Anyone with DC still?

[CP5415]

DC still here.

Sometime in the future I may go with DCC but that won't be until after the kids are done University.

Gordon

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

There are problems with DCC at club levels..What to do if several members have the same engine number and refuse to change the number? Again DCC still has many issues that needs to be address by large groups.

Stick to the DC systems if you want, it really makes no difference to me.. But this is just plain bull.

QUOTE:
What to do if several members have the same engine number and refuse to change the number?

Send them to the corner until they learn to play with others.. Petty crap like this is exactly why I don't belong to a club. And yes, I too would like to know what the other "many issues" are..

[twhite]

I'm sticking with DC, mainly because of the fact that I've got about 55 or so older brass steamers, and I run them all, and to convert them to DCC would put me in hock up to my eyeballs. I don't mind DC--okay, I can't run two trains on the mainline and do some switching at the same time, but since I only want to concentrate on one thing at a time anyway, I don't feel that I'm missing out.
And frankly, at my age, reading an article on installing DCC on a layout my size just makes my eyeballs turn back in my head, anyway. Electronics and I are not the best of friends to begin with--I'm still trying to figure out my computer.
I'll stick with DC, thanks.
Tom [:D]

[AntonioFP45]

Brakie,

I've asked similar questions at the club I just joined - --- Let's see......it takes about 20 to 30 seconds to change just "one digit" on a DCC controller for a club session. No hard choices there. Problem easily solved. At a club, the atmosphere should be one of fun, not petty arguments over something so small and easily adjustable.

Just curious. What are the other "Many Issues" for large groups. When the club I just joined was all DC, I was told that there were also a few issues then as well, including arguments over DC Cab Route assignments.

Guys, issues can be big or small, regardless of which technology a club chooses, whether DC or DCC. We can still downplay dcc, but would be good to see some more solid points if you're pointing out all of DCC's faults.

[BRAKIE]

There are problems with DCC at club levels..What to do if several members have the same engine number and refuse to change the number? Again DCC still has many issues that needs to be address by large groups.

[AntonioFP45]

CNJ, thanks for your well thought out response.

Funny you mentioned baby boomers as I'm one myself (born 1963, officially the cutoff year).

You're right, a huge portion of modelers are in our age group, however, I'm just pointing out that as with other technology innovations, a number of posters seem to make the extra effort to "down play" DCC.

Just two points.

1. My attitude is " OK,; we can downplay it with stats but the fact remains it's growing and as we baby boomer age, a lot of the younger modelers that move into better, financially rewarding careers $$ will likely decide to go with command control.

2. I do disagree with you regarding a large "outlay of money and time". For even a medium sized layout a Digitrax Zephyr system is a one time "big investment" for $199 (cheaper than some Atlas and BLI locomotives). I was wrong about decoders.........at some discount web stores some are selling for $12 apiece. So for modelers with a fleet of 20 HO plastic locomotives, the conversion over to DCC is still cheaper than buying ONE brass locomotive from Overland Models; some which run an easy $600 and up! So the argument about the "High Costs" just doesn't wash.

But of course it's going to cost more than DC. However, as with anything........you want more, you pay more. How much is up to the customer.

Peace.

[XMarine]

The cost and time involved in converting 80+ locos as well as the time to code everything is the draw back. I'll stick with DC thank you. Even large layouts can be wired simply and work just fine with DC. Yes DCC can allow one to operate many trains on the same track. But even the real railroads use blocks and central control with no two trains in the same section of track (block).

[sebamat]

I have DC, and had the posibility to try DCC in a club layout.

I will stick to DC because:
I have over 400 engines, after US and european prototipes, some over 30y old, and a lot of them steam, and I like tho have the chance to run them all.
No way I will have the time, technical skills(!!) and money to convert them. Those would not be 'plug and play transformation', I would need to redo all the wiring of the engines, and some times you even need to replace the motors (I saw that at the club). And lately you can use at least the most basic sound functions (wisstles, engine sound) working even on a DC layout, taking away one of the attraction..

