Whats the deal with Tyco collectors ?

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffers_mz

My dad probably has the largest collection of brass garden hose nozzles on earth.

Ask him why and he can't tell you.

Just bitten by a bug I guess.

For the same reason anyone collects anything.. For some reason he enjoys them.

The thrill of the hunt is a powerful collection builder.. I have friends, and I'll never fully understand it, who have sunk $$$ THOUSANDS $$$into Hotwheels.. I mean to the point of second mortgages on thier homes to cover the credit card bills from them.. I've seen them spend $400 on a Single Car.. JUST because it had a certain Stipe on the Wheels or 4 spokes instead of 5... This is a car mind you that if you found it at a Wallymart would cost all of a $1.25. They have Networks of collector buddies working in these places who will dig the Choice pieces out of the crates and set them aside... You want to talk about insane??? Remember BEANIE BABIES?? How much did the fools sink into THOSE worthless bean bags?? People actually Fought over them in the stores.. I don't think people enjoying collecting Tyco trains have ANYTHING on these people. Even the Tyco collectors have a limit.

Jeff
[8D]

[Anonymous]

Don't get me started on the Hotwheels collectors. I've heard horro stories from people who work at stores.

Anyway. This http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20051116.html is probably my favorite take on collectors, and fandoms.

I really need to dust my Transformers collection....

[IRONROOSTER]

BTW for those interested in collecting Tyco, check out this site http://tycotrain.tripod.com/tycotrains/
Enjoy
Paul

[CNJ831]

In all the foregoing discussion I think that a critical point never brought up is that there is a vast chasm between a group of items considered to be a collection and items that are collectible.

A collection may consist of just about anything but may or may not be of any intrinsic value. A collectible, on the other hand, by virture of its historic importance, artistic appeal, great craftsmanship, etc. is recognized within a given field of interest as of intrinsic monetary value. You may be a collector of string but it will never have value except to yourself. If you collect paintings by Jasper Cropsey you'll have something worth a fortune.

In HO, perhaps unlike Lionel, there are very few items worthy of recognition as potential collectibles. The pre-war sheet brass consolidations by Varney and Mantua, AF's pre-war Hudson, PennLine's RDG Crusader, even Laconia's Mathieson dry ice reefer, could rank as collectible, since they represent either early milestones in the hobby or totally unique rolling stock only ever offered once (outside of brass). Rarely, items from a historic layout would be classified as collectible - the engines, rolling stock, or structures from John Allen's G&D would command a great price if they still existed.

On the otherhand, a grouping of fiber and sectional Atlas track, McHenry couplers, or Tyco rollingstock is just simply a collection and has, nor does it deserve, any excessive or special monetary value. As mentioned by others upstream, there are individuals who are willing to spend outrageous sums on just about any item you can name...but that does not necessarily make the item in question truly valuable or a collectible. And junk is ever junk.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

There's a "new Boxed" Tyco Turbotrain on ebay UK at the moment - £15 (about $25) - I wonder how hard it would be to fit DCC to one of those...

[Anonymous]

I wanted a few 40 foot gondolas to haul pulpwood loads, like I watched as a child in Nekoosa Wisconsin. I picked up a few Tyco gons at yard sales or swap meets, replaced the cast on grabs and stirrups with metal wire ones, drilled out the boltsters and inserted a sleeve made from plastic tube, tapped that for a screw. mounted GOOD trucks with metal wheels, and added Kadee couplers, carefully selected and mounted to specs. With the weight of the load (REAL wood pulp sized logs I made and glued together, they opperate well, and look good. I decalled them for the roads that served NEPCO in Nekoosa, and I'm happy with the results.

Now I am converting a few talk cars in the same manner, adding weight to the inside of the tank as I go.

They STILL might not look as good as the 20 dollar cars I could buy, but I enjoy doing it, and they run well.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dragonriversteel

Over the past three months,while searching for kits on e-bay. I always run across collections of tyco junk.Whats the deal with them ? Are they filler cars ,for yards. Are collectors really keeping these loco's and cars for show and tell ? As a kid years ago,I had two tyco train sets...one was a Rock island baldwin sharknose,the other was a IC steel hauler. After they crapped the bed,so to speak.
I got rid of them...retired to the scrap yard. Whats the value of these make believe toy trains ? In my opinion...they were crap then and they are crap now. The only cool freight car ,tyco made and I still hunt for is the operateing clam-shell two bay hoppers. I just don't understand ,what the big deal is about these tyco loco's and car's. I do realize that they have been out of production for years,but sheezzzzzz,26 bidders and 300 bucks for tyco junk. I don't get it...I quess if thats your thing,you'll collect rolls of toilet paper too. This post is not intened to tick anyone off....just my opinion.What that saying...opinion's are like [censored] ,everybody's got one.

