How to identify old trains

[Rotorranch]

WOW!!!

Neat stuff! As mentioned earlier, I wouldn't run off to ePay with that stuff. Even if it turns out not to run, ( and if it's been in storage in a fairly climate controlled area, it probably will ) that has got to be a pretty cool keepsake! ( When I replied to your newbie post, I had no idea what you actually had! )

Keep us informed as to whether or not the stuff runs!

Rotor

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the info and that website is great. I will post a few more pics tonight. I have an old mantua loco & tender , a pittman bride & groom, and some silver athearn passenger cars from the 50s or 60s I think. I love to hear what you guys have to say about them.

I appreciate all the help, I am trying to gain some basic knowledge before heading to hobby shop.

By the way, does anyone know a good helpful, knowledgable train shop in northern NJ?

Thanks
BSD

[areibel]

Looks like you have quite a nice collection to start with, BSD!!
That Hiawatha is a beauty, but personally I prefer the Bowser! The drivers are original, Spoked drivers didn't come until their next loco, the K11 Pacific (which also came with a zamac boiler instead of brass). The tender is different, maybe a Varney?
For a little more history on the Mountain, check this out-
http://www.railstop.com/History/Bowser/BowserHistory.asp

[Anonymous]

The one piece of information not given yet is that these are HO scale, which means that with your track and an appropriate power supply could be operational. The engines are a legacy type of item that I would not run off to E-Bay and raffle off if I had a 20 month old son. Rather visit a local hobby shop and ask if they can help you check them out to see if they run, if they need lubrication etc.. With some space and your track, you and your offspring could enjoy his great grand fathers legacy. After all your son is very wise in this early demonstration of love for trains. Enjoy, ask questions, questions, questions, and if they offer you $20.00 for the Hiawatha laugh .
Good luck in your new adventure.
Will

[Anonymous]

Wow, I never thought they were worth anything. They sat in a closet for over 35+ years. When I was younger, I figured since they weren't Lionel they probably werent worth much.

I have a few more, nothing as nice as the first two, but I'll post some pics tonight.

Thanks alot for helping me identify the trains.

BSD

[Darth Santa Fe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BSDtrain

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WWWWWOOOOOOWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is one of the VERY, VERY, VERY RARE Rivarossi Hiawathas!! If you put that on eBay, you could get as much as $500 for the engine alone!! But the whole set...that may be worth close to $1,000!!!!!(but I'm not quite sure) Don't let ANYTHING happen to it!!!!

QUOTE:

That is Bowser's very first steam engine, the brass 4-8-2 Mountain with the boiler and modified drive from Knapp. That one is also valueable, but not NEARLY as valueable as the Hiawatha.

[CNJ831]

Well, BSD, there's no question that your first loco (and associated passenger cars) is the original Rivarossi Hiawatha...a very rare item. And in excellent condition, complete with two passenger cars, is almost unheard of today. It was imported by Polk Hobbies of NYC circa 1950-54. I believe it may have been the first loco by Rivarossi to enter the States. There are plenty of oldtimers who'd love to have THAT train on their layout!

The second engine appears to be either a Knapp heavy 4-8-2 (circa 1938-45), or Bowser's somewhat later example of same after they bought out Knapp. Check the metal showing through the paint...the Knapp was cast bronze (or brass), the Bowser I believe was zamac. The thing that troubles me about the model are the boxpox drivers, which I think may be replacements. I also note that the valve gear is missing and the tender is not the standard one for that engine (looks like a Varney). Check the tender frame for markings..

Interesting early items!

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

BSD, that locomotive in the Varney box definately isn't an F-3 diesel. That is a 4-8-2 Mountain type locomotive. I can't tell you much more about it, except that it doesn't match what the box says.

[Anonymous]

cnj831, Thanks for the info and advice. Here are some quick pics of a couple that i found in my basement. Please let me know if you need better pics.







The yellow varney box says F-3 diesel no. 1955d Dummy "A" unit, but I am pretty sure that the train doesn't match the box.

Thanks in advance.

BSD

[CNJ831]

BSD - Take a moment and step back from any immediate ideas of fooling with these old trains!

First off, if your locomotive actually is a 1950's Rivarossi Milwaukee Road Hiawatha, it is one of the very few rare, truly valuable plastic HO locomotives there is! Not a great many were imported and it seems their shells were largely defective and cracked. A perfect example today is considered very desirable to a collector. Don't mess with it! The locomotive's availability was very limited and it was expensive at the time, so it is not surprising you failed to find reference to it or images on-line.

