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Marklin Vs MTH

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csmith9474
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Posted by csmith9474 on Tuesday, December 6, 2005 4:02 PM
From what I understand, Marklin can hit the wallet pretty hard. Seems like a great system though. It also seems that the Marklin types are pretty hard core. Our museum "inhereted" a Marklin layout with overhead and everything, but we ended up selling it before I had a chance to do anything with it. There sure was a lot of "stuff" crammed into a small area as I noticed with a lot of the Marklin layouts I have seen.
Smitty
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AntonioFP45
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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Sunday, December 4, 2005 1:25 PM
Good point.

If I may suggest, let it ride for now. If indeed Ted persists in deliberately kicking the hornet's nest, no problem. With a few keystrokes, we just do what our moderator has strongly requested that we do: Send Bergie an e-mail (forums@trains.com) and he'll deal with it a.s.a.p. [;)]

Inspite of him flaming me now and then...........One thing I have to say in Ted's defense. I did a little bit of searching after clicking on "Advanced". Ted E has actually made some pretty decent posts on the other forums. So perhaps he does just like to "yank our chains" a bit. Beats me as to why.....[%-)]

And with that.......Merry Christmas to you, the crew, and Ted E [:D][8D]

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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selector
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Posted by selector on Sunday, December 4, 2005 1:18 PM
I truly believe that he is NOT obsessed with MTH, but merely gets a kick out of capitalizing on opportunities to stir up this hornets nest. Clearly, he has no trouble doing it..time after time after time after time after time after time after time...
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AntonioFP45
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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Sunday, December 4, 2005 1:10 PM
Student,

Yes, Ted E. Bear and MTH Rules ( I call him Ted E MTH) are one and the same person, based on his posting and writing patterns. (I should have been a cop!)

But honestly I doubt that its Mike Wolf. Wolf is still a business man and its doubtful that he would ever want to risk pulling a stunt like this and then through some technical "gizmittry" he is found out. Besides, he's too busy trying to market and make sales from his company which has been hurting financially. He's got more important things on his mind.

Ted E is likely just obsessed with MTH and its products and feels that he must thwart any negative opinions made of MTH. He's likely a nice guy that you'd say hi to on the street.

He reminds me of a friend I had years ago named Marlon. Great guy, and cool as long as you didn't dare say anything negative about Volkswagons. Marlon would virtually change into "The Hulk" and became pretty vocal if you took that risk!

So, unless he starts posting more "productively" it's just best to leave Ted E MTH as he is. Not even worth bothering Bergie about it. I still think Ted will cool it and join in rather than continue to be the outcast.

I can tell you from life's experiences that being a negative outcast gets boring after a while.
Been there........done that!

High Greens.

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 4, 2005 12:50 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Did you just figure that out James? All anyone has to say is MTH or DCS, and they magicly appear.


No I just felt like being obnoxious. And besides. Ted E. Bear. That is so obviously a troll. I am dissapointed. I would not be suprised if MTH Rules and Ted E. Bear are infact one in the same individual and that individual was Mike Wolfe himself. But then that migh be giving him to much credit. Read my other thread that was a response to AntonioFP45s reply to me and read the shanagans that are going on there.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51138

James
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 4, 2005 10:55 AM
Antonio, we have a real mix - Gaugemaster (who have been the big name in analog control for years - their Model D is a benchmark power pack) are now offering what appears to be a rebadged Prodigy advance, and a few dealers import Digitrax et al. Lenz seems to have become dominant on the control side though Bachmann are making friends with their E Z DCC - many modellers over here run smaller layouts that don't need much power or many addresses. What I have noticed is that decoders seem to be more varied - we get pretty much the same ones as you do, and people seem inclined to use different manufacturers products to suit different applications. Lenz don't do much in the way of tiny decoders for example, so if you want to DCC a small steamer you need to find someone else - TCS in particular do well here. ZTC are the "home team" as it were but their prices are scary - they offer very nice all-metal control desk units but the price is well above that of a top of the line Lenz set. Bottom line, nobody else seems to be able to compete with Lenz here on value - their top of the range set is only a little more than other starter sets.

Roco's DCC system is also popular to some extent, mainly as it offers the best value available (starter set with loco, 2 cars, loop of track and all DCC control gear is £100 - you can only just buy a Lenz Compact and transformer to run it for that much, the Roco set does much the same and can be expanded in much the same way, the two even share a common command bus). Hopefully Roco will be producing plenty of the sets as I was rather hoping to get hold of one before they ran into financial problems, with any luck they'll be reintroduced soon though. The Lok-Maus is a very neat handheld throttle that should plug straight into the Compact I use.
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AntonioFP45
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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Sunday, December 4, 2005 8:26 AM
Don't worry about Ted. He'll be fine. Hopefully he takes my previous post to heart.