Patrick

Many people out there collect various items. What may be junk to you may be useable by someone else. .

[davekelly]

Makes you wonder what happened to those weird folks that collected glassware made during the depression. That stuff was junk. To have such a collection today . . . . . . .

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Makes you wonder what happened to those weird folks that collected glassware made during the depression. That stuff was junk. To have such a collection today . . . . . . .

It's also fascinating to visit antique stores and see ordinary things from my childhood on sale for $5, 10, 20, or more. Makes me wish I could have saved all my toys and Mom's everyday dishes[:D]
Enjoy
Paul

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Makes you wonder what happened to those weird folks that collected glassware made during the depression. That stuff was junk. To have such a collection today . . . . . . .

It's also fascinating to visit antique stores and see ordinary things from my childhood on sale for $5, 10, 20, or more. Makes me wish I could have saved all my toys and Mom's everyday dishes[:D]
Enjoy
Paul

Sadly, this is today a vicious pricing cycle being driven, in part, by shows like Antique Roadshow, Find! and similar venues to public TV. Viewers see some old, time-worn but genuine item that gets appraised for umpteen thousand bucks and think, "Hey, I've got something just like that (but really not) in the basement." The result? Instant valuable antique!

Same goes for many "antique" shops and flea markets. Simply because its old and on display, it must be worth money, no matter how broken or crummy it is. Folks walk in, see the price tag on this junk and say, "Wow, these people must know what they're doing so it must be valuable." In my youth this was called scamming and some disreputable shops even had a shill on premises to aid in boosting the discussion of price/value. Today the practice has gone mainstream on eBay and the like.

Yes, there certainly are valuable antiques out there but junk is forever junk...except to the ignorant!

CNJ831

[davekelly]

If someone sees something they want and are willing to pay a certain price for it and it makes them happy, why are they ignorant?

[areibel]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

If someone sees something they want and are willing to pay a certain price for it and it makes them happy, why are they ignorant?

AMEN!!

I'm glad there are so many Master Modelers on this forum that can look down their noses at all that inferior junk that some people like!
Too bad they don't start quality posts!!

[CNJ831]

For two reasons, Dave. They are allowing themselves to be ripped off out of sheer ignorance of the object's true value, non-rarity, whatever...an example of the old adage that a fool and his money are soon parted. Secondly, and arguably more importantly, if others observe or see record of such a purchase it can establish an artificially high value for the rest of us when the next example is offered up for sale. I was into antique book collecting at one time and saw this happen repeatedly. I've also seen folks pay $200 or more for common repros of MR Vol. 1 passed off as the originals. It is also not uncommon that, once an inflated price is established because of some fool, it becomes a "standard" among sellers, who will not lower the price of the next example offered back to the real range even if the item fails to sell repeatedly. Yet another class of fools!

CNJ831

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

If someone sees something they want and are willing to pay a certain price for it and it makes them happy, why are they ignorant?

There's a scene in the movie "The Jerk" (Steve Martin as Navin Johnson, the white son of black sharecroppers) where his father takes a can of shoe polish and compares it to a pile of [censored] on the ground. "Son, that's [censored] and what's in this can is Shinola".

If someone's happy paying outrageous dollars for [censored] all the while being under the misapprehension that it's Shinola, I'm going to giggle. If that person is happy with [censored], that's fine with me. However, I'm not going to restrain my own enjoyment of the situation. After all, for me the enjoyment is free.

There are a lot of "collectors" out there who are apparently under the illusion that the stuff they are collecting is something of an "investment", something that will only increase in value over time. I suppose if someone pays $300 for a piece of Tyco junk originally costing $10, that it has, temporarily. Unfortunately, that piece of Tyco junk has no intrinsic worth. There's nothing of real value underpinning the price. Kinda like Enron, only people won't lose their jobs or retirement funds when the Tyco "bubble" bursts. Hmm. Of course, I suppose someone's retirement fund could consist of a Tyco collection.

The fact that someone is blissful doesn't mean they aren't ignorant.