My experience with the club layout on dcc showed that this is not without problems: a high sensibility toward dirty tracks (a lot more than my DC layout), and 'fried' decoders weren't so rare either! Decoder loosing the programming either.

With a good number of blocks (ok that was some wiring work invested.), I can do almost everything (even adding pusher on the front of the train) with my dc layout.

sebastiano

[BRAKIE]

Guys,I often wondered how popular DCC really was..So,on the local scene I casually ask around at hobby shops,clubs,track side and other such places..I soon found out that DCC is not widely use in this area.The closest club that I am aware of that uses DCC is in Lima(Oh) and maybe the club in Sandusky.There is a small non-club group of modelers in Tiffin I believe uses DCC.Anyway,when Atlas introduce their Quantum Engineer Controller so DC users could use their sound equipped locomotives and other locomotives with QSI technology sound then I knew my local research was fairly accurate ...

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45
[
By the way, CNJ, if I may point out an observation that I made earlier...........Look at your response above:

QUOTE: ....will remain the dominant system for many many years to come.

Notice something about your wording, especially "many many" ? No offense to you, but this was i pointed out earlier.....statements that sound so defensive; hence the "fear threat" reaction.

Antonio, not a defensive statement at all, simply logical. I have no idea how much you understand of the hobby's demographics but it is necessary to appreciate how model railroading as a hobby works. Model railroading is today totally dominated by the Baby Boomer Generation. Most of these guys are not newcomers but have been in the hobby for years. The majority are set in there ways and likely to have established layouts. As such, they are going to be very slow to accept and change their operating systems...if they ever choose to do so at all. Conversion to DCC is not a matter of just switching a couple of wires and you are ready to go. It involves major work on an established layout, plus a large outlay of money and time, both of which will not appeal to most modelers well set in their ways. There is also a steep learning curve involved, especially for those not of the computer generation.

Even after a decade of endless hyping in the hobby press and on-line, DCC still seems to be in use by only 20% of modelers and I'd venture to guess that these are, to a greater or lesser extent, the newcomers and younger, computer-savy hobbyists. Based on this, it would be very surprising to see DCC become the dominant operating system for at least 15 to 20 years into the future and then largely due then to the die-off of the Boomers.

CNJ831

[Berk-fan284]

I voted DC because I am still in the concrete continental divide (basement floor) type of layout, I have a fair number of older brass and Athearn Blue Box locos of varying vintages and I am currently just too cheap and lazy to convert the fleet. I have several locos that came DCC compatible( Kato, Broadway, Athearn Genisis+ Ready to Run, Bachmann Spectrums,Trix B Boy, Lionel Challenger) so I am not slagging or ruling out a conversion to DCC maybe someday.

[AntonioFP45]

10-4 on that guys.

Regarding turnouts for HO, I guess things have changed recently as the number 1 choice for turnouts was the higher end Atlas Code 83, due mainly to affordability. From what I've read the Peco Code 83 with Insulfrog is becoming a favored choice among modelers. I'm on a tight budget but those Pecos are the only turnouts I'm buying. My LHS has a hard time getting Shinohara from Walthers, but those Pecos sure sell well.

CNJ831, I understand your view fully and respect DC modelers choices. Nobody is putting DC down.

I have to disagree with you on point. #3.

Sound, though a nice "juicy" feature was not DCC's main advantage. DCC's #1 advantage is Independent locomotive control without restrictions..........locomotives can travel anywhere on the layout anytime, independently without the restrictions of Cab Control. That's what attracted me to it like a magnet on steel when I saw a demo. The sound advantages were secondary. Up until that demo, I didn't even want to hear anything about DCC.

By the way, CNJ, if I may point out an observation that I made earlier...........Look at your response above:

QUOTE: ....will remain the dominant system for many many years to come.

