Need help with the history of reefer cars...

[Jetrock]

Normally the upright brake wheel is intended for access from on top of the car, so if you run in a modern enough era that your boxcars don't have walkways, then the upright brakewheels probably wouldn't be appropriate.

Iced refrigerator cars stayed at 36' long after most boxcars were 40-50 feet because icing stations all over the country were set up for 36' reefers.

PFE color schemes were pretty limited, but they were not the only refrigerator cars out there--so even if you are operating after the day of billboard cars, you might see reefers in other color schemes and colors than the orange/yellow PFE cars.

[ProtoWeathering]

Ok, I apologize for being what my wife lovingly calls me, a ***.

Now here is some historical information, both from the same site that will provide approximate historical dates when certain rules or changes took place in the Railroad industry.

I've printed this out and use it for reference when building cars for eBay

http://www.hosam.com/grd/dates.html

Your local public library has a huge repository of RR information too.

Again, I apologize.

Jerry

http://www.hosam.com/frcontent.html

[egmurphy]

You might want to check out the Yahoo Group "Citrus Modeling". While it concentrates on the citrus industry in Southern California it has a wealth of information on reefers and reefer operations (fruit, not meat). Check out the back messages, plus their 'links', 'photos', and 'files' sections for more good info.

Here's the address:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/citrusmodeling/


Regards

Ed

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tracklayer

Okay guys. Now let me ask you this. Does it make any difference if you run reefer cars (and/or box cars) with the older type upright brake wheel with those that have the more modern flush fitting brake wheel ?.

Tracklayer

None at all, at least through the mid-1950s. Cars with vertical brake staffs (in general, a sign that the car had K brakes) were quite common through WWII and didn't get scarce until 1952-1956 or so. Cars with more modern side-mount brake wheels (in GENERAL, a sign that the car had AB brakes) started showing up around 1925 or so, and didn't show up on 50% of the car fleet until right around WWII. There were exceptions to the V=K, S=AB rule. Many railroads, when they decided to rebuild a car, left the vertical staffs on cars with new AB brake systems (the NYC did this a lot, as did PFE and many eastern roads). Vertical brake staffs ARE a sign that the car is older, but not necessarily decrepit.

Oh, and no one really answered your trussrod question directly: truss rods are GENERALLY a sign that a car has an all-wood underframe. Some cars that were built during the transition from wood to steel underframes had a combo, where the car had a steel center sill, but wood on the sides that required between 2 to 4 trussrods. When the ICC banned all-wood underframe cars from interchange (which generally kills the car class), most trussrod cars left the rails. The few cars that still did have trussrods were the ones witht he steel sill. Thes cars were most commonly reefers and granger road 40-foot boxcars (CB&Q & Milwaukee, as well as lots of small eastern roads). These cars generally left the rails by 1955 or so, with a very few CB&Q boxes and St Louis Car Co beer reefers lasting into the early 1960s.

Thank you orsonroy. I'm "very grateful" to you and the other members for the information that you've given here.

Tracklayer

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tracklayer

Okay guys. Now let me ask you this. Does it make any difference if you run reefer cars (and/or box cars) with the older type upright brake wheel with those that have the more modern flush fitting brake wheel ?.

Tracklayer

None at all, at least through the mid-1950s. Cars with vertical brake staffs (in general, a sign that the car had K brakes) were quite common through WWII and didn't get scarce until 1952-1956 or so. Cars with more modern side-mount brake wheels (in GENERAL, a sign that the car had AB brakes) started showing up around 1925 or so, and didn't show up on 50% of the car fleet until right around WWII. There were exceptions to the V=K, S=AB rule. Many railroads, when they decided to rebuild a car, left the vertical staffs on cars with new AB brake systems (the NYC did this a lot, as did PFE and many eastern roads). Vertical brake staffs ARE a sign that the car is older, but not necessarily decrepit.

Oh, and no one really answered your trussrod question directly: truss rods are GENERALLY a sign that a car has an all-wood underframe. Some cars that were built during the transition from wood to steel underframes had a combo, where the car had a steel center sill, but wood on the sides that required between 2 to 4 trussrods. When the ICC banned all-wood underframe cars from interchange (which generally kills the car class), most trussrod cars left the rails. The few cars that still did have trussrods were the ones witht he steel sill. Thes cars were most commonly reefers and granger road 40-foot boxcars (CB&Q & Milwaukee, as well as lots of small eastern roads). These cars generally left the rails by 1955 or so, with a very few CB&Q boxes and St Louis Car Co beer reefers lasting into the early 1960s.