Andre

[SMassey]

While I dont collect Tyco trains they are the trains that got me into HO scale model railroading.My first set was the Chatanooga Choo Choo set that my dad bought as a christmas train when I was only 3 (1978) I still have it today (body is in great shape but the motor is gone and the trucks are missing the glued on sideframes) I fell in love with that train and always wanted to have a layout in my room. Now I am 31 and I have a layout in my room (it is in the master bdrm) and I owe that to the little toy orange and yellow GP-20. I would not say that I am a collector even tho I still have alot of my old tyco stuff. I even went as far as keeping my BN GP-20 on my dresser to keep reminding me that I had a dream as a kid of building my own Railroad someday. I now have my own little railroad called the South Massey Railroad and I thank Tyco for it.

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

For two reasons, Dave. They are allowing themselves to be ripped off out of sheer ignorance of the object's true value, non-rarity, whatever...an example of the old adage that a fool and his money are soon parted. Secondly, and arguably more importantly, if others observe or see record of such a purchase it can establish an artificially high value for the rest of us when the next example is offered up for sale. I was into antique book collecting at one time and saw this happen repeatedly. I've also seen folks pay $200 or more for common repros of MR Vol. 1 passed off as the originals. It is also not uncommon that, once an inflated price is established because of some fool, it becomes a "standard" among sellers, who will not lower the price of the next example offered back to the real range even if the item fails to sell repeatedly. Yet another class of fools!

CNJ831

One of the interesting things that Ebay has done is to change the pricing structure of a lot of collectibles. Since it is so easy for anyone to sell to a nationwide market a lot of prices have come down. My wife recently got rid of some "collectibile" plates. Checking on ebay she found most of them offered for sale, but most of them closed with no bidders and the couple of ones that did were for $5. I suspect the toy train collectors market will self correct also.

The other thing that I've seen happen is that someone decides to redo an item that becomes highly priced. I've seen that happen with some books whose prices were getting high. For Example, "The Maine Two-Footers - By Linwood Moody has been rereleased in a new edition for $45. I had seen prices on the original as high as $175.

Enjoy
Paul

[palallin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl
[To answer the "Lionel" question, you have to remember, this is closer to antique collecting than model railroading. Most people that buy these collector's items display them, they don't run them.

No longer true: an increasingly large number of Lionel collectors are running their trains. And those will remain running long after most anything ever made in HO has long since died. The very first lionel O gauge train ever made (1915--now in the hands of Paul Wasserman, current president of the TCA) still runs as well as the day it was made.

[palallin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831Yes, there certainly are valuable antiques out there but junk is forever junk...except to the ignorant!

Or it may be that the ignorant think so.

It is not at all uncommon for the cheaper train sets of history to command huge prices today. Far fewer have survived than the impressive, more expensive items. Consider some of the early clockwork sets. Surving exxamples of some sets in decent condition may be numbered on one hand, but hundreds of thousands were made. They were made to be disposible junk. They have since become valuable antiques.

And no one is qualified to sneer at anyone else's tastes. Nobody.

[tsgtbob]

Ok, here's my .02
After the original Lionel folded up shop in Hillside NJ, some of the employees moved over to Tyco/Mantua. That included Frank Petit. Frank was one of Lionel's crack accessory designers (milk car if memory serves me correctly) The tyco accessories were well designed,, but made with such poor quality control the crapped out rather quickly. Same with the 70's vintage engines. Until the early 90s, the only big Alcos that were available were the Tyco 430/630!
I have several of the items from the 70s period, and yes they are crap mechanically, but the die work is above average for the period.
Remember these were toys, not scale models for the hardcore modeller. They also got many thousands into the hobby, and in that respect they were outstanding items.
I converted several C-630s and C430s to modern "blue box" Athearn drives, sitting on fabricated brass frames. I still run them occasionally, as the focus of my modeling has shifted from "freelance roadname" to a more prototype approach whth Chessie in the 70s.

[RedGrey62]

I, like so many others on this post, started this hobby in earnest with a Tyco train set. Mine was the Spirit of 1776. I had others and yes, the motors gradually burnt out. I got my first Athearn engine and it pulled a wide assortment of Tyco, AHM, and Athearn BB (also one Fleischman UP boxcar that had weird couplers!). I eventually gave all the Tyco stuff away to a brother in law who just wanted to display some trains on his bar.

A few years ago I was in a LHS, I looked up and saw a familiar Tyco box with a WM flat and 3 tractors. The memories it brought back were astounding, I was a kid again, with my empire laid out on my bedroom floor. I didn't buy that flat car, I'm into other aspects of the hobby now. But I can see where many of the baby boomers may be trying to capture a little of the magic of their youth. These cheap toys may not be valuable, but to some, they may be priceless.

