What's wrong with this picture.

[rolleiman]

I was once a (used) brass junkie.. Spent $1000s on models that sat in boxes.. Gotta get to those someday (among the million other projects) I would say.. Brass steam is very picky about what it runs on, curves, quality of track, etc.. Show me quality detailed plastic models of Wabash 484 O-1 and 482 M-1 and my Hallmarks will be on ebay. The only reason for buying brass these days is one that's been stated many times... to get a specific model..

Anyone who wants to play with it though and has a little mechanical ability can learn to tune them. I do agree that brass is much more durable and considering the nutty limited run market of the plastics, Can be a reasonable purchase.. if you want to spend the time tinkering with them. Personally, I wouldn't buy brass as an investment. These days, I'd rather work on the layout rather than spending my time in the shop..

There's nothing wrong with the picture, it's just a changing market.. Today it's about instant gratification.. Even brand new out of the box, brass steam always required some tinkering to get it running right.. Not many people are going to want to spend time tearing down a $1000 locomotive when the $150 loco will run circles around it right out of the box, with sound to boot. Although it's actually quite simple (usually 3 screws and the superstructure comes right off) a lot of them wouldn't know where to begin. I make that point because keep in mind with "used" brass, a lot of it has never been run.

I could say a lot more but most of it has already been said.

Jeff
[8D]

[bwftex]

I've noticed that some brass is going for a good bit less too. Mostly it’s the older stuff with open frame motors and models that may not be as detailed as new items in both plastic and brass. The newer brass stuff with can motors, better detail and back head detail that was not possible with some models with open frames seems to be holding on to price fairly well. Before the new plastic steam and the beautifully detailed plastic diesels if you wanted models that not only looked good but also ran dependably you went with brass.

Most of the brass from around 1980 or so for the most part runs very well. You still have to paint them and that can be a challenge but brass is easy to clean off to give it another try if you goof up. I've found that brass is generally easier to take apart and work on the newer plastic models. At least for steam models. I have yet to break something off a brass model that could not be easily and solidly fixed. I have nine of the new HO plastic or die cast steam models and several new plastic diesels. For the price they are all outstanding and run very well. But the few brass models I still have run just as well and look better. Brass is much more durable and often more detailed. The new plastic is great but as far as steam goes they haven even scratched the surface in producing the range of prototypes that have been offered in brass and probably never will. .

If I had the money I’d have nothing but brass except for the few models where the plastic version really is superior. Still I’m looking forward to the upcoming HOn3 K-27 from Blackstone Models and hoping someone will make some of the more common type light or medium sized 2-8-0s in plastic / die cast HO.

Bruce

[JohnT14808]

Like other modelers, I would love to have a brass engine in my engine house, but I am one of those who models on a budget, so brass is out for now. Perhaps later.......
(Note to self...... pay more attention to eBay...maybe you'll find somtehing you like!!)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
On the otherhand, orsonroy's second comment is spot-on. There are oh so very few hobbyists remaining that can tear down a brass engine, tinker its mechanism into perfect shape, give it an excellent paint job, and returning it perfect to layout service.
CNJ831

Then I am glad to report that I am one of the few that still can. I have a few local freinds in the area who I do custom painting for, mostly on their brass engines for the very reasons stated. The only reason I learned how is I needed the same stuff done to my stuff. (But all mine is plastic) and no one was going to do it for me. So I started tinkering, learned how things worked, and am generally crazy eneugh to take a leap of faith off the deep end most times.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark300
I think what our thread starter James is seeing on ebay, is a market shift in the value relative to the desirability and availability of some neat old brass models desperate for upgrading to DCC, sound and so forth. Add that stuff to the purchase price and try reselling the item AND then see how the value changes. It bears constant watching.

