A problem with hills...

[Anonymous]

How about multiple switchbacks? Run a track at a grade thru a wye turnout to a stub (long enough for a complete train) end, throw the turnout and back the train again up grade thru another wye turnout on another stub end track. Repeat as needed to gain elevation. Many logging and mining roads used this to gain elevation without miles of continous running over land that may not be practical. Portions of these switchbacks could be directly above another track with occasional bridges and tunnels to minimize long runs of hidden track. Best of luck with your design, I can really relate to very limited space.

[ukguy]

Another option would be to just have the 2.5" drop down to staging and have the staging hinged at the lead in track.

That way you would only have one track over the hinged joint with the 'ladder' beyond. The ladder could be on casters at the loose end for support enabling a good length of staging, 8'-12'. Usual methods of alignment would be used at the hinge end much like a walkthrough gate only longer and hidden under the main deck.

The small (2.5) level gap would not be a problem as you could 'swing' the staging area out for access, and to remove/add rolling stock, although this would not be an every 5 min experience,maybe just once every session if even that often.

With auto switch machines this would be a reletively easy to achieve solution to the problem.
Something to ponder.

Have fun & be safe,
Karl.

[Anonymous]

I am still a ways from building yet, but I have made a decision. I will just have a track drop slightly (just enough to be just under main level, for a hidden run) so I can have a complete loop. I am going to pass with the staging yards, for now. I figure worst case scenario I would need to build a removeable extension, but I think that will be a ways down the road. One thing I was thinking about is maybe building in N scale. Maybe you all could help me with that.(not to take up space, but maybe I will post new thread).
Thanks guys, and gals if any
Morgan

[Anonymous]

No problem at all with switches on grades...PROVIDED the WHOLE switch is in the same plane (not the Boeing kind)... the flat but not level surface can even be angled sideways... don't know why it would be on a small layout but...
If you think about it what you are most trying to avoid is a change of angle anywhere that the wheels may try to go in a direction other than the one you want them to go in... so that's mostly the common crossing (frog) but also the curved switch blade... also the outside stock rail in a curved switch. The risk is for the wheel to ride up over any of these... so if the angle changes (either up or down) you are building in trouble... this applies to ALL switch laying anyway. Which means that if you have a switch where cars keep dropping in the dirt you would do well to put a straight edge along each route to see if you have any high or low spots...

As to grade... it depends on what locos you are using to shift how many of what cars... I recently tried to get some answers on the practical experience of this ...and failed dismally. I plan to shift 30 car ordinary weight H0 trains behind 2SDs or 3GPs up fairly long grades (they're long to me). If you're only shifting 6 to 10 cars behind one loco you have a different issue... less of a problem.
After my (largely) non-result I stumbled on something from NMRA which reckoned that a 2% grade (1:50) was about maximum and 4% (1:25) would stop most locos.

I was happy because I'd worked out for 1:60... cos I want to drop 1' in an available 60' run... I gues that the ruling grade after easements at each end will be about 1:55...

Remember this... if you have 10' /120" to fall 3" ONLY your AVERAGE grade will be !:40 (2.5%)... your ruling grade will be 1:35 (about 3%) or worse.

You have to have easements... the vertically diferent tangents of grades and level track must be brought together in just the same way that your tangents and offsets must meet correctly for sideways curves... otherwise your cars will be more likely to suceed in their efforts to go straight on.

Solution I'm planning to use for grades that could be used on a helix,,, having set a solid base level as something constant to build on... I'm planning to support the (off scene) grades between vertical pairs of threaded bars (we call them "studding"... not the same thing as used in interior house walls) The cross beams under the trackbed material will be capable of vertical adjustment on nuts located on the studding... with locking nuts paired to each supporting nut so that I don't spend my life re-setting everything.

I've seen this system suggested by (I think) Peco... I don't know if they make anything to do it.

What would be useful would be washers cut or mouded to the required grade to sit between the bearing nut and the trackbed... but they may not be essential only relatively slight grades.

The essential thing is to start with a solid base.

