RAILFANS PLEASE READ THIS

[icmr]

I know exactly what David is talking about. That is why I only go on railroad property when I am asked to do so. As I stated on the other thread on this topic, I want to work for NS, thats why I don't do stupid things around the tracks.




ICMR

Happy Railroading.[:)][:)]

[cefinkjr]

One of the very first things my boss told me when I hired out on the NYC almost 40 years ago was: "This company reserves the right to operate trains on any track in any direction --- without first informing you." This was followed by two weeks of intensive training on how to work safely around railroad equipment. Wonder how many times that training has saved my life.

Chuck

[TrainFreak409]

That was some very heavy reading. But well worth the time. It's good to hear what someone thinks from the other point of view. Thanks for that David Foster.

[davekelly]

Interesting thoughts here concerning rights. If I am understanding this corrctly there are very many folks upset that a railroader gets a little shakey when seeing someone to him/her is acting suspecious and calls the cops and then the cops check out the person. That person/railfans rights are being taken away it is argued.

How 'bout this. A house in your neighborhood has been robbed and the residents assaulted. Coming home this evening you notice a car parked on the street by your house. The next night you see the car again there, the occupant looks like he's taking notes or something. The next night he's there again, this time with a camera. He looks like he's casing your house. Would you be violating this guy's rights to be on a public roadway by calling the police and having him checked out? He hasn't broken any laws yet. He's on a public roadway remember. What if it turns out he's an archtitecture student doing field research on residential archtetcture styles and he's goes to his web group and posts how militant home owners have become and what a police state we live in. Then what if he is a criminal intent on doing bodily harm to you and yours? Seems to me no harm is done by having a police officer check out the scene.

Remember. The 9/11 hijackers looked like passengers as they boarded the planes.

Just a thought.

[Anonymous]

Do you two indicate you had rights to get on railroad property?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Shermanhill1

Booorrringgg[:(][xx(][V]

Stay on public property and don't act like a foamer and you will be ok.

I have to agree. This country runs on FEAR. The people would rather tuck their heads between their legs then fight for their rights. We have no rights anymore. Allan.

[Anonymous]

Booorrringgg[:(][xx(][V]

Stay on public property and don't act like a foamer and you will be ok.

[Anonymous]

If you want to get close get a zoom lenses.

[steveblackledge]

ON30Shay, well said

[Anonymous]

In the immortal words pf Forrest Gump......stupid is as stupid does.

[Anonymous]

I just had this mental picture of St Peter looking out of his gatehouse at a group of Railfans fighting...
One says "The Cop was a Brute"
Another says "The Railfan was a Klutz"
Another says "Their rights under the constitution are..."
Another "they could have been terrorists..."

What St Peter can't understand is why they've each got a stepped grove running through one part of their body or another.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dannydd

Yep, got it, point taken, but you have to die sometime[soapbox][}:)][}:)][}:)] It is an individual choice. die doing what you enjoy, if it aint worth dying for it aint worth living for(sarcasm) I know, I've had my share of stiffs, and shall continue to as long as their is a lack of "common scence.

I have a short answer and a long answer... the short one may be offensive...

Were the 9/11 hijackers exercising "individual choice"?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by skiloff

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

point well taken , thank you for giving us the other side .

however i still think the officer in question went beyond a reasonable response in arresting a passenger with a ticket on the platform who was talking to two amtrak employees while waiting for a third to come back with an escort . this wasn't some guy wandering along the tracks with his face glued to the viewfinder of his camera .

I would argue that you don't really know that is the case. All you have is the guy's word, no other witnesses. I think you shouldn't judge before you know all the facts.

I haven't read anything else, but, can't the police ask the train crew what he was doing?

[selector]

I am amazed at the sense of entitlement. And, I wince when people talk about human rights...it is such a carelessly used expression. We all have to live in this world, and if we are to do well by each other, then we need rules. Without knowing fully what really happened, how can we surmise which of the two actors is wrong?

[skiloff]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

point well taken , thank you for giving us the other side .

however i still think the officer in question went beyond a reasonable response in arresting a passenger with a ticket on the platform who was talking to two amtrak employees while waiting for a third to come back with an escort . this wasn't some guy wandering along the tracks with his face glued to the viewfinder of his camera .

