Yard Signal Lights

[edkowal]

Dave:

I see your point.

My discussion was directed toward whether you would be using some sort of signal to control movement into the yard,as suggested by Fergmeister. In attempting to provide too much information I muddied the waters for myself. Once you're past the "Yard Limits" sign, or equivalently, past the point designated in the timetable, should the sign be down, you're in the yard, even if you're on the main track. So, as you say, per rule 93, the main may be used without protection.

What I was trying to indicate was that the dwarf signals were probably not related to block occupancy.

-Ed

[dehusman]

Yard limits are often misunderstood by the model RR set.

Yard tracks may be within yard limits but the authority to operate on them is NOT conveyed by yard limits. Read Rule 93:

Within Yard Limits, the main track may be used without protecting against (2nd, 3rd) claa, extra trains and engines.

Note it says the MAIN track may be used. Not a word about any other tracks. Just the MAIN track.

Dave H.

[edkowal]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Tacks in a yard are NOT, repeat NOT governed by yard limits. ONLY the main track is under yard limits.

I was a little surprised by this statement, so decided to look things up.

From a copy of a NYC rulebook for 1937, I found the following definitions.

Yard - A system of tracks within defined limits provided for the making up of trains, storing of cars and other purposes, over which movements not authorized by time-table, or by train order, may be made, subject to prescribed signals and rules, or special instructions.

Yard Engine - An engine assigned to yard service and working within yard limits.

By these I took it to mean that yard tracks are within yard limits.

-Ed

[nbrodar]

Once again, my fellow professional railroader Dave H. is correct. We are dealing with swich lights, NOT repeat NOT, any type of mainline signaling showing track occupancy or speed indication. They preform the same function as the targets on the switch stands.

He is also correct that in real railroads at least two aspects are used to provide "fail-safe" protection in case the signal fails. Having said that, it is a reasonable fudge to use one light for a model. Both for simplity of operation and installation.

Nick

[icmr]

I agree with nbrodar, no light for straight, and yellow for diverging.



ICMR

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[dehusman]

Tacks in a yard are NOT, repeat NOT governed by yard limits. ONLY the main track is under yard limits.

Movement in tracks in a yard are covered under a rule governing movement on tracks other than a main track.

You can have a signal system on the main track through Yard Limits and in some rule books if you enter yard limits moving on a signal better than an approach you can move at the maximum track speed or the speed of the signal. So if you are on a 50 mph subdivision and the last signal you passed prior to entering yard limits was clear (green) you can whiz through the yard limits at 50 mph.

Yard limits per se do not require the permission of the yardmaster to use the main track (rule 93 gives trains the authority). If yardmasters give "authority" or "permission" to use the main track, they become covered under the hours of service law the same as a dispatcher or control operator.

Signals on yard tracks should not be confused with automatic block signals. They won't mean the same things, they won't work the same as mainline signals, they won't be covered by the same rules. Most likely there will be a set of special instructions or general orders that cover the operation of those signals.

Dark=lined normal is not a good idea since it violates a fundamental signal rule, that of "failing safe". If the red bulb burns out or a wire comes loose, you will indicate the switch is lined normal when it is not.

Dave H.

[accord1959]

There are also single aspect dwarf signals used as switching signals in Canada, these display yellow when the switching route is lined and red when it is not. As long as the signal is yellow movements can move in either direction past the signal. These signals are controlled by the dispatcher and he will ask permission to take the signal away from the train crew before he takes away the signal. Crews must call the dispatcher to request these signals.

[accord1959]

In Canada the one light dwarf aspect is common in yards. Signals entering main line can display yellow - restricting signal, flashing yellow - slow to stop signal, green - slow to clear signal, and of coarse red - stop. I'm not sure if these type of signals are the same on American railroads. Hope this helps.

[edkowal]

This sounds like a good question to ask on either the Trains forum on this website, or alternatively, on the Ry-ops-industrialSIG discussion on Yahoo groups:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ry-ops-industrialSIG/?yguid=6304759

I believe what follows is a correct answer, but am not certain. Either of the two groups above would have experts to answer with authority.

The tracks in a yard would be within yard limits. Those limits would be spelled out for each yard in the employee timetable, in a section toward the end dealing with special circumstances. Entrance into yard limits would. I believe, be under the authority of the yardmaster. Which means you would have to notify the yardmaster by radio (in the 60's) and receive permission to enter the yard. I don't _think_ that there would be a signal set up at the entrance to yard limits to control entry to the yard. There _would_ be a signal controlling entrance to the mainline, ie, exit from yard limits.

Trains within yard limits, as well as switching engines within yard limits, don't use signals to indicate track occupancy in a block ahead. Blocks are a mainline type of concept. The dwarf signals you are describing are more likely to be turnout position indicators, ie, another type of switchstand lantern. When in yard limits, you proceed prepared to stop short of any obstructions ahead, whether another engine, a cut of cars, a switchman or brakeman, or an open switch,. The dwarf indicators help to tell you whether the switch you are approaching is set for you or not.

Remember, though, this is information from someone who has never worked on a railroad. Someone who has, or an expert on operations, will have the definite answer.

-Ed

[jrbernier]

I think he is talking about 'switch indicators', not a 'signal system' here. Look through the Walthers catalog and find some small dwarf signals with just a single bi-color LED. I have seen prototype yards with color indicators on the yard switches(BNSF Northtown as 'wjstix' mentioned).