Interesting point that Marklin has not been mentioned. From what I understand, DCC from Lenz is very popular in Europe and easy to obtain since the products are manufactured in Germany and have a solid reputation.

Railroading Brit, is Lenz the dominant command control product in your side of "The Pond"? Or, are DCC products pretty much spread out competitively?

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 4, 2005 7:04 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Did you just figure that out James? All anyone has to say is MTH or DCS, and they magicly appear.

The funny thing about this topic is, the tiltle says Marklin, but there hasn't been much mention of it.

I am genuinely curious as to what year consumers will actually have the option to purchase the HO version of DCS in their local hobby store. We can't keep having these discussions without a product to discuss.


Very well put - MTH products in general are near-impossible to buy here (there's no UK importer or dealer), that seems to go for most of Europe too. I do wonder if HO DCS will be quietly dropped, as trying to break into an established market is almost impossible if your product is incompatible with everyone else's...
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Big_Boy_4005
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Posted by Big_Boy_4005 on Sunday, December 4, 2005 2:18 AM
Did you just figure that out James? All anyone has to say is MTH or DCS, and they magicly appear.

The funny thing about this topic is, the tiltle says Marklin, but there hasn't been much mention of it.

I am genuinely curious as to what year consumers will actually have the option to purchase the HO version of DCS in their local hobby store. We can't keep having these discussions without a product to discuss.

I'm back!

Follow the progress:

http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/12129987972340381/page/1

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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 4, 2005 1:45 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Ted E. Bear

Jeff, your argument for DCC is a good one. Too bad Antonio is on the rag tonight.[banghead]


TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!! TROLL ALERT!!!!
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gvdobler
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Posted by gvdobler on Sunday, December 4, 2005 12:49 AM
MisterBeasley is correct about VHS and Beta. Beta was a superior technology with a slightly better picture quality, but acceptance or the lack of it, killed it. The tapes were a different size so people didn't want to have two types of video tape players. Now maybe if Sony had sued everyone that made VHS tapes, maybe we would be watching BetaMax now.

DCS may very well be a better technology but in the end DCC will prevail.

That's not meant to flame anyone, it is just the way it is.
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 3, 2005 10:36 PM
Jeff, your argument for DCC is a good one. Too bad Antonio is on the rag tonight.[banghead]
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jnichols
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Posted by jnichols on Saturday, December 3, 2005 10:25 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by MisterBeasley

Us old hands know this already (hey, I've know it for 6 months now,) but the important thing about DCC "compatability" is that, in general, any DCC-equipped locomotive will run on any DCC control system. I've got no argument with any of Jeff's other comments, since I've personally never even seen a DCS system, but for the sake of our "student," we should be clear about what is "open" about the DCC protocol.


Mister,

I have no arguement with what you're saying, in fact I agree with it 100%, but... The premise of my post was that MTH WILL have a DCC interface in the next generation DCS system. There have been rumors and rumblings about this for a long time, and it's the only plausable way for the DCS system to gain better acceptance amongst the DCC users IMHO. At that point, the DCS system would simply become another DCC command station... [;)]

Remember the point of my post was to illustrate the differences between DCC, a communcations protocol (for all intents and purposes), and DCS, a command control system from a manufacturer called MTH. Comparing the DCS system to DCC is like comparing a car to a house. Now reading about a Digitrax vs. DCS comparsion, or NCE vs. DCS comparison makes much more sense in my mind and should make for a great debate.

As it stands, MTH does not have a DCC interface, and comparing how the DCS system works to how a DCC system works is pretty pointless as the technologies currently being used are very different. All we can do is wait and see what happens, but if I were to offer someone looking at getting into command control some advice at this point, I would say pick up a DCC system get running trains. If the MTH interface is like the TMCC interface, you will probably need a DCC command station just to use it anyway... [;)]

Jeff
Jeff ww.trainshoppeslc.com
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AntonioFP45
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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Saturday, December 3, 2005 9:03 PM
Understood JNichols,

The more competitors in the market, the better.

Based on what I've seen and read though, pricewise, DCC with sound is the only direction I'll be headed in as the wide variety of options and great manufacturer support makes it very appealing to HO & N command control newbies like myself.

Personally, I think that if the QSI suit is dismissed or if MTH loses, then its likely the hard feelings expressed by the HO & N groups (which collectively is quite large) may subside a bit over time and more would be willing to at least look at it.

