

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:11 AM
the problem us N guys is that if you where to halve the size of your layout,(in other words, make a direct N replica) it would look very cramped! so we have to run with similar construction limits to radius, ect. there was an interesting article in MR a while ago......bout that issue. Danny
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:06 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Tracklayer

Scale really doesn't matter in a situation like yours. It's more of a room issue...

Tracklayer (N scaler - for now.)


Good point... I often hear people say "oh, well if N-scale is half the size, I can have twice the layout in the same space"

Not true.

First of all, their math is off. Geometrically, you should be able to get FOUR times the layout into the same space. (a one-inch-per-side square is one square inch, a two-inch-per-side square is four square inches...)

But theory and practice differ.

One problem is that we're all 1:1 scale. We need the same aisle widths regardless of scale. We need to be able to keep our "reach" on the layout to 24" or so, regardless of scale.

Another problem is that while going down in scale allows you to cram more track in the same space... it can also allow you to ease your curves, use larger number turnouts, etc. In many cases the "best" way to convert a layout from HO to N is not to add a bunch of new track, but rather keep the same basic track plan with less-unprototypical curves, a double- instead of single-track mainline, etc. That's probably a very good idea, but you don't get "4 times" the layout.

I was reading an old "starting a toy train layout" book I came across, and when talking about scale, the author said "N scale is good for people who want to run very long trains and be able to have their scenery tower over the trains"... A bit trite and over-generalization... But also not the worst way to consider it. It's all about what _you_ want out of it.

At the end of the day, I still say it boils down to a very subjective decision. If N is equally pleasing to you as HO, then you should probably consider N strongly, regardless of space... Even if you have a 5,000 sq. ft. train room, you will never model anything close to prototypical distances anyhow, and N will always let you fit "more" into a given space.

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:56 PM
Interesting thoughts guys - it's a "grass is always greener" mentality, certainly.

I hear you kchronister. I spent several years just reading MR a few years back, without a layout. I'd literally gone a couple years without seeing a layout in person. Then I saw an N scale layout in person for the first time in a few years, and was blown away by the size. Just seeing it in magazines, you could forget how small it is because the detail is so great these days.

One option would be to change what I'm trying to do - just eliminate any sort of passenger activity. That would be a bummer though!
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Posted by jnichols on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:54 PM
Don't be jealous of us, join us... [#welcome]

The space constraint issue is what started me in N scale in the first place, and I soon learned that you could model a pretty decent railroad in very little space within this scale. Honestly, unless you just want a small switching layout, I don't see you having enough room for an HO scale layout. I operate weekly at an HO scale club of sorts, and even in his 18' X 30' room using around the wall construction, the layout feels small to me.

Jeff

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:52 PM
I suffer the same envy at times, CARRfan, so I sympathize.

But I've seriously pondered N-scale at times, and the reasons I've stayed HO remain valid. They're admittedly very personal and subjective: I simply don't find N-scale pleasing on a visceral level. Something about it is just too small and doesn't "do it" for me the way HO does. To me, HO is about as small as I can go and still feel like I have a connection to the layout. I'm not explaining well, but perhaps you take my meaning.

Not to mention that my stubby fat fingers have enough trouble doing detail work at HO scale... N would be impossible for me.

I should also add that it doesn't matter if you're in an 8x10 space. Truly! For instance, have more space than that and STILL can't do everything I want or fit in everything I want. If I had double the space I have, I'd still have things I couldn't do... I think that much as you are trying to wedge in this and that, it's not a matter of "if I only had ____"...

My last layout was 11x14 L-shape, and I spent a lot of time thinking "if only I could use that third wall and have an 11x14 U-shape, I could do everything I wanted...."

Now I have more than 20x20, and there's plenty of "compromise" in the layout anyway... So don't get trapped in the "if only I had ___, then I could" ... including "if only I had N-scale, I could...." thing.

In any case, thought I'd share my perspective since you're in N-vy mode.
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Posted by Tracklayer on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:51 PM
Scale really doesn't matter in a situation like yours. It's more of a room issue...

Tracklayer (N scaler - for now.)
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Jealous of N-scalers
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:06 PM
I'm planning and planning (and planning) my future layout, and man, is it hard to fit HO in an 8 x 10ft space!

I'm trying really hard to have a passenger station, but the space requirements are killing me.

See, I want passenger and switching. Switching isn't so bad, but unfortunately to fit in the passenger station, the switcher has to be doing all of its running-around on the runaround track right in front of the passenger station! Argggghhhh!

Now if I was in N scale, this planning would be much easier!

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