Notice something about your wording, especially "many many" ? No offense to you, but this was i pointed out earlier.....statements that sound so defensive; hence the "fear threat" reaction.

Honestly neither you nor I know if that is true. It's just as easy to state that "Many, many" ot fhese younger modelers today are "techno heads". Whenever I have computer questions, before I bug my friend the technician, I'll ask my son or nephew first. Nine times out of 10, their answers are on the mark! I'm amazed at how these young people absorb this technology like a sponge. This younger generation, especially with so many indulging parents today, doesn't seem to care how much technology costs. Look how many teens today have Ipods, laptops, PCs, and CD players. Look how many 16 thru 21 year olds have 800+ watt car stereo systems that will blast out ear drums. My kid had zero interest in model trains...... until he saw a picture of a decoder in MRR. Suddenly he's interested.

I honestly believe that because of today's young people, DC and DCC will reach the 60/40 level in only a few years as the techology continues to become even more user friendly. So I'm not saying DCC will be the dominant model railroad technology in a few years, but again I point out that back in 1983 I clearly remember thinking that compact discs and personal computers were expensive, fun " gimmicks and fads". Well, 22 years later I'm still eating my words.

Guys, no one here is saying DC is dying or will go out of style and there is NO issue about which technology is going to be "Dominant" in a few years. We're here discussing the 2 systems that we as modelers can choose to utilize. Both have pros and cons, including maintenance costs, installation work, etc. No need for arguments.

If the question arises "Which one is better?" there is one, easy answer........The one that is best for yout! [:D][8D][C):-)][tup][{(-_-)}]

[james saunders]

i only got a 4X8 at the moment and only run one train so DC is good for now

[Anonymous]

A parallel might be video games over time. Although they were technically inferior to what is available now, we sure had lots of fun with the old video games. I remember when Pong came out. My cousin and I played one of the original Atari systems. We had hours and hours of fun. I don't think the kids today have any more fun than we did back in the late 70s/ early 80s.

I've noticed that many of the N scale layouts in magazines that are done by the experts are still DC. At the annual Thanksgiving train show here in Huntington, most, and perhaps all, of the N scale layouts were DC. It reminds me of what one of my aunts said who grew up during the Depression. She said that she didn't realize they were poor until someone told her. It kind of makes you think.

Model trains have a great appeal to me because they recreate the wonderment of childhood. Of course, capitalism would have a hard time if companies couldn't convince you that you need something better than what you already have.

Now, I am not slamming DCC or capitalism. I'm just trying to put things into perspective. I don't buy the idea that if you don't have DCC, you are missing the boat. I am not anti DCC. I figure it is the wave of the future. It is kind of like not being able to enjoy being 12 or 14 because you are obsessed with the idea of being sixteen and driving. It will come soon enough. Enjoy where you are now. Soon it will be gone forever.

[Anonymous]

I'll be starting a new layout hopefully early next year (with a wonderful 4 month old son in my life, I'm quite happy saying progress has ground a dead stop - but there's always time for thinking and planning! - which I've been doing a lot of).

I'm pretty sure I'll be wiring just a few blocks. The idea is the layout will be run with DCC. However, I want to be able to throw a switch to be back to DC. What do you do if your DCC system goes bad and you need to get it repaired, etc.?

The thing extremely attractive about straight DC is that it's very easy to understand what's going on. Oh well, I'm used to using a computer on a daily basis. But I'm no fool - I don't trust the computer. I back up like a mad man.

Likewise, I'd want my layout to have a backup plan if I ever get the urge to throw my DCC system out the window (not likely, but always a possibility).

I think it's very interesting that Eric Brooman (who many would argue [including me] has one of the finest layouts in the hobby) doesn't use DCC. He uses DC, and is happy with it.

I play the drums, and there are lots of electronic drums fans out there. For my money, there's nothing like slamming some real drums with drumsticks (or gently touching them with the tips of drumsticks, whatever the music calls for). This is sort of like DC. It's much more easy to understand what's going on - not a bunch of debugging, reading manuals, etc.