I'm only assuming, but now that Mike Wolf knows quite well that the model railroad community reacts very harshly to his style of litigation tactics, justifiable or not, he'll likely think twice before taking action that will negatively impact the HO and N markets.

JNIchols, with respect to your thoughtful post, I tend to agree with Mr. Beasley's above post.

Peace.

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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MisterBeasley
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Posted by MisterBeasley on Saturday, December 3, 2005 8:41 PM
Since the original purpose of this thread was to educate poor Explorer154, who must feel that he's somehow stumbled into a minefield, I'd like to set one thing straight for him. Us old hands know this already (hey, I've know it for 6 months now,) but the important thing about DCC "compatability" is that, in general, any DCC-equipped locomotive will run on any DCC control system. I've got no argument with any of Jeff's other comments, since I've personally never even seen a DCS system, but for the sake of our "student," we should be clear about what is "open" about the DCC protocol.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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jnichols
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Posted by jnichols on Saturday, December 3, 2005 8:09 PM
Normally I'm in the middle of these DCS vs. DCC discussions, but have stayed out of them lately simply because of the overwhelming amount of brain damage they cause, but here goes... [;)]

Honestly, I'm not really sure where MTH stands on the DCS in the HO market issue. Mike Wolf is not a dummy, and I'm quite certain he understands the grasp DCC has on the smaller scale markets. My opinion is and always will be that for DCS to be successful in these other markets, it must adapt to existing control standards. In the O scale market for example, TMCC control was integrated into the DCS system to make it compatible with other products. I see no reason why this step won't be taken once the DCS v3.0 equipment is available. I'm concerned that people don't get the difference between a proprietary command system and a proprietary protocol, and that more than anything fuels these litte this vs. that fires. This contention already exists in the DCC products we use everyday, and no one seems to give it a second thought. Examples?

So I go out and purchase a Digitrax system, can I use NCE or Lenz throttles with it? No, of course not. So let's take this further. I own an NCE system and I want to read back CV values from my Digitrax decoder equipped locomotives on the mainline in OPS mode, can I do this? Again the answer is no, but why not? They are both DCC compatible right? The answer is very simple. Each manufacturer has proprietary parts and pieces to their systems. This is what seperates system A from system B, and makes us spend our hard earned money one way or another. So along these lines, why would anyone care if the DCS system could talk to a DCC system? In my mind the sooner people start thinking of the DCS system as just another command control system (like Lenz, Digitrax and NCE are) and not some sort of Nazi take over the world box, the better off we will all be... [;)]

Look, the fact is the DCS system is very cool, very affordable, and has a throttle with a user interface that most DCC manufacturers and model railroaders would kill for. Being a DCS and Digitrax user, I can say without any sort of hesitation, the DCS system is light years ahead of the DCC stuff on the market now from these standpoints. Now keep in mind there are things that the DCS equipped locomotives will do that a DCC equipped locomotive won't, but my guess is once people use the DCS handheld, they will prefer running DCC equipped locomotives from it as well.

Lawsuits aside (this is another place where misinformation is running rampant but oh well), people who haven't used or seen the DCS system in action should give it a shot. I don't think MTH wants to rule the world, and I don't think they can hold the DCC movement back (nor do they want to). People need to start seperating the protocol from the command station, and look at the DCS system for what it is, a very user friendly and affordable entry in the command control marketplace. Now if MTH doesn't incorporate a DCC interface into their system, I'm not sure what will happen with them, but it would be a mistake in my mind....

Have a great weekend all!
Jeff ww.trainshoppeslc.com
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MisterBeasley
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Posted by MisterBeasley on Saturday, December 3, 2005 6:43 PM
Regardless of the relative technical merits of VHS vs Betamax, we all know what happened to Sony's entry into the videotape battle. The fact is, the battle is over, and DCC has won the market. Like Apple vs. the PC, there will always be some small community of DCS users around, but I don't think there's any way that it will ever be more than a niche market.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 3, 2005 6:26 PM
There's no question that DCS will blow DCC right out of the water. Just wait and see.[swg]
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 3, 2005 4:10 PM
yay I get to do my famous welcome
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As i always say
I think that speaks for itself
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 3, 2005 3:44 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The vast majority of HO modelers will be highly pleased with DCS once they try it.


That still doesn't negate the fact that DCS is a Proprietary Command Control System, and will never be as flexible as DCC. And what little I looked into it, DCS Seems to take at least 5 components to do everything it is touted to do. and In DCC, It takes three. ANd in Several system you can buy them all together in one neat self contained box.