I have seen brass diesels redicououlsly cheap. SD45s for $30.00 GP-9s for $20.00 and have strongly considered buy them. I think this is becasue the current batch of diesels makes the brass ones now ownly a noviltie item. But Picking them up is something to consider, especially since the road that I model, GN, had both models alas I was told they do not run very good and I would probably have to invest $50.00 into each one to get them to run halfway satisfactorily. Given Im just trying to get a layout running. I will wait till I am bored and the shop forces need something to do. However I might pick up one of those Tenshodo S-1 4-8-4s I have been seeing around the $150 range. My birthday is comming. (9-18)

James.

[Mark300]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

The modern plastic steamers have killed a lot of the old brass market.

Keep in mind also that the pool of modelers who knows how to work on old steam models is shrinking rapidly. To get most old brass to run as well as modern plastic requires a LOT of work, and why bother when you can get plastic for the codst of the motor and gearbox?

I tend to take rather the opposite view on orsonroy's first statement. It is the astronomical pricing in the brass market that essentially brought it to an end, and along with it the re-sale value of older models. There simply are very, very few active brass collectors left relative to 10, 15, or 20 years ago. Those few that are still around are only interested in the latest editions, so older stuff goes wanting.

On the otherhand, orsonroy's second comment is spot-on. There are oh so very few hobbyists remaining that can tear down a brass engine, tinker its mechanism into perfect shape, give it an excellent paint job, and returning it perfect to layout service. Today's hobbyist would rather buy it finished, RTR, and expecting it to operate like a Swiss watch right out of the box. To such, the ideal of purchasing an older brass locomotive, with all its potential warts, is out of the question. But I will say, it having been my personal experience, that I've yet to see a plastic steamer that begins to approach my better brass examples in the level of actual detail.

CNJ831

I too am in agreement with the above posts.

Brass is to model railroading costs what Oil is to energy costs.

The prevailing wisdom still is; if you can find an item massed produced in styrene/metal then, brass does not make sense. Exception; limited runs like Precisionmodels’ Reading T-1. If they make no more runs, than the value of a brass T-1 and its ‘mass-produced’ counterpart is not going to change. This is simple manipulation of Supply & Demand and is basic to all such markets. I’ll be curious to see how that turns out.

I have noticed that within the 3 categories for owning brass (#1 being for Collecting for display, #2 being for Investments - like a stamp or coin collection and #3 - Working Models/Engines), there has been a dramatic shift in the last decade towards #3 - Working Engines. This is the affect of the wider variety of new mass produced plastic/metal engines (& rolling stock) being offered and jives with conventional wisdom stated above.

Folks just want to run trains! [:D]

BLI’s recent intro of a fully decorated GN Northern @ $1,400+ shocked a lot of folks. But…..what is the real value if you can obtain this locomotive in brass? About $500 (undec) to VOILA…$1,500 if you pay someone to attach lights, couplers, DCC, paint to a certain period, add sound and make sure that baby runs and pulls like a jewel.

Therefore, brass is and will remain as a commodity item in its own market and should be viewed as such. Some LHS’s will not deal in brass anymore, the good ones do OR can refer you to a shop or reputable vendor.

The question for some of us remains; is it easier to attempt a kit-bash on a similar type of locomotive to get us to our desired prototype (which is VERY similar) that will involve many hours of trial and error, constant fiddling, too much time, possible failure, and so forth? OR alternately, spend $300 to $500 more and buy the model you want in brass to get us back to running & operating? To many of us in RR modeling this kind of investment is a valid trade-off. After all, folks do this with styrene diesel bodies all of the time.

I highly recommend Andy Sperandeo’s article in the 10/05 Model Railroader as well as Howard Zane’s articles on brass at –
http://www.brasstrains.com/AboutBrass.asp

I think what our thread starter James is seeing on ebay, is a market shift in the value relative to the desirability and availability of some neat old brass models desperate for upgrading to DCC, sound and so forth. Add that stuff to the purchase price and try reselling the item AND then see how the value changes. It bears constant watching.

My [2c], and this a very good thread.

Happy Railroading,

Mark

[cheese3]

I would like some brass, so maybe one of these older engines is a good place to start. I have no problem doing motor work on anything so that wouln't be a problem.