I would argue that you don't really know that is the case. All you have is the guy's word, no other witnesses. I think you shouldn't judge before you know all the facts.

[Anonymous]

Right, if you need a pass or something that says you can be on public property, it isn't pupblic property. I this would requiree trespassing you have to talk to the railroad, Otto Perry used to get in to railyards. Rule 1 be safe.

"Here's an idea. Someone starts a national Railfan club and if you are a member you get a card that says you can legally be around the tracks, take pictures, and viedo tape the trains. That way you can be there and no problems."

[Train 284]

I agree, amen!

[steveblackledge]

Hello David,,,great stuff, spot on the mark.
i take the kids out to watch all the steam specials around the north west and i am amazed at the number of photographers who switch there brains off when they see somthing like Lizzie or Duchess coming on the west coast main line, here's an example,
around 25 platform enders on the south end of the up fast at leyland station awaiting 6233, and me and the kids on the up fast platform but at the north end, i position the kids right back away from the platform facing the track so they can see both ways, i notice an 87 racing south as 6233 races north, the point is none of the platform enders had a clue what was heading there way at 90 mph, they were standing on the platform edge complete with tripods and cameras, i shouted but they took no notice then the 87 driver sounded the horn four times, with luck and about 3 seconds to spare they jumped back just in time, they all missed the golden shot except me and the kids, i had the camcorder pointing south on the tripod about 8ft away from the track and when i watched the clip it was a very close call they had. Incidentally they were all complaning about the 87 and the horn blowing spoiling there shot. Idiots sums them up,
I am a H&S representative at Leyland Trucks

[ereimer]

point well taken , thank you for giving us the other side .

however i still think the officer in question went beyond a reasonable response in arresting a passenger with a ticket on the platform who was talking to two amtrak employees while waiting for a third to come back with an escort . this wasn't some guy wandering along the tracks with his face glued to the viewfinder of his camera .

[Philcal]

As a recently retired State Police Officer, and a railfan of many years, I really can't add too much to what's been so well said. Most, and I repeat most, railfans I have encountered, are intelligent, safety minded people. The "flip side" of that is the railfan, who in the back of his mind, equates the prototype train with his models. That is to say he stands way too close to the rails. Crosses the track(s) without looking, and generally poses a hazard to himself as well as train crews. Unfortuantely, many of us are judged by the actions of the relative few who cannot or will not obey the rules.

[Anonymous]

8500HPGASTURBINE

Thanks for the thanks... I know I'm going ballistic about this..

YOU GET HOW CLOSE?

Do you realise what a hanging load does to a human body?

Correct equipment includes "rip free" top layer... if anything, like a hanging chain, hooks you you want the layer to pull away... unless you want to go where the train is going for a mile or two...


Lightening up a little... I knew a man who got his leg broken by H0... he fell out of his loft after a long train session...

[Anonymous]

true, if you want to get that close to your train, go to your basement and touch all you like. Has anyone ever had their finger broken by a G scale going to close?[:P][:P][:P]

8500HPGasturbine, I like your train, just needs some good desert scenery!!![xx(][xx(][xx(][xx(]

[Anonymous]

Yep, got it, point taken, but you have to die sometime[soapbox][}:)][}:)][}:)] It is an individual choice. die doing what you enjoy, if it aint worth dying for it aint worth living for(sarcasm) I know, I've had my share of stiffs, and shall continue to as long as their is a lack of "common scence.

[Anonymous]

I've brought this over from the Amtrak police arrest a railfan thread (see that for the rest of the arguments) PLEASE CONSIDER THIS THOUGH...

QUOTE: Originally posted by icmr

I'm VERY MAD about all of this.

Here's an idea. Someone starts a national Railfan club and if you are a member you get a card that says you can legally be around the tracks, take pictures, and viedo tape the trains. That way you can be there and no problems.

Would that it were that simple!

When a train sounds audible warning at you do you know the correct response?

I'm not knocking Railfans...

I've just known way too many bodies picked out from under...