Jim

[Don Gibson]

FACING: I think you want AMBER and GREEN signals and red for turnout's at the other end, to show a closed switch.

2. Your signals are obviously too close for the excessive car overhang.
WORST CASE: drill holes and insert Grain-of-wheat bulb's directly into ground, and feed them off track. BETTER: use switch machine's contact's.

3. GOWheat bulbs are 12 volt's and offer simplicity. LED'S require resistor's, and bi-colored ones require more circuitry to reverse polarity or show amber.

[nbrodar]

Like I said, switch lights are governed by timetable special instructions. So, you can make up what ever indication you wish. How about no light for straight, and yellow for diverging?

Nick

[Fergmiester]

Is there a "no" light for the switch is clear? I have a lot of track converging into a bottle neck and ther maybe to much light, which will cause mayhem and confusion.

Fergie

[nbrodar]

Tomar makes dwarf signals using two lead bi-polar LEDs so a polarity change (as used to control Trotoise machines) changes the signals indication. Switch indicators are a local thing that are covered with timetable special instructions.

Try green for normal movement, and red for diverging movement.

Nick

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MisterBeasley

Are you using the signals as occupancy detectors, or as turnout position indicators?


Oregon Rail Supply makes single-light, dual color dwarf signals. They use 3-lead, 2-color (red/green) LEDs. The signals have small plastic mounts for them, and the current-limiting resistors you'll need. You can get the same LEDs and resistors for less money from an online electronics supply (I use Demar, but there are lots of others) but then you don't get the housings.

These will be use for turnout position indicators both on the track and control board.

I have bi-coloured LED's but was wondering if in some yards the red light was used to indicate turnout in the "closed" position.

Fergie

[wjstix]

Kind of two things going on here. RR's do use dwarf signals as essentially the lowest head of an interlocking signal, in that case the dwarf would show green when set for the 'normal' setting (like the main track) and red when going thru the other 'diverging' leg of the turnout. I don't know in a yard that they would have sensors wired up to the track to indicate occupancy, with that many turnouts in a yard ladder I doubt they would.

IF you're modelling recent years, I remember seeing in BN's Northtown Yard in Minneapolis separate turnout indicators next to the turnouts. They were smallish rectangular boxes essentially, like a square LED, side by side, one red and one green. These were separate from the regular RR signals. Something like that might be more what you're looking for. I don't have pics I can post of it but maybe someone else does??

[MisterBeasley]

Are you using the signals as occupancy detectors, or as turnout position indicators?

Either way, you'll need something to drive the LEDs. Tortoise machines have built-in contacts you can wire, if you're using the lights for turnout position. If you're using other switch machines, then you'll need some sort of relay to control the LEDs. I'm doing it this way for some of my turnouts. Their wired up so the LED is green for one path and red for the other.

Oregon Rail Supply makes single-light, dual color dwarf signals. They use 3-lead, 2-color (red/green) LEDs. The signals have small plastic mounts for them, and the current-limiting resistors you'll need. You can get the same LEDs and resistors for less money from an online electronics supply (I use Demar, but there are lots of others) but then you don't get the housings.

[dehusman]

Why do you need lights into the yard tracks? What are you trying to indicate?

Normally lights into a yard track is either red or lunar.

If you give a green/proceed signal, how are you going to signal them to stop at the other end?

If you give them a yellow signal that means to reduce to 30 mph (do you really have a 30 mph speed in your yard?) and prepare to stop short of the next signal. Is there a next signal for them to stop short of?

Dave H.

[jrbernier]

Which Walther lights? Maybe these are 'bi-color' LED's that can show both aspects from a single LED.

Jim

[waltersrails]

i would set the lights a little farther back to give cleance. one the light staying red not sure

[cwclark]

If you want it prototype you're going to have to install train detection circuits to show "block occupancy" which works by current passing thru a locomotive motor on the siding or rolling stock that have resistors across the wheel sets to keep a current flowing and keep the lights red when occupying a block...the dwarf signals should be either red or green...green for an unocupied block and red for an occupied block..you can accompli***his by using a two headed LED signal with red and a green lens or a single head LED with a bi-colored LED...I just got through wiring some train detection circuits using DALLEE circuits...I had to install 1 train detection circuit per block and then had to also install a devise called a "keep alive" which introduces a small current across the rails when the power is off and the trian isn't running in the particular block(it's connected directly from the power pack to the block wiring) ...it's too complicated to explain how to wire it all, but Dallee also has a wiring book available for you to accomplish what you want...another way to do it is to use the extra contacts like the ones on an atlas relay or a tortoise machine... it will work, but in some instances, it won't be prototype...go to www.dallee.com for the complete listing of train occupancy detectors...it's under the title: automatic signalling or words to that effect ....chuck

[Fergmiester]

I'm in the process of completing my Freight Yard and have run into several snags.

1. I was going to use 2 light dwarf signals for the entrance into the yard but due to clearance restrictions the longer cars clipped the signals. 0 clearance on 6 turnouts.

2. Went to switch stands. This actually gave me better clearance but not enough. 0 clearance on 3/6 turnouts.

I then hauled out the Walther's Catalogue and they have single light dwarf signals. Because of their low profile they will work.

My question is: Do these lights only show red when the turnout ison is diverted to the other track? Or do the colours changedepending on orientation?

Fergie

PS I'm modelling 1960@