[Pruitt]

Reefers leave me cold! [(-D]

OK, bad pun.

Actually, I'll have a pretty good icing operation in my main yard in Casper, WY. I have the Tichy icing rack kit (not yet built) - I'll need at least one more.

[Tracklayer]

Okay guys. Now let me ask you this. Does it make any difference if you run reefer cars (and/or box cars) with the older type upright brake wheel with those that have the more modern flush fitting brake wheel ?.

Tracklayer

[dehusman]

Reefers weren't that generic. A big difference was if they were designed to haul meat or produce. Meat reefers tended to be smaller and owned by the meat packers. Produce reefers were owned by railroads or railroad owned subsidiaries (PFE, ART, MDT, SFRD, NWX, etc.). A shipper on a line would tend to use one type of reefer since they had different dimensions (a SFRD car and PFE car had different width doors and interiors) and shippers would size their packaging to fit in those cars. If a shipper who normally used PFE were to get a SFRD car, the interior would either be too big or too small for his normal loading pattern.
In the late 40's early 50's the mechanical reefer really became practical and doomed the ice cooler reefer. They also made the shipment of frozen foods more practical.
In the 70's the reefer business grandually dwindled until the 1990's when there was a renewed effort by the railroads to attract new refrigerated business. That's when the old reefers were rebuilt with new refrigeration units, and the cryogenic cars were introduced.
The Miller cars were probably RBL's (insulated boxcars) and were leased by Miller. One brewer had some mechanical reefers leased and put large tanks inside of the cars to ship beer concentrate to a bottling plant.

Dave H.

[wd45]

I know that the billboard reefers were banned in the 1930's, however, I recently saw a picture that showed a couple of refridgerator cars lettered for Miller Beer. The pic has to be from the 70's (early?) because there were also Penn Central and B&O box cars, as well. Would these have been leased or owned by Miller?

[West Coast S]

Tracklayer i'll do my best to provide some history. The idea of the shipping produce and not suffer loss in transit goes back to the beginning days of railroading. The concept seems so simple now, but it took a New York produce broker who leased two boxcars, both were loaded with California strawberries. Prior to departure, ice was packed among the produce in one car and the other left un-iced. At various points the ice was renewed. Upon arrival in New York the shipment not kept iced was a total loss, whereas the iced shipment was 80% salvageable.

Soon after the bunker was added to the basic box car body and the introduction of plug doors to seal out any foreign matter. The reefer was born. In those early days, each was custom built for a specific customer, resulting in some unsual designs up to fifity feet in length and and short as twenty feet, weather they had need for one or not! I've got photos of a reefer from the turn on the century built for a lumber yard! The science of commercial and residential refrigeration concided with reefer developement, thus one of the largest fleets was owned by Armour Packing. The trend in railroad ownership had yet to occure, Pacific Fruit Express would set the stage in 1906, Western Fruit Express was founded to counter the PFE threat.

They were some of the most unique examples of rolling stock to ever grace the rails.

PFE and Armour dominated the market until the early 60s, mechanical refrigeration eliminated the need for ice docks and ponds, they however could not prevent the loss of shipments to trucks as railroads became indifferent to the industries needs.


Dave

[Anonymous]

Tracklayer,

In answer to your second question about truss rods etc. You will find that cars from around 1900 to 1935 or so change pretty dramatically as the railroads retire cars with truss rods, certain trucks, certain brake systems, start using more steel and shift to larger cars. Most of this was done because of safety and reliability issues. There are big differences in how trains look, say in 1917 and how they look in 1940 because of these issues. You will notice that many of the billboard reefers are 36' or shorter cars reflecting the smaller sizes prevalent in the early days. For a good look at early stuff check out the Westerfield site and look at the eras of the different cars....I'm sure some one else can come up with a better reference for you....

Here is the link: http://www.westerfield.biz

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by West Coast S

I have to comment that the sarcasm expressed by Neutrino is unwarrented.

Dave

Thank you West Coast S (Dave). I don't understand why he would act like that toward me either. Maybe he's having a bad day where nothing's going right and he's looking to take it out on someone (?).

As for the reefer cars. They're kind of new to me and I don't know much about them or thier history. I was hoping someone could tell me a little more about them.

Again, thanks.

