Outside third rail

[underworld]

Does anyone have experience with modelling an outside third rail or know of any online or magazine/book articles???

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

underworld

[Anonymous]

Try this:

http://www.southernelectric.org.uk/segmodelling3rdrail.html

Good luck - he mentions taking 16 hours to lay 24ft of the stuff!

[Anonymous]

Some parts of UK railways are 3rd rail DC (760 volts DC)... most of Southern and around Liverpool...modellers do model the "juice" rail... I've never seen parts advertised BUT if you can find someone modelling Southern on the Web they may be able to help. Models I've seen use something like code 83 for the running rails and code 50(ish) for the juice rail... they probably use some sort of beed to represent the insulating pots supporting the juice rail about every 5th tie. Don't recall what they did about the end run on and run off slopes.

I'm assuming that you're asking because you want to model 3rd rail electrification rather than you have old 3rail models... hope so... 3 rail are only really collectables these days.
If you think 3rd rail is awkward... try the London Underground... it's 4th rail... the centre 4th is not really a rail shape but almost square... which raises the point the outside 3rd is a rail shape but flat not round topped and the web is very short.
Off cuts make very good little anvils for modelling. (Can't cut it with a hacksaw though)!

Oh yeah, I've never known anyone use modelled outside 3rd to supply power to the trains... they stick with 2 rail... there would be serious issues with picking up from the 3rd rail via modelled shoes/shoe beams.

Safety wise - full size - if any part of the collection gear on a train is in contact with live juice rail ALL the collection gear is live... this also means that if a single shoe bridges an isolation break it will juice up the isolated section from the live section.

[pedromorgan]

the outside third rail is easy to model if ou are willing to take your time and study plenty of photographs.
peco make the third rail insulators in their individulay range.

you really do need to study though as the layout of the third rail is a very strict practice. however. when you get it looking right it is very rewarding. it really stands out and will set your layout apart from others.

things like the line speed and signelling types will affect the third rail details for example. there is a formula to work out the maximum gradient of the end of the third rail that the collector shoe hits. this varies from rail network to rail network and they do look different. even in model form. on the london underground the high speed cast iron impact plates on the end of the third rail can be 6 feet long on the faster stretches.

the P4 society in england makes correct section 3rd rail. i dont know about us.

you need to be particularly careful around stitches. remember that a shoe cannot hit the third rail sideways and so you cant have a single piece of third rail along the curved part of a point.

i did a small diorama to display a D.C. kits 2H about 3 years ago. i was very pleased with the results.

good luck with your modelling

Peter

[pedromorgan]

a good side line to this is placing magnets on the rolling stock to trigger a reed magnet that can make a camera flash bulb go off next to the rail. this is well tried on several london underground layouts and looks great. the cheap throw away cameras are a good source of parts

Peter

[cjcrescent]

I personally haven't seen any online, but I do remember the articles in MR about Robert Hegge's Crooked Mountain Lines. He totally freelanced electric operations and at one time he did an article on taking down his catenary and going to third rail. The article told how he did it, even down to the pickup shoes.

The CML was O scale but the techniques could be used in HO as well. Hegge used to be HO. It may be worth it to locate what month and year these articles were, and get copies of the mags from a train show/used mag dealer, or a copy of the articles from MR if out of print.

[rtstasiak]

Since I have some New York Central blood in my veins, here's a couple of ideas:

1. Third rail trackage has lengthened ties every 20 feet or so to support the third rail. The actual spacing in model railroad practice depends upon "looks" rather than structural concerns.

2. A toy train "hack" to speed up construction is to use small copper or brass nails as supports. The third rail can be sweat soldered to the heads of the nails. Later, these temporary supports can be desoldered and replaced with scale supports. Drive the nails straight in for overrunning third rail, or use Kadee coupler pliers to bend the nails into an inverted "J" for underrunning third rail, like on the NYC.

3. Third rail gets really nasty around complex trackwork. Short pieces of third rail are often placed on alternate sides of the running rails through switches and junctions. Sometimes, there isn't any place to put the third rail, in which case the train must coast through without power to the next powered stretch or use an alternate source of juice. On the NYC, itty bitty pantographs and OVERHEAD were used in the caverns of Grand Central Terminal. The PRR and LI used "reach cars" where additional power pickups, an extension cord to the engine, and an old flat car, added operating interest.

