Went to my first train show...LONG winded post..Read at your own risk!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by loathar

The second company is an E-Bay store. Do a search on Ebay for Reynolds Railways.Good people, no minimums, and realistic shipping charges.

Reynolds Railways is not just an eBay store, but a real LHS located in Dupo, Illinois, about 10 miles south of St. Louis on the Illinois side of the the Big Muddy. Nice folks, small crowded store and at certain times of the year half of their inventory is packed up for shows like the one you went to. But they have a good selection and a nice operating layout in the store. They do sell at retail price in the store. Location is great too, across the street from UP's Dupo Yard and car shop.

[retsignalmtr]

cmrproducts
the antenna i'm talking about is on the ur91 and it was positioned level with the benchwork. digitrax recommends that the two wires be verticle but that we try the wires horizontal. the mall construction is mostly steel framework with pipes and cables up in a suspended ceiling. probably lots of rebar in the concrete floor too. at the mall we were located center court with a verizon kiosk on one side and a celular one kiosk on the other side of our layout. we conquered the interference by keeping the throttles tethered with the extension cords i made with the 6 wire cable used for the loconet which allowed us to be able to move around the layout. we have one receiver(ur91) at the clubs layout and have no reception problems there. this same unit operates our show layout. it is in a cabinet and is set up to also run dc on any track so people without dcc can run their equipment.

[CP5415]

[1shado1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CP5415

I haven't been to a train show in a couple of years.
To pay $10 to get in only to turn around to be hosed by cheap food @ expensive food prices doesn't appeal to me.



Gordon

Because of course, most folks go to train shows for gourmet meals at bargain prices, right?[?] If the food is lousy and expensive, I'd eat either before or after going to the show.[:D]

Jeff

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by loathar

Yea. The Zephers cheap, but I would like a hand held throttle. I talked to Digitrax people and by the time you buy the Super Cheif system for $300. Then you need a power supply for $65. (because they said it didn't come with one). Then you'll need a booster at another $100. Then you probably won't like the throttle that comes with it, so that's another $75-$150 depending on which one you get. They had me up to $500 without buying a single decoder yet[xx(].(this is a Digitrax rep telling me this on the phone)
I talked to some guys from a club and asked "why Digitrax?" I felt like I was getting gang mugged.

Loathar,

I myself have had conversations with the DCC loyals at several of the train shows, and I've always come away with the same view of their opinions, they're mostly bad... [;)]

The fact is if you are considering the Digtrax route, the Super Chief is not and should not be on your short list of systems to consider given your needs. It is way overkill for most home layouts, and you will probably never start to explore the 120 locomotive slot limit. Keep in mind a Zephyr IS a Super Chief from a brains standpoint, and all the throttles and other Loconet devices Digitrax makes are compatible with the system. I've had my Zephyr for over a year and couldn't be happier with it. I've also never used the Zephyr control panel, as it's tucked away in my On30 bench work. I have several radio equipped DT400's and several more radio equipped UT4's. Here's the reality on what you would pay for a Zephyr system from most online retailers:

(1) Digitrax Zephyr $ 150.00
(1) Digitrax DT400 $ 135.00

So for $ 285 give or take depending upon where you shop, you have the ability of using 10 throttles and will have a power supply capable of running 10 newer HO scale locomotives without any problems. I realize you can get a PA cheaper than this, but I urge you to do some research concerning the different systems before spending your hard earned cash. There are several really good DCC guides online that answer many of the questions you might about the individual systems, my favorite one is on the Loy's Toy's site. Here is a link:

http://www.loystoys.com/MiscHTML/dcc-topics.html

Good luck and remember to have fun while researching this topic, because ultimately that's what its all about!

Jeff

[ICRR1964]

Loather,
The scale of the live steam is a bit bigger than "G" the guy I see once a year has a video show of all the man hours he has put in to make by hand the engine boilers and pistons and all the other components needed to make it actual live steam, it is really neat! All the other displayers complain about the smell of the burning oil and the mess. The guy keeps mats below track to catch all the spitting water and oil, its fun to watch him run along beside the engines adjusting the throttle to keep it going. This guy I see every year has an 0-4-0, 2-6-2, and his big one 2-8-2 which is about 3 and a half feet long, that one is a blast to watch! The warm up time is about 15 minutes before loco will run, once running the popvalves pop, pistons throw steam, white smoke smokes. Just like the real deal. The crowds are always hanging around this setup, and you get to listen to the other displayers complain, I love it!