Not tomention DCS won't run a DCC decoder. And if you expect that I am buying DCS modules to convert my fleet yet again. You are sadly mistaken.
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 3, 2005 3:34 PM
The vast majority of HO modelers will be highly pleased with DCS once they try it.
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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 2, 2005 6:40 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Student,

However, 1 3/4 years later things have seemed to move on. Soundtraxx, according to a DCC vendor that I contacted, is including Back EMF in the Tsunami decoders (though not officially annoucning it) and DCC's progress, which had been temporarily halted from the suit, is now moving ahead at a quick pace.

All available with DCC decoders and sound systems of varying price and performance levels. So for now it appears that the DCC manufacturers no longer have much to fear from MTH.




Antonio
You are correct about the Tsunami having the back EMF. I have three of them and have been trying to set them up correctly. The Tsunami is a great sounding unit, but the factory is working on some problems as we speak with it.

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AntonioFP45
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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Friday, December 2, 2005 1:58 PM
Student,

We're trying to avoid trashing MTH. Yes, most of us dislike the lawsuits that they've been involved in, but we've thrashed the MTH topics thoroughly on this forum already.

Just a suggestion that we avoid doing that, especially when newbies are chiming in with questions regarding DCC and DCS. Nothing wrong with bringing up the lawsuit issues as long as we discuss them civily. It is easy to sling rocks at MTH, I did it myself last year and realized that we need to maintain this forum's high quality.

BTW: MTH did not sue Soundtraxx. It sued QSI and "threatened" litigation to companies that employed the Back EMF in 1 scale m.p.h increments.

Remember guys, MTH, Lionel, and William are primarily toy train companies that operate under a completely different business mindset compared to "Model Railroad" manufacturers. For years these companies have litigated each other at one time or another so lawsuits seem to be "routine" for them.

When MTH sued QSI, MTH suddenly found itself at the receiving end of angry feelings from HO and N modelers. MTH's management was caught off guard as it discovered that scores of HO and N modelers were planning to boycott their new HO products as a result of the QSI suit. That was back in Jan 2004.

However, 1 3/4 years later things have seemed to move on. Soundtraxx, according to a DCC vendor that I contacted, is including Back EMF in the Tsunami decoders (though not officially annoucning it) and DCC's progress, which had been temporarily halted from the suit, is now moving ahead at a quick pace.

The new MTH K4 will be hitting the market soon, but fears that MTH will knock out DCC were greatly exaggerated. MTH will be facing stiff competition from BLI, Digitrax, Soundtraxx, Tower 55, Walthers Proto, and Horizon/Athearn.-----------All available with DCC decoders and sound systems of varying price and performance levels. So for now it appears that the DCC manufacturers no longer have much to fear from MTH.

So, let's try and stay positive guys!

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 2, 2005 1:48 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Explorer154

I am a Newcomer to model railroading. I was wondering if I can have some adivce and so -- thanks in advance.
I am interested in the HO scale (don't have room for the O scale) and I want DCS control. I narrowed my seach down to marklin DCS stater sets (such as the 29571) or the MTH DCS system.

I want a system that I can grow into. I know the Mth, I believe, as a wireless controller.

I would value your advice, Thanks - Explorer154[:)]


DCS has its great points and its not so great points. I use DCS for my # 1 scale since it is made for it, and it is far better than anything else on the market including the new Soundtraxx Tsunami's, which I have three of. The DCS control and sound is the best in the industry for # 1 scale, but I not heard any of the HO, correction, the only HO engine that will run on DCS.

DCS according to my knowledge is not compatible at this point to DCC wiring. My DCS will not recognize an engine if it is not turned the right direction on the track.. The remote will search for it and come back with "Engine not on Track"" , unless you change the polarity on the track. This is one of the worst of the DCS requirements, but would be impossible to overcome with a large layout in my opinion. .

The sound on the other hand is unbelievable and the whistle and exhaust is correct and right on for the particular engines. I have to admit that the #1 scale has a speaker that is almost 4 inches in diameter and that helps too.

I use Digitrax for my HO and would recommend that for any HO engine, but you should at least hear some others and decide what you want for your use.


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Anonymous
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 2, 2005 12:55 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Explorer154

I thought that DCS was the latest technology and you can do more with it?


That is exactly what MTH would want you to believe. But aside from being able to do all sorts of fancy show off for the little kids type whistles and bells. Compared to DCC. It might as well be a 20 year old analog command control system. In terms of actual model train control features. Compared to DCC its quite antiquated. Its about 20 times more complex from what I have seen as well.