Still, I'm sure I'll end up with DCC. But there's something undeniably cool about old school DC to me.

[ErnieC]

Antonio,
Ok, may be I came on too strong, but harsh? Naw! It's a little like buying a car in the 50's - how much chrome do you really need? The object is transportation (we forget that).
Rereading my post I see some frustration, the introduction of DCC stopped the development of DC throttles (like the Infracabs which are superb), frankly if I were to start over I'd be in DCC too because the real issue is a transparent operating system. Mine works fine in that respect only because I'm familiar with it, it would drive anyone else crazy but of course there isn't anyone else. Futhermore, I would either have to pay someone to install decoders (if I won the lottery) ; scrap the majority of engines I have (but I like them) or do the rewiring myself (what a horrible thought).
The turnout question is also a problem, I have a few Insulfrogs and about 100 Electrofrogs (in place, ballasted and running well) and honestly being a solo modeler I don't have the time, money or strength to rebuild what I already have. A layout is much more work (and fun) then I ever imagined before my optimism was exposed to reality.

Of course as you pointed out many people drop the hobby (can't imagine why) but my friend did so specifically because of the experience he had with DCC. He had a beautiful layout too and 50 years invested.

I did not intend my comments to be bashing MR, the mag is the best thing the hobby has going for it. But because of the shrinking market (fewer modelers) it is harder to take an objective stance when your financial security depends on enlarging the market ( ergo the 'worlds greatest hobby' promotion). Let me know before you give any more MR's away, I only have the mag from 8/48. Makes great reading on cold winter nights. It also reminds us that the hobby is enjoyable because of our imaginations, not our gadgets. In spite of all the "handycaps" the modelers in the 40's had they were having fun (go figure).

People are model railroaders for many reasons, for me it's operation and it takes a lot of work (and money) to get there and I'm not about to back up now, of course I've considered changing scales someday. May be then........

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ErnieC

Reminds me of an old article in MR asking why you needed dual cabs in DC if you operate alone and only run one train at a time anyway. It was a point well taken but I wired for 2 cabs anyway (it's not that hard-were we smarter then?). After 10 years I still have not used the second cab!

Then as you figure, you probably wouldn't gain much from DCC.

QUOTE:
I have a friend in HO who had so much trouble with the custom decoder installations he purchased that he gave up and dropped out of the hobby altogether.

That's a shame.. It sounds like your friend got taken for his $$.

QUOTE:
My Infocab throttles provide precise control and my N scale steam engines run fine without tearing them apart to install decoders. BTW, if it's all that simple why the plethora of articles on modifying your turnouts to make them short proof? Is there an implication here that you really need to tear out the layout and start over?

DC or DCC, doesn't matter, your turnouts should be shortproof anyway.. The mods made to benifit DCC would equally benifit DC.. All it really is, is isolating the frog and making sure the point rails have proper contact at the right times. That's electrical, nothing to do with the contoller running the train.

QUOTE:
You can't do without sound? MRC's 'soundboxes' work fine in DC.

Sorry, MRCs sound box doesn't even come close... PFM sound on the other hand, complete with reverbs, now we can talk sound..

QUOTE:
MR has done the manufacturers a great service by promoting DCC while doing the hobbists a disservice by ignoring alternatives. If you are just starting out or operate a "private club" then DCC makes sense, but for the rest of us it's more "latest and greatest" hype.

Not going to presume to speak to the business practices of our host.. I'll leave that for the other psuedo experts.

QUOTE:
Whew, did I really need to get that off my chest!

Me too..

Enjoy your running your trains..

Jeff

[Anonymous]

I agree with one or two of the other posters...the cost is still way too high and the lack of variety in the smaller scales makes it difficult for your average modeller to convert. I do however like DCC...just think it has more of a place on larger layouts.