[canazar]

Loather....

I can maybe kick in some thoughts on the club thing from personal expeirence.

I am part of a modular club here in Phoenix Arizona, the Grand Canyon Model Rail Roaders. We do quite a few shows and public events. Even though I am the oly one with a home layout, it is fun to do since it gives me a good chacne to "hang with the [8D]boys" and more importantly, spread the hobby.

Buit there are somethings that can happen in a club like that. (First off, our club is great, as soon as i think we are bunch of clowns[:o)], we will some others and realise we got our act together and we are top notch...Hey, last show we had 280 feet of 8' modules set up GRASS in a field, with NCE DCC system, and we were running trains in 7 hours. with 20 guys) Anyways, sorry, I will back away from the horn.[^]

Settingup modules ia a pain. You are depending on everyone else to make it work. Throw in DCC?? Can be a nightmare. Throw a dozen different collections of rolling stock and engines? Bring out the devil [}:)]and the gremlins, its partry time.

More or less, you have to have your stuff top notch.... all the time. Its hard and have to give some of the guys slack. Then agian, like how we give some of our guys alot of[banghead] if it is game day and you are haveing problms. "Dude, we have had this planned for 2 months? And now you are going to relay that switch? What the.....? it can go both ways.

Also, another problem I see is too many cheifs, and not enough indains. Everyone is and "expert" and knows what wrong. it will take hours assuming they dont screw it up worse, before thye go through all the issues. Or, you get the " 1" Cheif and he has to run around and everyone else lets him do it. With modules and DCC, setting up the modules is the easy part. hooking up the wring, well, thats the hard, time consuming part. So, yeah, you may have caught the wind of all kinds diferent problems.

With the, "I really dont wanan be here attitude, well, thats just a shame.[:(]

[loathar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

QUOTE: Originally posted by loathar

(less$$$$$)

i'm curious . i've seen the digitrax zephyr for $146.95 from online sellers , where are you getting the PA for less $ ?

Yea. The Zephers cheap, but I would like a hand held throttle. I talked to Digitrax people and by the time you buy the Super Cheif system for $300. Then you need a power supply for $65. (because they said it didn't come with one). Then you'll need a booster at another $100. Then you probably won't like the throttle that comes with it, so that's another $75-$150 depending on which one you get. They had me up to $500 without buying a single decoder yet[xx(].(this is a Digitrax rep telling me this on the phone)
I talked to some guys from a club and asked "why Digitrax?" I felt like I was getting gang mugged.
Everyone elses stuff stinks! Their ALL going to be paper weights in two years.Digi is the ONLY way to go. You'll never run anything on our layout without it!(don't want to).
I felt like I was talking to the people that told me 15 years ago that Macintosh was going to put Bill Gates and his PC's out of business.
I heard my first sound decoders there and yea, they where kind on neat, but I personally wouldn't spend that much money on them.
The modular club display was having major radio interferance problems with their throttles. I wish someone would have had a Prod Adv. system running there so I could have compared them.

[cmrproducts]

retsignalmtr

With the mall atmosphere where did you have the radio receiver located? Low on the layout or on a pole above the height of most of the operators.

The signal that most all DCC mfg. use is in the cell phone frequency (which is really line of site)!

I have done extensive experimenting with my home layout and it is about the size of most club layouts and probably as big as a mall setup. (over 2200 sq ft).

Now with the handheld radio units they have the radio antenna inside the hand held keypad (Digitrax). When you are holding the keypad you have your hand wrapped around the antenna.

It is a well known fact that the frequency of the DCC signal output is very low (by FCC regulations) and your hand covering the keypad and antenna is absorbing some of the signal (due to the moisture content of the body). Now most operators usually have the keypad up close to their bodies and not at arms length away from them, plus they usually have their back to the receiver. Now the body is absorbing more of the signal.

If the receiver is mounted at bench height anyone standing close to the receiver will block more of the signal.

It is amazing that the receivers work as good as they do.

We had this problem on my home layout as well as well as some friends layouts and we could get better reception by holding the keypad high up in the air to get the thing to work.

So we moved all of the receivers high as possible (ceiling mount) and the problems of radio reception went away.

So get the receiver up in the air and try to keep the keypads out away from the body a little more and the reception should be a lot better.

If not you may have to add another receiver to help cover any dead spots in the reception. I have 3 on my home layout and one other member of our group has 2.

So it will vary with locations.