Rick

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by palallin

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831Yes, there certainly are valuable antiques out there but junk is forever junk...except to the ignorant!

Or it may be that the ignorant think so.

It is not at all uncommon for the cheaper train sets of history to command huge prices today. Far fewer have survived than the impressive, more expensive items. Consider some of the early clockwork sets. Surving exxamples of some sets in decent condition may be numbered on one hand, but hundreds of thousands were made. They were made to be disposible junk. They have since become valuable antiques.

And no one is qualified to sneer at anyone else's tastes. Nobody.

Why does mere scarcity make something a valuable antique? About 10 years ago, I bought an old 1910 era toaster that still functions. I didn't buy it to be part of a collection, but because I was fascinated with the mechanism. It toasts one side and then you flip a lever and it toasts the other. As toasters go, it's very inefficient (i.e. a lot of heat is wasted). Once or twice a year, I'll make some toast with it and then put it back on display. I have no intention of collecting old toasters, this one just caught my eye with its ingenious method of toasting both sides of the bread. Obviously, the thing was built before someone got the brilliant idea of enclosing the heating elements and having heating elements on both sides of the bread. Despite its deficiences in terms of thermal efficiency, it's a well made item and should last for a long time. The only part that might need replacing in the next 100 years is the heating element and that's a not hard part to replace.

I paid $75 for this little gem. Like I said, it's well made and was not designed to be a piece of disposable junk. I suppose if it were a piece of disposable junk from the get-go, it would have sold for $750 ten years ago if scarcity were the only criterion. I have no idea how many of these things survive. Maybe I should put it on eBay to find out if there's someone willing to pay $750 for it. Maybe more. There's some dude asking $12000+ for an O scale cab-forward from the 50's (probably a Max Gray). That toaster has to be rarer than a Max Gray cab-forward.

Naw. It's not for sale. I kinda enjoy the ritual of making toast with it on occasion.

My only regret is passing up on all the Tyco junk and Lionel HO junk that was common when I was much younger. My retirement would be secure.[:D]

OTOH, if I could get my hands on a Varney Super Pacific for a reasonable price, I might. But only if I could get it for no more than the cost of a Westside or Balboa brass version of an SP P-10. The Varney Pacific was based on an SP prototype and the Super Pacific was ahead of its time. But then, again, it wasn't a piece of disposable junk, either. I've seen a number of the Standard Pacifics for sale, but not yet a Super Pacific.

Were I ever to buy a Varney Super Pacific, it would be because I'm fascinated with the mechanism not because it's a "collectible".

Remind me to tell you about the time my wife managed to pick up an old floor model Gramophone (you know, the kind you wind up). It's a beautiful piece of furniture and it still works. I don't know how she did it, but she got it for cheap. Included were several old records, including an original recording of Enrico Caruso (single sided at that). My guess is that the record is more valuable than the gramophone.

Incidentally, way back when, things weren't designed to be disposable junk the way they are now. Even an old wind-up train, if cared for properly, would last a long time unless there were some flaw in the metal castings/stampings.

Andre

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by palallin

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831Yes, there certainly are valuable antiques out there but junk is forever junk...except to the ignorant!

Or it may be that the ignorant think so.

It is not at all uncommon for the cheaper train sets of history to command huge prices today. Far fewer have survived than the impressive, more expensive items. Consider some of the early clockwork sets. Surving exxamples of some sets in decent condition may be numbered on one hand, but hundreds of thousands were made. They were made to be disposible junk. They have since become valuable antiques.

And no one is qualified to sneer at anyone else's tastes. Nobody.

Palallin - The point of the discussion was never about peoples personal tastes. It was about whether or not the items in question had any intrinsic monetary value and that is quite a different matter that can be spoken to with some authority. When talking about Tyco trains, we are not discussing anything like rare Lionel or Ives trains from the teens, which were mostly of very high quality, expensive, and valued items even at time of their manufacture. What is being address here is literally cheap, plastic, throw-away trains from 30-odd years ago. They were never of any quality, ever considered as such, nor meant to be. Junk does not acquire value simply through age or scarcity.

CNJ831

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by palallin

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831Yes, there certainly are valuable antiques out there but junk is forever junk...except to the ignorant!

Or it may be that the ignorant think so.