[Anonymous]

In addition to what has been said in this thread already, I would add that to me now the only reason to buy brass is to get a prototype not yet done in plastic. You will notice the prices of SP brass are still where they were several years ago because no plastic models exist yet....I would also add that most high end brass (read still very expensive) is more finely detailed than most of the plastic even on exactly the same loco and class. What you are seeing for cheap are the older, in may cases less detalied models for sale. Andy Sperandeo has a good article explaining some of the ins and outs of brass a bit in the new MR.

As for running, I have an old Westside Pacific that still needs work to run, I have a climax A that needs regearing. For the amount I spent on those two, I could have bought 7or 8 Spectrum 2-8-0s that run pretty much flawlessly. Buuuuut no one makes these models in plastic ......yet.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

The modern plastic steamers have killed a lot of the old brass market.

Keep in mind also that the pool of modelers who knows how to work on old steam models is shrinking rapidly. To get most old brass to run as well as modern plastic requires a LOT of work, and why bother when you can get plastic for the codst of the motor and gearbox?

I tend to take rather the opposite view on orsonroy's first statement. It is the astronomical pricing in the brass market that essentially brought it to an end, and along with it the re-sale value of older models. There simply are very, very few active brass collectors left relative to 10, 15, or 20 years ago. Those few that are still around are only interested in the latest editions, so older stuff goes wanting.

On the otherhand, orsonroy's second comment is spot-on. There are oh so very few hobbyists remaining that can tear down a brass engine, tinker its mechanism into perfect shape, give it an excellent paint job, and returning it perfect to layout service. Today's hobbyist would rather buy it finished, RTR, and expecting it to operate like a Swiss watch right out of the box. To such, the ideal of purchasing an older brass locomotive, with all its potential warts, is out of the question. But I will say, it having been my personal experience, that I've yet to see a plastic steamer that begins to approach my better brass examples in the level of actual detail.

CNJ831

[Berk-fan284]

I have noticed (and bought)this happening to a certain extent with some of the older brass articulated locomotives also and some of these locos don't have modern plastic versions out for them. Akane brass Yellowstones can be had in the $300-$600 range (I know that is still pretty pricey but there seems to be more of them appearing in the lower price bracket too), Key Import Big Boys in the $600 range, Akane or Oriental Powerhouse line 2-8-8-2 or 2-6-6-2 Mallets, you get the idea. The articulateds might require a bit more work than a Northern or Mikado to fix up but when they are tuned up they can be pretty comparable to thier modern counterparts for performance.

[orsonroy]

The modern plastic steamers have killed a lot of the old brass market. I've been amassing a fleet of Oriental Powerhouse Mikes for around $150 each. Most modelers prefer the newer offerings of the same engine by BLI, Trix and even Athearn. Same goes for the USRA 0-8-0s: with Life Like's beautiful engine, there's no reason to buy a brass version, and you can find them on Ebay for as little as $100.

Keep in mind also that the pool of modelers who knows how to work on old steam models is shrinking rapidly. To get most old brass to run as well as modern plastic requires a LOT of work, and why bother when you can get plastic for the codst of the motor and gearbox?

[csmith9474]

I think your statement about "some of the latest releases of the same engine in plastic" sums it up. A lot of the newer steamers in plastic look a lot better than older brass and have a heck of a lot better drive mechanisms. They also have all the bells and whistles, literally. Some of the older brass requires a lot of work just to get running smoothly.

[Anonymous]

I have been looking on Ebay alot lately. I have started noticing something kind of odd. Lately I have been able to find brass locomotives of fairly substantial size (I.E. 4-8-4s 2-8-4s 2-8-2s ect) in the 150-200 dollar range. Granted these are older locomotives, but these brass engines are cheapers often than some of the latest releases of the same engines in plastic. Whats wrong with this picture.

Were I not so budget handicapped that I have to sort of be a bottom scum feeder of model train equipment. I would buy some of this stuff.

James.