Prototype pictures of GN challenger

[twhite]

You're right, the Z-6 had a tractive effort of 104,500 pounds, and the Z-8 was around 107,000 pounds TE, which puts the Rio Grande L-105 in the middle with 105,400 TE. The UP only had 97,000TE. Still wish someone would come out with an affordable model of one of the Z's, however. I'd like to see a photo of your Bowser conversion when you're finished.
Tom [:D]

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite
But gloriosky, those GN/NP/SP&S Challengers were handsome beasties, weren't they? I think except for the Baldwin built Rio Grande L-105's, they were the heaviest and most powerful 4-6-6-4's ever built. Next to them, the UP was a lightweight.

I think that distinction would belong to the NP's Z8.

[twhite]

If I'm not mistaken, the boiler on the Z6 extends further out than the boiler on the UP. Either that, or the front-hung pumps makes it look so, but I really think that the boiler front of the GN extended further out over the front deck and the front cylinders. And I also recall that the GN challenger had a Worthington FWH ahead of the smoke-stack. And the pump was on the boiler front right below the air pumps. But gloriosky, those GN/NP/SP&S Challengers were handsome beasties, weren't they? I think except for the Baldwin built Rio Grande L-105's, they were the heaviest and most powerful 4-6-6-4's ever built. Next to them, the UP was a lightweight.
Tom

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by randyaj
Guys I am having a hard time seeing the difference in the firebox between the bowser kit and the GN prototype. I see the bulge in front of the cab needs to be made consideralbly shorter, the corners of the cab have to be changed, and the air pump mounting location is wrong on the bowser, but the firebox does not look like the earlier mallets that GN made.

You are probably thinking about the difference between the Belpair Firebox (sort of square on the top), that the GN and Pennsy loved so much, and the others that were round on top. The Z6 was actually designed for NP so did not have a Belpair firebox.

The huge difference I was talking about is at the bottom. The Z6 was designed to use a much lower grade of coal (called Rosebud) and while the GN version burned oil, the firebox was still the NP size. As I recall a Z6 is about 160 square feet where a UP type is only 132 square feet. On the Z6 the firebox is hunkered down so low the rear driving wheel has the top part hidden by it. On a vertical line the cab is totally behind the trailing truck. This is very noticible with a perpendicular side shot of the locomotive. The photos that have the locomotive's perspective going from nose to rear hide this difference.

[randyaj]

Thanks for all the help. I am indeed grateful have made a consession on removing the cab have shortened the dome above the firebox, blanked out one window on each side, squared the front corners of the cab rounded the front cab windows and when ready, will mount the headlight and airpumps in the proper location. I am also responding, in part, because this is my 100th post!![yeah][swg][swg][swg]
Randy

[tjsmrinfo]

try this site out www.rr-fallenflags.org or www.railroadforums.com

hope this helps

tom

[randyaj]

Guys I am having a hard time seeing the difference in the firebox between the bowser kit and the GN prototype. I see the bulge in front of the cab needs to be made consideralbly shorter, the corners of the cab have to be changed, and the air pump mounting location is wrong on the bowser, but the firebox does not look like the earlier mallets that GN made see here http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?00016179+OP-16179
any help??
Randy

[randyaj]

Thanks guys, I know that it will be a challenge, but for what a brass challenger for GN goes for (if you can find one) this seemed a reasonable alternative. As far as the firebox goes that is the big deal isn't it? When I bought my first IHC engine painted for GN I was disappointed to find out that it did not have the correct firebox for Great Northern. So this will take a lot of time and work, but I have more time than money [(-D]
thanks for all of your replies, if you find others let me know
Randy

[Anonymous]

Here is a picture of a live steam NP challenger.
http://www.masonstrains.com/MTchallenger.htm

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by randyaj
I am ordering the sheets tomorrow, but will take 5 weeks to get here, anything more immediate?

A local Library. Of my collection the two books "Northern Pacific Supersteam Era 1925-1945" and "The Northern Pacific Railway of McGee and Nixon" have the most and best shots. Most GN books have only one or two pictures. I flipped through all three of my SP&S books expecting to find bunches of pictures (the SP&S loved the 4-6-6-4s) but I didn't find many.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by randyaj

I am building Great Northern challenger from a bowser kit. I am looking for photos of the prototype engines either numbered 4000 or 4001. Any help would be appreciated.

Let us know how that goes. I always thought the firebox was way to different from the Bowser to get it to look right, so I had never attempted it. That is also why Rivarossi, Lionel, and Athearn have never painted their UP type Challengers in that scheme.

QUOTE:
(too cheap to buy a whole book for a couple of pictures)

A railroad book is something I have never regretted buying. I only wish I could properly remember 10% of what I read.[:)]

[randyaj]

Thanks guys I am ordering the sheets tomorrow, but will take 5 weeks to get here, anything more immediate?
Randy

[DanRaitz]

Also they were only on the GN for 8 years. They were sold to the SP&S around 1950, becoming #903-904.

[GN-Rick]

The GN's two Z-6 Challengers were identical to NP's except that
they burned oil rather than lignite. The GNRHS has a reference
sheet available for purchase (at a very reasonable price). It is
# 262, from 6/98. Or also try NP or SP&S websites, you might
find photos of Z-6s there.

[randyaj]

I am building Great Northern challenger from a bowser kit. I am looking for photos of the prototype engines either numbered 4000 or 4001. Any help would be appreciated. (too cheap to buy a whole book for a couple of pictures)
thanks
Randy Johnson