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[retsignalmtr]

my club has digitrax wireless dcc on our layout and i have it on my home layout too. one problem we have experienced with the dcc is radio interference which makes it hard to operate. we had our layout at a mall and it was operating fine until the mall started to get crowded with people using their cell phones. then we started to lose control of the trains. it got to the point where we couldn't operate unless the throttles were tethered. this also happened when we were at a show . the always helpful digitrax people said the interference could have been in the makeup of the buildings we were in and to make the antenna wires horizontal instead of verticle. my dcc system works flawlessly in my home and my clubs system works great and is very enjoyable to operate with several trains on each track. we only have our systems for several months but we're not digi-dummies. programming and wiring are not our problems. minor problems occur on any layout especially layouts that are disassembled and moved often(for shows). don't let that discourage you from getting dcc for your own layout.

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by loathar

(less$$$$$)

i'm curious . i've seen the digitrax zephyr for $146.95 from online sellers , where are you getting the PA for less $ ?

[CP5415]

I haven't been to a train show in a couple of years.
To pay $10 to get in only to turn around to be hosed by cheap food @ expensive food prices doesn't appeal to me.

Sure there are/were some things that I wanted buy why pay the the same price there on top of the $10 to get in when I could save the $10 & buy it from my LHS.

I was at one show where one merchant has 2 different prices on their items but was told the lower price was US funds only.
Total rip off if there ever was one.

My LHS participates in most of them & I know it, but I'd rather spend the $10 in his shop then to put up with a lot of the stuff that most train shows seem to have become, especially the ones around the GTA

Gordon

[cmrproducts]

loathar

Yes that is what I started out doing, JUST a few cars and maybe run 2 engines. It was a 9 x 11 layout. Started out with DC and then moved to Analogue Command Control (Keller On Board sound – way back in ancient times early ‘80s) and then DCC came around.

Now I have over 2200 sq feet of layout and over 2700 feet of track and 800 plus cars and 50 plus engines and , and , and it goes on.

I now host 12 hour OPTUDs (OP Till U Drop) and have operators come from 100 miles away just to attend one of these sessions.

Now I never figured that I would be doing this way back in 1978 when I first got back into serious model railroading but I am glad I did. Met a lot of great modelers and I get to operate on their layouts too!

If it had not been for real Ops I probably would not be into the hobby as much as I am, as watching trains go roundy-round gets boring real fast and we just finished up the Club shows yesterday (Sat 12/17) and watching the trains run around for 12 hours is way too long of a time not to be able to go any Ops.

And as for Digitrax and doing a modular set up at shows all it takes is one module to have a problem the rest of the display will suffer. Now having the same set up in a Club or Home atmosphere you will not run into these problems unless you have failed to use proper wiring techniques when you built the layout.

When I host my OPTUDs I have 30 to 40 people there running trains and we have 20 plus engines running all at once and we have NO problems so judging from a show layout to a controlled home layout is no comparison!

If you are ever in the area come on over and WE will run some trains!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[Fergmiester]

Train Shows can be hit and miss. I go for the odds & ends and to meet people. I glance at the layouts as they seem to be the same every year. All the layouts are DCC and I've seen several operating systems that drive them. Yes I have Digitrax and yes I like it. Saying that I also know of others who have the oother systems and like them as they are just as good.

As to operating problems; dirty track, poor connections, old computer who knows. That's why I don't drive everything from from my DCC, just the locos.

And yes there will always be a select few of the Clan Rivet Counter that attend these things and profess to know everything. Ignore them!

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Fergie

[loathar]

Jnichols-Thanks for that responce- It sounds like you can give me some good advise.
1- I don't care about sound.
2-I don't care about DCC switching and signaling.(I'm going standard DC wiring for that)
3- I will never run my stuff on someone elses club layout.(nor will they on mine) It's my own little world.
4- The only thing I'm looking for in a DCC system is throttle for up to 5 locos at once, directional lighting, and maybe ditch lights and passenger car and caboose lighting.
(standard consist of two locos on my main line too)
Can the Prod Adv. system do this?
(less$$$$$)

[loathar]

Live steam is cool. I don't know if your talking about small stuff or 7 plus scale that you can ride on.( I wish I had the budget for that)
Two things that bugged me about the sectional club layout are..
1- Some of the guys that where standing by their moduals had a bad attitude and treaded being at the show as a job instead of a hobby to enjoy.
2- The whole layout was done in Peco track and switches and they looked terrible.
I'm an Atlas code 83 fan,and now I'm REALLY an Atlas fan.
I know I'm going to catch crap for that, but It's my money....