As to the Mantua, Varney, and Athearn cars, they are likely to be more common items and likely to be of play value than to be worth much actual money. Unfortunately, there are no published inclusive reference manuals outside of for Varney and Athearn (now I believe O-O-P). Likewise, I wouldn't expect the average hobbyshop owner to be of much assistance unless he's an old geezer. The period of the Rivarossi Hiawatha was around the transition era from paper-sided and metal cars to the advent of plastic ones. Few folks have much memory of that time anymore.

If you can upload images of the items, I'm sure some guys here, including myself, could offer IDs for much of your stuff. And before I'd put any juice to the Hiawatha, I'd have a reputable service guy clean and test it. There your local hobbyshop guy could surely point you in the right direction.

CNJ831
(NMRA HO History & Collecting SIG)

[Anonymous]

areibel ,

Thanks for the great info, I can post pictures later tonight.

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the quick replies. I plan on visiting a local train shop soon. I am just trying to read up while at work. Most of the trains are not in great condition. The risarossi hiawatha , though, seems to be in nice condition and has two long passenger cars. I also have tons of track, hope I can still use it w a new train.

Thanks

[areibel]

If you take a close look at them and give a little better description, we can probably help you. First, the Locomotives- If they're steamers, are the boilers plastic or metal? Same with the tenders, but some 50's locos had plastic tenders with cast metal boilers. Then look at the wheel arangement- Is it an 0-4-0 (no small pilot wheels, 4 driving wheels total and no trailing wheels), a 2-8-2 (two small pilot wheels total, 8 drivers ands two trailing) etc... If Diesels, again plastic or metal shells, cast metal side frames or plastic, etc... Even the road name might help, if it has one. And if you happen to see some
locos with brass shells, they're cheap imitations of absolutely no value, please send them to me to dispose of them- YEAH, RIGHT!
On the cars, are they plastic, metal or wood/ cardboard construction? Are the trucks and wheels metal or plastic? Are the couplers mounted to the trucks or to the body?
If there's a name on the box, does it match what's inside? Even the colors of the boxes might help.
And if they are from the 50's, they probably ARE worth something. I's find out for sure. Nothing against your son, but these might not be the perfect starters for him! A later blue box Athern loco with a bunch of Tyco/ Roundhouse/ whatever cars will be pretty durable, these might have some collector value. If nothing else, if you can send me some pictures I can help you out.

[csmith9474]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Just based on your brief description, the only brand that might be worth something today is the Varney, especially if it is an unassembled, complete kit.

The names Rivarossi, Athearn, Mantua, and Tyco indicate cheaper products that have probably not survived in operating condition. The biggest problem with them is going to be rusty motors and rusty or pitted wheels on the locomotives.

I think you have Athearn in the wrong list, pal.

[Leon Silverman]

A lot of these old manufacturers printed their brand name on the bottom of the cars. Consequently, if you found a Varney car in a Varney box, it is likely to be in it's original carton. Absent of any identifying marks, the Tyco and Mantua cars are likely to be equipped with talgo trucks (where the coupler boxes are attached to and swing with the trucks). If your grandfather actually did have a working layout, he probably converted these trains to X2F or Kadee couplers since the manufacturers had individual style couplers that were not compatible.
Considering you want to get these trains to run for your son, take them to your LHS (local hobby shop) and have him recommend the proper replacement trucks and couplers. The trucks available back them had sharp (pre RP25 contour) flanges that would pick and derail at any misaligned railjoint and had poor rolling characteristics.

[cacole]

Just based on your brief description, the only brand that might be worth something today is the Varney, especially if it is an unassembled, complete kit.

The names Rivarossi, Athearn, Mantua, and Tyco indicate cheaper products that have probably not survived in operating condition. The biggest problem with them is going to be rusty motors and rusty or pitted wheels on the locomotives.

[trainboyH16-44]

Your hobby store could be quite helpful, I'd give it a try. It could be a little hard for us to identify them wothout being there in person.
trainboy

[Anonymous]

Hi, Total newbie to trains here. Due to my 20month old son's facination with Thomas and now all trains in general, I have recently dug up my grandfather's old train sets. My mother has no idea the last time they worked or what kind of setup he had.

I am trying to identify what types of trains they are, but I am having a hard time identifying any of them. I dont think they are worth much, but would like to see if I could get them to work for my son (& for my own satisfaction)

So far I know 1 train is a Rivarossa Milwaukee Road Hiawatha from the 50's(I am guessing). But I cant find any pics online that match it. Is there a website or book that would help identify all of the trains from approx the 1950's. Some of the other boxes are Tyco,Athearn,varney Kit?,mantua. But I am not sure the trains are in the right boxes.

I'd like to have some info b4 I walk into a model train store and try to talk to someone.

Thanks for any help.
BSD