4. Set of multiple unit cars or double headed engines can easily make it over gaos in the third rail if they are equipped with jumper cables between units' third rail shoes.

I've included reference to "toy train hacks" because the prototype solutions are likewise simplistic in spirit and almost as effective. Dignity is not part of the equation, however.

Rich

[Anonymous]

Wow, you guys really bring back memories, and good luck to anyone with the patience to model the third rail. I lived near the old Chicago, Aurora and Elgin tracks when I was a kid. I remember hearing about a kid who was killed when he fell into the rail while taking a country hike along the line, and I was always afraid when my dog was temporarily lost, not realizing animals probably have instincts about such things, as they did just before the Tsunami in December. Sorry this is off the modeling topic. It will probably be taken off, and that's okay, too. You just hit a memory nerve with me. I'm glad those juiced rails are gone.

[jrbarney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by underworld

Does anyone have experience with modelling an outside third rail or know of any online or magazine/book articles???

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

underworld

Underworld,
Here's a link to an earlier thread on this topic:
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=26748&REPLY_ID=264411#264411
Hope this helps
Bob Barney
NMRA Life 0543

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by geoeisele

Wow, you guys really bring back memories, and good luck to anyone with the patience to model the third rail. I lived near the old Chicago, Aurora and Elgin tracks when I was a kid. I remember hearing about a kid who was killed when he fell into the rail while taking a country hike along the line, and I was always afraid when my dog was temporarily lost, not realizing animals probably have instincts about such things, as they did just before the Tsunami in December. Sorry this is off the modeling topic. It will probably be taken off, and that's okay, too. You just hit a memory nerve with me. I'm glad those juiced rails are gone.

Don't believe it... cats, dogs and badgers REALLY stink when they fry on the juice. Badger is worst.
Safety around 3rd rail... it's ALWAYS LIVE... the idea that it only comes on when a train is about is WRONG...
and overhead AC has an induced field danger zone... it WILL reach out and hit you.

[BR60103]

Each 3rd rail installation has its own quirks.
The 3rd rail should be on the opposite side of the track from the platforms. Generally, it's on the inside on long plain stretches.
There is a gap at turnouts. TTC had a gap longer than the wheelbase of their 60-foot cars. It may have been shorter than the 80-foot cars (or they had battery support for lights -- no blinks)
some roads had little ramps on theside of the 3rd rail so that pickup shoes could ride up onto it at turnouts.
Longer tie every 6th for support.
Lots of big heavy wires.

[underworld]

WoW!!! Thanks for all of the information and links! [:)] My situation is that I have aquired some prewar Marklin Gauge 1. I have had a problem finding track for it. I used to see tons of it at shows for practically free, but now since I have the trains I can' t find the track. GarGraves does make a three rail gauge 1 track but the gauge 1 switches that they make are only two rail! [xx(] A friend of mine has a shop that specializes in G....he just sold me a lot of used Lionel G 2 rail track for super cheap. I had seen a web page some time ago where a guy had some old Hornby 3 rail HO trains but he really liked the Peco HO track. He added a third center rail using track nails and copper wire. I thought about doing that but then I thought an outside third rail would be interesting and probably easier to deal with for switches and crossings. Don't worry....I'm not going to mangle the vintage trains.....just add some sort of outside pick up shoe that can be clamped on. I'll keep everyone posted on my work.

Thanks

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[retsignalmtr]

if i remember right the late John Armstrong had an outside third rail on his layout. i think it was o scale though. when i worked on the NYC subway the third rail had what was called a side approach apron around switches that extended out at an angle from the third rail to lift the contact shoe on the car up onto the top of the third rail. it was made of metal, was alive when the rail was and was only 4 or 5 inches from the running rail. it was very dangerous. they did a lot of damage when they fell off. it has since been replaced by a dip rail. metro north (former NYC ) no longer has the third rail on the roof of the tunnel in GCT. the dual powered diesels operating from the third rail sometimes stall on the third rail gaps on the line of slip switches if they are not moving fast enough and require someone to boost the loco with jumper cables ( i've done it with subway trains ) or restart the diesel engine. in my last year working on the subway i fell between the live third rail and running rail. fortunatly i was able to tuck my arms under me as i fell instead of reaching out to break my fall and i was also wearing heavy carhartt work clothing.