[Anonymous]

For now I will stay DC. First off, I'm into N scale. I think that those of us in smaller scales will have far more trouble converting our old DC locomotives to DCC. Second, there are far more DC locomotives available new than there are DCC/decoder ready locomotives. I hate that the new Atlas Classic N scale locomotives are not decoder ready. I would guess that the HO and larger train guys will convert more rapidly than N scale.

DC is cheaper and simpler if that is what you already have and understand. With DC I don't have to spend another dime to run my trains, its already paid for. I also don't have to use a lot of resources to learn the new system. How many decoders will I fry trying to learn this stuff? How many little engines will I slaughter trying to fit a decoder into? There is NO extra room in N scale locos, so MAJOR surgery is required. A friend of mine and president of our local club said that you need to be prepared for unforseen complications and expense. He's seen a few people who converted to DCC and almost pulled their hair out with frustration. I'm just not ready to open that can of worms right now.

I also figure that now is not the best time to switch. As the technology improves it will become less expensive, less frustrating and DCC friendly locos will become more available. I can of think of PCs before and after Windows. I'm still waiting for the Windows equivalent in DCC. Why should I rush in? My DVD player cost about $350 a few years back. Now you can get a better DVD player for $100 - $150. The same is true with stereo equipment etc.

Most of us will probably be assimilated as the technology becomes easier, cheaper and more available. As I mentioned earlier, if I want to go to my LHS to buy a new DCC/decoder ready loco, the choices are still slim pickin's.

I know, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. I imagine I too will be assimilated in the future. For me this just is not the time. There is a time for everything, it just ain't yet!

[CNJ831]

Sorry, Antonio, but I have to side with Ernie.

1. With regards to turnouts, probably the #1 choice in HO in recent years has been Shinohara code #83. The majority of layouts my friends have are so equipped. These are definitely not DCC friendly and it is a major project to either alter them or replace them, especially if you have fully completed your trackage.

2. MR has a long reputation of "pushing" a topic or concept they favor. If you look in MR today it's almost as if DC doesn't exist any more, in spite of the fact that it is still the choice of around 80% of hobbyists and will remain the dominate system for many, many years to come!

3. Within the next few years, except for all the gimmicky lighting effects, DC locomotives will have most of the capabilities that DCC equipped ones do currently. They already have sound in DC...the main, brief, previous advantage held by DCC.

I've read a lot about DCC down through recent years and visited quite a few private DCC layouts. While I fully admit DCC has advantages for very large, multi-operator layouts, I found nothing about it that would cause me to change over from DC. The full costs of DCC far exceeds those of a DC installation (in spite of what the DCC zealots insist) and there can be a lot of complexity and problems involved...especially when something goes wrong or stops functioning.

For those who have DCC and are happy with it, I say fine. But respect the opinion and choice of others that understand that DCC is far from being the only operating system worth consideration.

CNJ831

[AntonioFP45]

Ernie,

Regarding your friend that "gave up".......well, doesn't that happens to modelers in DC as well????. For many of the locomotives produced within the past 5 years drop in decoders are available. I've witnessed the Installation time: approximately 2 minutes! More "Plug Type" products have become available to make converting older locomotives easier and more N scale sized decoders are popping up on the market. If your friend reeeeeally likes this hobby........he'll return.

Ernie no disrespect to you, but as I mentioned before read about it THROROUGHLY before making such a harsh judgement. That's why I provided that link on my above post. By the way.........your comment about As for the "rest of us".........I'm one of those "rest of us" guys with older locomotives, tracks, and equipment.

Now........

QUOTE: Latest and greatest Hype

? Where? DCC has been on the market at least 10 years. No hype. Just solid information that can be backed up with reliable manufacturer support.

QUOTE: Tear out the layout and start over

? Why would you do that if you have good trackwork?? As for turnouts, a friend of mine showed me that in HO, Peco Insulfrog swiches negate the "potential" headache you're referring to. Yes, for non insulated switches in other scales there is info on how to prevent potential shorts. Actually not a fuss at all if you can connect a few wires.