Tracklayer

[West Coast S]

I have to comment that the sarcasm expressed by Neutrino is unwarrented. With that being stated, shippers were restricted as to the size of lettering and heralds. I can't recall the specific allowable as I type this but , I believe heralds could not exceed two square feet per. There were hundreds if not thousands of examples of compliant lettering and herald placement for the post ICC edict reefers., far too numerous to list on a forum. I would focus on one particular group for the era that interest you.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Tracklayer,

Most reefers after the Billboard era were owned by consortiums of railroads and shippers. The Most famous was PFE or Pacific Fruit Express. These cars were leased to whomever needed them at the moment and were seen all over the US. They were usually bright orange with the PFE markings.. Heres a pic of some models of them on my layout:

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Neutrino

Tracklayer... What would you guess they looked like?

I think people are ignoring your question because it's so obvious what they looked like...

I'm really trying to hold back the sarcasm here, somebody help!

No Neutrino, it's not obvious. Maybe you can tell me what I'd really like to know, starting with why reefers with truss rods were banned, and what the colors and markings of reefers appeared like after the ban. I ask you because it seem that you know so much about them...

Tracklayer

[ProtoWeathering]

Tracklayer... What would you guess they looked like?

I think people are ignoring your question because it's so obvious what they looked like...

I'm really trying to hold back the sarcasm here, somebody help!

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Trainnut1250

A book to check out is the hallowed PFE book (author escapes me now, some one else will chime in).

Perhaps you are refering to Pacific Fruit Express by Anthony Thompson, Robert Church, and Bruce Jones.

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

If I was a shipper in Baltimore with a load of Seagrams Whiskey (Spelling?) and had billboard reefers with my logo on it... I want Seagrams Reefers hauling my whiskey.

The ban probably happened when I had to load MY whiskey into cars lettered and advertising MY competition. It is probably a ICC matter after complaints back then.

This scenario probably did not exist in real life but it is the best way I can explain my idea why they banned the billboard reefers. Too much product being hauled in comptetion;s cars.

That's the exact reason, companies were tired of railroads just loading anyones stuff into their cars , Filed suits with the railroads and the feds stepped in and just banned Billboard cars all together. It usually wasn't competition, but image a beer car loaded with Dog food and the reaction the Beer company would have.

Usually what happened was a business would request an extra car and the Yard wouldn't have one of theirs in there, so the railroad would just grab what was there, not caring what it said on it. Since Companies paid good money for those cars to be used for their service, you can see how that would upset them. The railroads welcomed the banning of Billboard cars, as that allowed them to pool and use cars as needed, without the restrictions of what company could use them.

Okay. So after the billboard reefers were banned, reefer cars became generic ?. What I'm asking is, did they just become plain yellow with basic road numbers and so forth ?.

Tracklayer

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

If I was a shipper in Baltimore with a load of Seagrams Whiskey (Spelling?) and had billboard reefers with my logo on it... I want Seagrams Reefers hauling my whiskey.

The ban probably happened when I had to load MY whiskey into cars lettered and advertising MY competition. It is probably a ICC matter after complaints back then.

This scenario probably did not exist in real life but it is the best way I can explain my idea why they banned the billboard reefers. Too much product being hauled in comptetion;s cars.

That's the exact reason, companies were tired of railroads just loading anyones stuff into their cars , Filed suits with the railroads and the feds stepped in and just banned Billboard cars all together. It usually wasn't competition, but image a beer car loaded with Dog food and the reaction the Beer company would have.

Usually what happened was a business would request an extra car and the Yard wouldn't have one of theirs in there, so the railroad would just grab what was there, not caring what it said on it. Since Companies paid good money for those cars to be used for their service, you can see how that would upset them. The railroads welcomed the banning of Billboard cars, as that allowed them to pool and use cars as needed, without the restrictions of what company could use them.

[Anonymous]

If I was a shipper in Baltimore with a load of Seagrams Whiskey (Spelling?) and had billboard reefers with my logo on it... I want Seagrams Reefers hauling my whiskey.

The ban probably happened when I had to load MY whiskey into cars lettered and advertising MY competition. It is probably a ICC matter after complaints back then.

This scenario probably did not exist in real life but it is the best way I can explain my idea why they banned the billboard reefers. Too much product being hauled in comptetion;s cars.

[Mark300]

Reefer trains......the first real unit trains!

Add the billboards, color (plus all of that food they carry) and this is the best kind of unit train.