You want to be the police officer (one of those BIG BAD Police officers) who goes round to tell your wife and kids that your parts are down the morgue? Oh Yeah... and the Coyotes will be snacking on the bits they didn't find... after the fire crew finished hosing your blood,guts and brains off the neighbourhood.
Got the idea...?

I was taking a train up to London with a girlfriend. As we walked across an invisible line at the station entrance she laughed. (By the way, that's the same line where the commuters turn their brains off automatically and expect to be ejected gently at the other end on time to the nanosecond)...
So,anyway... I asked her what was funny. Her chuckle was because she'd noticed other rail workers come out of an office/mess room as her train pulled in the day before. She said that she saw a magic transformation as they crossed some other invisible line. Both they and I apparently changed "mode".

her observation was correct... we do... I don't know how... it gets in the blood...

Rail workers still get killed and maimed...

When I have new staff I give them this example...
Do you play football/American football/cricket/baseball/basketball/... ?

Okay... so, when you are playing you need to have a strong awareness of where your team members are around you, where the opposition are, what's happening, what APPEARS to be developing and several more likely alternates that could happen.

Okay... so you play on Sundays and when you can fit it in... You need to have the PROFESSIONAL SKILLS that would get you into Manchester United , the Red Sox or whoever... This isn't a hobby ... it's a job.

That's Exactly the sort of awareness you need to develop when "on or about the track"... which means from about ten foot before you cross the boundary.

You need to have that "radar" scanning every second you are there.

I've come so close to being spread thin by a Class 47 doing 70 that my colleague watching past out. (Which put him at risk of injury).

I've known a Station Master who was a good guy and red hot on safety get spread the length of West Croydon Station.

What chance do you expect someone wandering about with :-
no proper training,
no mentoring,
no proper experience,
probably little or no proper equipment...
to have?

Do you know how far back you should stand from a train doing 70?

Do you understand "turbulance"?

We had a very nice young lad, a vicar's son, no vandal or trouble maker, wanted to get some really good pictures... so he climbed onto a car... got away with it until he tried to climb over the catenary...

They wouldn't let his parents see what was left.

They'd had to chip molten flesh off the car roof.

You could (in this country) do a "Track Environment" course... £1,100... after you've paid for your "Personal track Safety" course.... and, as someone that started 25 + years ago I don't reckon either is worth zip....

The way I was trained... I went out with a steam man who'd worked on the track during WWII. He told me what NOT to do, then what to do.

If I started to move the wrong way I got a smack in the ear on that side... barbaric?... a train ... doing 1 mph... doesn't know anything about culture... doesn't care... it's pieces of metal... moving.

I got the message... and the above time is still not the only time I've had to stand back fast and take a shuddering breath.

I WANT RAILFANS TO ENJOY RAILROADS.

I DON'T WANT THEM TO END UP IN BODY BAGS.

There is one thing that I tell all new staff is THE MOST DANGEROUS THING ON THE TRACK...

IT'S YOU.
YOU ARE WHAT WILL PUT YOU IN DANGER...
NOT THE RAILROAD
NOT THE MANAGEMENT
NOT A FRIEND
NOT YOUR WIFE
NOT YOUR HUSBAND
NOT YOUR KIDS

YOU

Which do you reckon is the more likely to get you into danger? ...

Drugs in your blood?
Alcohol?
Fatigue?
The row you had with your parther?
The letter from the IRS?
Concentrating on what you are doing?

HEY! (As they used to say on Hill Street Blues) "Let's be careful out there".

ENJOY YOUR RAILROADING


We had years of IRA bombs before 9/11 etc. I've evacuated and searched stations and trains (I even contributed to a Motorway being shut in the Rush-Hour). One thing I would reckon... you don't see someone leaving a supicious package standing around with a camera chatting. You also usually get a bad felling about people that are trouble... though you may only realise that it was a bad feeling after the trouble went down.

Then again... railways may be publicly owned/owned by the Governement (I don't know your law) but that doesn't mean a right of access. Would you expect to walk on an artillery range? Even more simple... if you were walking on a freeway would you argue with an officer telling you to get off? (Here walking on Motorways is illegal).

Trains DON'T go round you.