It is not at all uncommon for the cheaper train sets of history to command huge prices today. Far fewer have survived than the impressive, more expensive items. Consider some of the early clockwork sets. Surving exxamples of some sets in decent condition may be numbered on one hand, but hundreds of thousands were made. They were made to be disposible junk. They have since become valuable antiques.

And no one is qualified to sneer at anyone else's tastes. Nobody.

One thing that should be remembered about some of this stuff, particularly Pre-WWII items, a LOT of it was given up in scrap drives for the war effort... Tin, Copper, Steel, Aluminum, Rubber, Paper, if it was in any way recyclable, it was used. Also, I could be wrong about this, but the buy it up and put it in storage collector craze hasn't always existed.. People have always collected things but not to the extent they do today.. Meaning, Toys were played with, as they were meant to be, and wore out, got recycled somehow, or simply tossed out.. For whatever reason.. Junior grew up, got married, moved out, mom cleaned out his room and tossed a lot of 'disposable junk' .. How many of you had baseball card collections in the 1950s that Mom threw away as junk??? THOSE, I believe, are some of the factors that make an item Rare, and to some, collectable.

I've heard this said more times than I care to count, "the reason Lionel collectors are so interested in the items is an attempt to recapture some of the childhood".. I suspect the same holds true for the late baby boomers as well with respect to Tyco (to keep the thread on topic)..

To restate what you said,

QUOTE: And no one is qualified to sneer at anyone else's tastes. Nobody.

My further [2c]
Jeff
[:)]

[JamesPH1966]

Personally - I think a cherished toy from one's childhood (for example - my Tyco Royal Blue 2-8-0 that died after a month of running, got it for Christmas 1979) has more "intrinsic value" than, say, some $1,500.00 Purple Box product made in the 1990's and never enjoyed (check out what tinplaters pay for stuff). If Tyco is/was junk, so be it - it's better than buying most "collectables" (think about something like Beenie Babies - not collectability as much as obsessive compulsive disorder in action). IF someone really wants an old junky Tyco AND this person has enough sense not to get ripped-off, so be it. I think the problem isn't that the original product is/was junk but rather that the uneducated collector might want to check before paying an outrageous price for the item in question.

I think in Latin it's called caveat emptor...

[davekelly]

How about the prices some idiots pay for old postage stamps. Some of them pay big bucks for, get this, foreign stamps. Just try using them to send a letter through the U.S. Postal System. Some of the bigger fools will even pay several bucks for a stamp that has it's value, 3 cents, printed right on the thing!!! Heck, some of them are even cancelled and thus worthless!! Talk about paying bucks for junk with no intrinsic value!! I guess P.T. Barnum was right . . . .thank God we're all genius' here!

[TomDiehl]

A scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" probably explains this situation best. The French Archiologist that was always causing Indiana Jones problems holds up a pocket watch. "What is this? You can buy it from a street vendor for a dollar. But bury it in the desert for 1000 years, it becomes priceless." Collectors of ANYTHING can come under this spell.

[warhammerdriver]

I have quite a bit of Tyco stuff accumulated over the years. Not because I collect it, but because family members knew eventually I was going to have my railroad and gave it to me.

Sometime in the next year, I will be starting construction of my first permanent layout. I plan to run those Tyco products at the start. Over time, they will be replaced. But as a beginner, they will serve a purpose--someplace to start.

As far as collecting it, I suppose everyone collects something. Who am I to judge?

[warhammerdriver]

OT: What is it with the italics on this BB? This is the second time I've tried to use them and they didn't work.

[Anonymous]

Trains You Can't Operate -i'll use old tyco engines beyond repair for paint practice- thought about getting an Athearn F7 and putting the TYCO F7/F9 C&NW shell on it- i have one of those 50' BN boxcars someone mentioned on here and it's my favorite freight car- got it for $1.50 in the bargan bin at the LHS

[tsgtbob]

After reading this (20 minutes of my life, never to be recovered) I dug out some of my old Tyco stuff. The ATSF F-9s still ran, as did the '76 C-430. (remember the Buy-centennial?) So did the 4-6-2.
I recently had a friend bring me a Lionel SD-18 from the early 90s. Guess what, didn/t run. Electronics that cannot be repaired.
Another example was an Athearn GP-50. Motor burned up on it, now, Athearn motors are really easy to get, but it soured this guy on Atheran.
I like the Tyco stuff as a nostalgia item, especally the accessories. Most don't work anymore, but that don't stop me from finding more of 'em. Put it on the Stonycreek Valley line of Chessie? Probally not, but on a loop on the floor for the neighborhood kids, yup, I'll use 'em