[jnichols]

Glad you enjoyed the train show and it's too bad you had such a bad experience with the DCC folks. Without starting another Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge discussion, remember that much of what you hear is simply opinion, and not relevant to facts in many cases. My guess is that many of the problems you witnessed at the show had much more to do with user error and operation misunderstanding than actual product failure (although this does happen from time to time). I

With that said, I am a loyal Digitrax customer and have been for years. Most of the local clubs I operate at are also Digitrax equipped making the task of running trains at different locations easier. When the MRC PA first came out, I picked one up as I had just sold my Digitrax Super Chief and wanted to try something different. The PA is a good product, and would be a great system for someone new to DCC and not expecting high end DCC system flexibility. But after several months of playing with the PA, I sold it off and picked up a Digitrax Zephyr and I'm still running trains with it to this day. There were just too many holes in the PA product for me, these may or may not bug other users, but they affected the way I liked to run trains. Here are a few of my dislikes concerning the PA:

1: The ability to run an analog locomotive. Although not imparitive, this should be included on a $200+ DCC system. Heck, even the Bachmann entry level piece can stretch zeros.

2. Having proper support for universal consisting is a big issue for me, and the PA doesn't address this in any real usuable way. Universal consisting is the superior way to consist in my opinion, and I know there are many out there that also feel this way. The ability to easily add and remove single locomotives from a consist and the ability to nest addresses are important to me, and both are more difficult to do using advanced consisting.

3. Being a Digitrax user before having the PA, my N scale layout was equipped with Digitrax block detection circuits, and I really got used to doing all my programming including reading CV values on the main line. To my knowledge, Digitrax is the only company that supports this feature, but I could be wrong.

4. Programming compaitbility. For some reason I had a heck of a time getting the programming features in the PA to work all the time. While the QSI locomotives are a pain to program for many systems, I had issues with other products besides the QSI equipped locomotives.

There are a handful of other nitpicks I have, and these are mostly centered around the nuts and bolts of the system and probably wouldn't bother someone who has never owned a DCC system (wireless throttle, operations only throttle, computer control, etc.). These are just my opinions, and again I'm sorry you didn't get a good demonstration at the show.

Jeff

[ICRR1964]

I always like going to the shows, meet some freinds and make new ones. You can find allot of good deals and watch the trains run. My favorite is the live steam they have running, don't ask what the scale is. Most of the guys that run the live steam have made there own engines, the display draws a huge crowd.

As far as the layout and displays are, I always see some nice ones and some expensive loco's running and $$$ DCC systems, seems like they spend more time fixing programming, or cleaning a section of track. Then you have the small setup that is in N scale that is no bigger than my kitchen table running on DC and there is a crowd around it, setup has allot of detail and is nice. Allot of the setups are made potable to make it easy to move them, they have to comprimise on details sometimes, I'm ok with that. I'm just glad to have a train show to go to. Its fun!

[loathar]

Went to a show in Franklin Tn. today. (my fiirst show). I just wanted to share.
Met a couple of great venders. (Greenwayproducts.com) was the best. A HUGE lot of detail parts at real cheap prices. (I got some rivets to finish my Mantua Mikoda kit for $1 and that was worth the price of admission)
They had 3 cases of Bowser freat car kit's for $7.50 each. I didn't know that Bowser had kits like this.Way better looking than Athearn BB kits. Their detail parts have a label that says TRACKSIDE SPECIALTIES. Brass and plastic detail stuff for cars,locos and building scenes. $1 to $8.50. Loco detail parts and stuff to fill a garage or or loco repair shop. (drill presses, lathes,welding rigs,jacks,ect.
The second company is an E-Bay store. Do a search on Ebay for Reynolds Railways.Good people, no minimums, and realistic shipping charges.
NOW!!! for the bug up my butt. The layouts looked like crap and didn't run worth a sh_t! ALL the club guys I talked to preached Digitrax and bad mouthed MRC Prodigy but they couldn't get their Digi-crap to work right?????
Even the so called Digicrap experts stuff wasn't running right.(Oh, wait a minute, I have to reprogram that loco, OH, wait a minute, I have to reboot the computer)
What's up with that??????From what I saw, I would never spend that much $$$ for that system[%-)][%-)].
Maybe I just saw some operators that where "less than smart" , but????
Should I expect to have WORSE problems with the Prodagy Advance system??
This show is a GREAT show if your into Lionel.
I hope to take 1/2 a grand there next year if I can. (some good deals to be had)