An alternate to an elevator that I have seen suggested (in a Kalmbach layout design book) is a vertical "stub switch"... basically the same thing as an ordianry elevator but instead of the deck moving vertically you have a hinge at the dead end and the other end moves up or down. You wouldn't get so much vertical difference without a lot of stresses on your couplers and a risk of the train sliding... don't know if anyone has done it.

I don't think that putting a wiggle in the graded track would give sufficient extra length to be worthwhile. It would have a direct effect equivalent to increasing the grade... so whatever you gained in length you would offset by lateral pressures/added loaded/hauling resistance.

PLEASE let us know what solution you use and how you get on.

[pcarrell]

First let me say hello and I'm glad you have thought ahead enough to come up with a plan. I feel your pain for cramped spaces.

Now let me see if I can help.

You can indeed have turnouts on grades, it's just not a good idea to have them in the transition (the very top and the very bottom) of the grade. As to sidings, you will have to figure out a way to keep the cars from rolling if they are on a short siding, or if you can make the siding longer maybe you can level the grade on the siding so the cars don't roll. This would be preferable if you are using automatic coupling/uncoupling as that has to be done on a level area.

Now for the other issue, height.

How about a train elevator on one end of the layout? Then you don't "need" any grades at all. They would only be for scenic purpose's. The train would run off the edge of the layout, out of sight behind a hill, whatever, and pull onto the elevator. The whole train then gets lowered to the lower level as a unit and backs off the elevator into a fiddle yard. A new train backs from the fiddle yard onto the elevator and gets raised. Then it pulls off the elevator and onto the layout.

Just a thought.

Maybe it won't work for you but I thought I'd throw it out there.

[selector]

A 3% grade is small "o" okay, but is considerably steeper than the vast majority of grades in the real world, unless...unless...you had helper engines or some other system of pushing or pulling groups of cars up that grade. So, you might still be able to do it.

Also, and I hate to suggest this in view of the conventional wisdom, but maybe a couple of gentle curves (say 26" radius or greater) could be added up that slope, thus helping you to gain the elevation, but drawing the end of the grade a couple of inches closer to the bottom of that grade. A radius less than 25" will impart significant friction into the wheel-rail interface.

(holding his breath...)

Otherwise, yup, a re-do on the design.

[Anonymous]

No, unfortunatly I think a helix is out of the question( I would need 2), I would completly redesign before trying a helix. I am wondering if anybody knows what is too much for a grade, I am thinking 3.5% might give me them few extra inches, although with a 22 foot grade and 2.5% I only get six inches of difference, which is only a third of what I would like. Yes, I think a replan is in the very near future. Maybe I could work on convincing parents to let me have the whole rec room, they never use it, and all that is in it is a tv and couch! :-)
Thanks for everything,
Morgan

[tommyr]

Morgan
If you do a Google search for helix there is a free downlod called helical. It doese all the work for you.
Tom

[Anonymous]

Thank you Tom. I am off to do some math. I will post back with results.
Morgan

[Anonymous]

I saw an add in Model Railroader for a helix, so I don't know that great carpenters skills are required. I'll see if I can find the company.

[tommyr]

Hi
I have turnouts on grades. The only problem is if the turnout is feeding a siding. A car spotted there will need some way to prevent it from rolling. Hope this helps.
Tom

[Anonymous]

I have a layout plan, that I like. Part of the problem is that I am in a very space precious area. My plan is a 1.5 foot shelf going along a 6x16x7 foot wall. For my plan to work, I would need a loop to go to a lower level, so there is a continuous loop, and for 2 staging yards. I have heard you shoulden't put a turnout on a grade, so I did some measuring and at 13 feet (the absolute most I can go without having turnouts on a grade) with a 2.5% grade I only get a 4.75 (approx.)inch difference. I am thinking I would need at least a foot, maybe a foot and a half difference to be able to do anything on the staging yard. I thought about maybe a helix but me nor my dad are good carpenters, so I threw that idea out the window. I am thinking my plan needs a big revision, unless anybody can help. Thank you,
Morgan M
PS-This is HO scale, that might help you.