Happy Railroading,

Mark

[twhite]

Billboard reefers are VERY cool--I have some beer reefers that I run behind one of my little 4-6-0's as a weekly 'supply' train for several small towns along my mainline (those miners and loggers can get THIRSTY!).
While we're at it, another little project you can do with your reefers is use some of them for ICE SERVICE ONLY. PFE did this on both the SP and WP lines in the 'thirties and 'forties to supply ice to reefers in places where there either wasn't room for an icing dock facility, or it was so seasonal that it wasn't economically feasable to have a complete icing facility. The cars were full of ice only, and then the ice was transferred to the bunkers of the produce reefers. Kind of a neat operation in itself.
Tom [:D]

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Trainnut1250

They are cool. I personally love Ice reefers of all stripes Check out branchline trains, they make a whole series of them. Also look at the decals from Cloverhouse models, he has all kinds of decals for pretty cool billboard reefers as well as other stuff. You can buy undecorated reefers or data only from Accurail and put these decals on them. A book to check out is the hallowed PFE book (author escapes me now, some one else will chime in). For high detail its Branchline, Intermountain and Red Caboose models. Do at least look at a finished kit from one of these manufacturers. When I got "reefer MAdness", I went out and bought every blue box I could find, after seeing Intermountain kits, I sold all the Athearn on Ebay and bought more detailed stuff...I also tried superdetailing the Athearn, too much work for not enough return on my modeling time.

While we are on the subject, you will need the other really cool thing to go along with your reefers: The icing platform. These are another neat thing about reefer service. Walthers makes a fairly good one, the Tichy one is a little better. For a neat detail you can use the miniatronics n scale reflector lights (regular outside lights) on em' and they look real cool and are in scale. The platforms look great all lit with these at night. There are also mini chuncks of ice etc.....

One note about Billboard reefers that might matter to you, They were banned or other wise regulated out of existence somewhere in the mid-1930s. If you care about protoypical correctness, and your railroad era is set later, say in the 50's, you wouldn't see these babies in service. Now before I come off like the historical correctness police, let me say that I don't care what you run on your railroad, just thought you should know this so that when one of "those guys" comes over and points it out, you can have an answer....Or if you are trying to be protoypical, you can be accurate....

I think I probably have foamed enough for now.....

Why were bill board reefers banned ?, and what did reefers appear like after that ?...

Thanks in advance.

Tracklayer

[Anonymous]

Just hide the transition diesels and tell the proto type police it is 1928!
Enjoy, Chief Justice Roberts will over turn the precedent and save us all!
Will

[Anonymous]

They are cool. I personally love Ice reefers of all stripes Check out branchline trains, they make a whole series of them. Also look at the decals from Cloverhouse models, he has all kinds of decals for pretty cool billboard reefers as well as other stuff. You can buy undecorated reefers or data only from Accurail and put these decals on them. A book to check out is the hallowed PFE book (author escapes me now, some one else will chime in). For high detail its Branchline, Intermountain and Red Caboose models. Do at least look at a finished kit from one of these manufacturers. When I got "reefer MAdness", I went out and bought every blue box I could find, after seeing Intermountain kits, I sold all the Athearn on Ebay and bought more detailed stuff...I also tried superdetailing the Athearn, too much work for not enough return on my modeling time.

While we are on the subject, you will need the other really cool thing to go along with your reefers: The icing platform. These are another neat thing about reefer service. Walthers makes a fairly good one, the Tichy one is a little better. For a neat detail you can use the miniatronics n scale reflector lights (regular outside lights) on em' and they look real cool and are in scale. The platforms look great all lit with these at night. There are also mini chuncks of ice etc.....

One note about Billboard reefers that might matter to you, They were banned or other wise regulated out of existence somewhere in the mid-1930s. If you care about protoypical correctness, and your railroad era is set later, say in the 50's, you wouldn't see these babies in service. Now before I come off like the historical correctness police, let me say that I don't care what you run on your railroad, just thought you should know this so that when one of "those guys" comes over and points it out, you can have an answer....Or if you are trying to be protoypical, you can be accurate....

I think I probably have foamed enough for now.....

[Tracklayer]

I came across a book the other day at a train shop that was filled with old colored and black and white pictures of bill board ice reefers. Man, I never realized that there was such a variety of paint schemes... I had always thought they were mostly yellow or orange, but there were green ones, red ones, blue ones, etc, etc, etc. They advertised everything from dog food to candy to cigars. Some had really cool looking and colorful paint jobs. I own a few of these cars, and since seeing the book, have developed a fever for them and believe I'll add a few more to my collection... Like I said, the book was filled with pictures, but didn't give much history about them. Can anyone out there tell me more about them, like when they originated and their evolution ?.

Thanks in advance.

Tracklayer [:D]