I'm in my 40s and over the years I've accumulated over 300 issues of MRR (gave away over 100 a few months back). 70% of those issues covered DC related articles quite thoroughly while DCC, with it's own section in the magazine is still cast as "The Alternative". What Dissevervice has MR done to the hobby?

QUOTE: MRC's soundboxes

. I've heard MRC's sound boxes. After hearing Soundtraxx and QSI sound units, IMHO, there's just no comparison..........Far better and more accurate. BLI N scale units are being marketed. Sound is an option. Modelers don't have to have it, but many now want it.

Guys, I'm not being a smart aleck, but again it seems that several of the responses on this thread exhibit an unnecessary "fear-threat, so bash-dcc" reaction. I see it, because I experienced it myself a few years ago.

Most of us that like DCC are not trying to shove it down anyone's throat. Far from it. However, we are excited about it due to the wonderful features and functions it allows so naturally we enjoy talking about them.

Peace.

[Anonymous]

DCC for me. Soon........

[Anonymous]

But isn't DCC more cost effective for a beginner? Just think of cost of wiring, and ease of operation. Not to mention you can use so many trains

[ErnieC]

Reminds me of an old article in MR asking why you needed dual cabs in DC if you operate alone and only run one train at a time anyway. It was a point well taken but I wired for 2 cabs anyway (it's not that hard-were we smarter then?). After 10 years I still have not used the second cab! I have a friend in HO who had so much trouble with the custom decoder installations he purchased that he gave up and dropped out of the hobby altogether. My Infocab throttles provide precise control and my N scale steam engines run fine without tearing them apart to install decoders. BTW, if it's all that simple why the plethora of articles on modifying your turnouts to make them short proof? Is there an implication here that you really need to tear out the layout and start over? You can't do without sound? MRC's 'soundboxes' work fine in DC. MR has done the manufacturers a great service by promoting DCC while doing the hobbists a disservice by ignoring alternatives. If you are just starting out or operate a "private club" then DCC makes sense, but for the rest of us it's more "latest and greatest" hype.
Whew, did I really need to get that off my chest!

[rexhea]

Been with DC and will never go back to it. Now it's DCC all the way.

REX

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rails5
Converting each locomotive as one purchases it, is a far different proposition than converting 50+ existing ones.

How is that any different than just converting them one at a time, bit by bit? If you pick your favorite three, and convert them, then you can convert the others a little at a time.

If you want to run any one of your locos in your staple without any decoder, then you can. With fleet decoders at $15 a pop, I don't see how even converting them in batches is all that big a deal.

Just takes a little self-discipline. Who ever said you had to convert them all at once?

[Anonymous]

I'm still DC. I'm into steam. Like many, I have more locomotives than I really need (but I love every one of them), cycle them onto the layout in groups. Most of my "stable" was assembled before DCC (a) worked out all the technical kinks and (b) became somewhat affordable. The task of converting them to DCC is my main obstacle (and paying someone to do it for me is financially out of the question).

I planned my layout with DC operation in mind. Operating three trains at a time is only just challenging enough to remain interesting; due to the design and the home-made electro-mechanical aids, no frantic swtiching of cabs or throwing of power-feed toggles.

If I were starting out now - or even five or six years ago - DCC would be a no-brainer. Converting each locomotive as one purchases it, is a far different proposition than converting 50+ existing ones.

[on30francisco]

I still run with DC. I plan to convert to DCC in the very near future. I never used DCC but from what I've read about it, i think it would be much simpler not to have all those blocks, switches, and wiring to contend with. The main thing that stops me is installing decoders in locos. It is definately not my idea of fun! I'd much rather scratchbuild a structure out of stripwood. I was thinking of getting the Digitraxx system. When I switch to DCC, I will probably wire the layout so I can have both DCC and DC.

[Anonymous]

DCC for me. I prefer not to operate in silence [zzz]