Then if you abhore sleesy business ethics I would stay away from MTH as well. They are sueing any one and everyone who they can because they know their DCS system is not competitive. They were sueing the people who make the Soundtrax Brand of DCC sound componets because Soundrax was making a New intigrated DCC Decoder and Soundboard that changed what the sound was doing based on a basic electromagnetic property called Back Electro-Magnetic Force. Back EMF for short. (Its OK its way above my had to.) Anyway MTH sued Soundtraxx (As well as several other firms like QSI) for infringing on their patent of "Back EMF" like he invented the thing or something. And it has been something that has been around since someone invented a device to run off of electricity. What ever bacame of the MTH Soundtraxx Suit I do not know. Soundtraxx finally brought out the product they were beuing sued over so I think they probably won the case.

As for the Marklin system. I hear good things about it. However from what I know about Marklin is that it is for use with Models that run on their Three Rail system. (Alot like lionel) and doesn't have an application in two rail model railroading. I could be wrong because I am not that familiar with the marklin system. But that is my general impression.

if you are looking for a good Digital Command Control System, I reccomend looking into the following firms.

Digitrax,
Lenz
North Coast Enginering (Often listed as NCE)

All three of these firms make highly reccomended Digital Command Control Systems, and any DCC equipped locomotive will work on these systems. The only thing left for you is check them out, and figure out what company has the User Interface that you are the most comfortable with and go from there.

I personally Use the Digitrax system and I find that for what I am doing their system is the most flexible in my case.

Welcome to Model Railroading. and have a pleasent day.

James
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AntonioFP45
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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Friday, December 2, 2005 8:35 AM
Explorer.................[#welcome][#welcome][swg][tup]

In case no one told you before, nice to have you onboard.

DCS has its benefits, but as stated above it is basically proprietary. You may have or have not heard about the controversy surrounding MTH and the lawsuit that has involved the DCC industry. So that's why some of the responses you see on this thread regarding DCS may seem a bit harsh.

In fariness though, those that respond should make the effort to stay "neutral" and respond as to the uses of the products themselves.

DCC, in my humble opinion, would be the better way for you to go in that there are a wide variety of high quality products from the competing DCC manufacturers. As a result of this, the prices on many DCC related products and components have actually DROPPED in the past 2 years. Decoders that once sold for $40 to $70 are now ranging from $15 to $40. Sound decoders have also become much more affordable by the average working man, woman, and youth.

In comparison, DCS for HO is considerably more expensive and as mentioned is proprietary. There are a couple of extra goodies thrown in, like "train station announcements". MTH's website is

http://www.mth-railking.com

For DCC checking out the following websites is a must:

http://www.litchfieldstation.com ( When you get here, click on University)

http//:www.Tonystrains.com

These two DCC dealers have very good reputations. Both have information links that you can click on explaining in detail how DCC and its related components work.

I'm electronically "challenged" yet once I saw the features, benefits, and operational freedom DCC offers, I climbed onboard the train!

Hope this helps! [:D][8D][;)]

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Anonymous
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 2, 2005 8:04 AM
Marklin don't use DCS either - DCS is only used by MTH and nobody else, it's a proprietory system, so you're at the mercy of their possible future decisions to jack the price up or even cease production - you'd be back in the early days of command control when you had to get all the parts from one manufacturer. MTH have so far only announced one loco in HO too - a PRR K4 which has yet to see the light of day at dealers and by most reports doesn't look that great either. Obtaining extra decoders will most likely be either impossible or at best costly and difficult.

You can have all the extras you mention with DCC and you'll have far more choice of manufacturers, as well as the fact that it's a widely accepted standard resulting in lower prices. Trix have DCC starter sets if you want to stick with the Marklin-type build quality (Marklin and Trix are both part of the same company, Trix offer 2-rail versions of the Marklin equipment). Bear in mind that Marklin locos and cars will only run on their 3-rail AC system, though cars can be rewheeled if there's a particular model you really want.
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Anonymous
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 2, 2005 7:59 AM
I thought that DCS was the latest technology and you can do more with it?
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MisterBeasley
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Bedford, MA, USA
  • 21,483 posts
Posted by MisterBeasley on Friday, December 2, 2005 7:47 AM
Why do you want DCS rather than DCC? Those of us who use DCC are all very happy with it. DCC has far more vendors, far more products and is a much more widely accepted standard.

If you do get trains running with DCS, take some video with your Betamax and send it to us, OK?

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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