Photography is innocent, harmless etc etc. Yup... until you're not paying attention ...except to the loco on the far track ...and the train moving back on the near track takes you out.

Officially you have to get a permit to take any pictures on British railways/ Network Rail property... I've never known where you would get one. If you are outside the fence you are outside the fence... unless it's signed MoD land (Same as DoD).
People DO get absorbed in taking pictures... and fall off platforms... you've probably seen those "hilarious" videos of people filming the kids and falling in the pond on TV. do that with a train and...

Why should the Engineer have cardiac arrest?

I notice that in the account someone said "wait until we get someone to escort you... " this is exactly my point... and probably why he got arrested... it sounds like he didn't wait for someone going out of their way to provide help for him to be safe. how long would he have had to wait for an escort. The escort is there to save him from getting killed. What's a photo worth? Had he thought about the risk to himself? to others? Does he realise the complications of extracting a body from under a train?

Okay the cop may have been heavy handed... a train wouldn't be.

A win for the terrorists? only if you let it be. Think... we have to watch EVERYONE who wanders where they can do themselves or others harm... the more people there are just wandering around the easier it is for a maniac to go un-noticed. Also, if I don't stop you... on what ground do I stop anyone else? This is simply another reason for being sensible and policing ourselves. You don't leave your baggage standing around at an airport ... I HOPE!... same applies around trains.

Another line on the same thing... when mobile phones first went "hands free" we kept seeing people wandering around platform ends apparently talking to themselves... "Look-out! A jumper"! Then we got used to them... so a jumper walking around talking to him/herself became just someone talking on the phone...

If you don't want "Big Brother" laws don't give the law makers an excuse to bring them in...



NOW YOU GOT ME MAD TOO!



1. You got a ticket? “You got a right to be there”!
Yeah…like you’ve got a ticket to the Superbowl…so you’ve got a right to run down to the end zone to get the perfect shot of a touchdown.
Try it… if you’re lucky the Cops will get to you before the fans do… before the players do.
2. You have a “Human Right” to play Russian Roulette with an automatic pistol if you want to.
Yeah, well, maybe…. Just do it on your own property, where the travel-on won’t hit anyone else… oh yeah, and in a body bag so no-one else has to clear up your mess.
3. Now I wasn’t there so I don’t know exactly what went down…BUT…
Maybe the cop was heavy handed… the guy had been warned about “Amtrak Cops” already… If I’m warned that there’s “trouble” about I keep
a low profile, I’m ultra polite… I take the cop’s number… I discreetly record what happens on my cell phone… In a location like that in this
country I would make sure I was on CCTV and my solicitors would be demanding a copy of the “Chain of Custody” records of the tape plus a
secured copy of the tape.
Then again… though this wouldn’t justify bad policing… what has the cop dealt with recently? Has he not long scraped a railfan off the
track… a drug abuser, a vandal… they all look the same after a train’s gone through them…
4. Some cops are stoopid… some railfans are stoopid… Thank God for potty training! Either way that’s my taxes are paying for the time
taken/wasted… and he should be out giving speeding tickets…
5. Would you stand in on the Freeway to take truck photos?
6. The 9/11 maniacs were “genuine” flying enthusiasts… went to flying school… got proper training…
7. What does the engineer of an intermodal at speed do… hang out the cab and check your “Enthusiasts Pass”?
8 . There is a miniscule minority of people that do the bad things… they foul it up for all of us… and the media don’t help… look at Katrina… first
thing we hear is about rapes, looting, shootouts… how many thousands of acts of caring have we not heard about?
9. Can’t say I count that closely… but how many US citizens are there? How many bombs/terrorist incidents have you had in the last ten years? (One
is too many). We have a national programme called “Crimewatch”… it always ends with the line “Don’t have nightmares”. If we all run around in
fear the maniacs have won. You don’t smoke while putting gas in your car? So just use the same sense about terrorism… we shouldn’t have to but
we all have to live with it. You can’t live on “red alert” 24/7/365.
10. Hey… if you’re a railroad cop… please remember… we’re as passionate about our hobby as you are about yours… you probably get a bit addicted,
a bit blind to reality… put the cuffs on gently… please sir.