[Anonymous]

What’s your pick-up method???

If you are looking at moving the collection outside you appear to not mind making some adjustments…
Okay… so if it is a shoe pickup you will need a rail for it to collect from… BUT…

You could improve appearance and save yourself a whole lot of work by going for centre stud contact.

This was cutting edge one time.

What you need is a metal skate (just like the board of a skate board) suspended by parallel bars between the wheels. This needs to be insulated from everything else with a feed to one side of the motor… just the same as a collector shoe.

Between the rails you provide a line of “studs” down the centre. These can be as little as a line of copper nails with a wire feeding them. To be posh you use screws driven through from below with a common feed to them.

When I was a kid there was still a row going on whether screws driven from below could give enough electrical contact to provide a reliable feed… people actually insisted that you HAD to use roundhead screws driven downwards… even that you had to solder a wire along the tops. Of course H0/00 would NEVER work / take off…

Meanwhile, back in the present… You can work out the details… as I recall my Dad used a stud every third sleeper space except where there was a need for a stud every two. At switches the studs simply follow both centre lines.

The skate needs to be long enough to ride on three studs at a time. Most of them were sprung… more to damp-out any bounce than to hold them down. That much metal hanging free between the wheels tends to hold itself down… they were about 9-12mm wide… again, work out what works for you… Oh yeah… they were “double ended” unlike a skateboard… so that they could run both ways. It all works better if you make a gauge to maintain a constant level for the tips of the screws… ie you put the gauge bar on the rails and drive the screw up to meet the cut-out in the underside of the bar… cut-out because the studs must be higher than the rail heads so that the skate doesn’t hit the rails/short out at switches.

Hope this is useful. It should be a lot less work than a 3rd rail that you don’t really need.

On the subject of falling on/near the juice... we had an 8 car pulled in behind a 4 in the wrong place that left the last two cars hanging out over the switches. A lady got out... HOW does anyone get out without looking???... anyway... when we'd picked her up and sent her to be checked over... there were imprints from the backs of her hands in the crud/oil of not one but two juice rails in the angle of the switches... and she was worried about bruises?!?!

Another time a colleague was clipping points (putting a big G cramp under the rails to lock the blade against the stock rail). A piece of paper blew past him. Reflexively he slapped at it and hit the juice (clipping was the one time we used to work right up against live juice). It threw him 20 feet or so... we assume because the DC made his muscles do more of what they were doing. He survived with no outward signs... but rumour had it that his wife reckoned that he glowed in the dark for months afterward. This is one of those stories you have to add "Don't try this at home children".

Our uniform and tools were designed short whenever possible to reduce the risk of contact when crossing the juice. If you look at pics of Southern dummy signals you will see that they are usually half moon shaped... horizontal across the lower edge... instead of round on other regions... this is for the same reason... I was told.

If you got it wrong the juice rail could give you a "pat"... I'm told that it's like being hit with a bat... but how did they know what that felt like?

You could also get "arc eye" if you managed to contact between the 3rd and the running rail. I've seen a shovel... what was left of it... that had done this.

[retsignalmtr]

when i worked for the NYCTA as a signal maintainer i was working out of a small yard in the bronx. on of my helpers duties was to turn off the yards floodlights when it got light in the morning which were manually controlled from the car barn on the other side of the yard. it was raining and he put on his rain pants and jacket and crossed the tracks to the barn. i was watching him and saw him stop several times and look around him. when he returned i asked him what happened and he said he thought someone was throwing rocks and hitting him in the back of his head. turns out his wet raingear was touching the third rail as he crossed it and the current traveled up the jacket and slapped him in the head. arc eye (from viewing an electric arc)is a dangerous occurance even from quite a distance away. it feels like you have sand in your eye and is worse if you are wearing contact lenses. the ultraviolet light will dry out the moisture between the contact lens and your cornea gluing it to your eye.

[Anonymous]

Didn't know about the contact lenses... glad I've always worn specs!

Tale I didn't tell, similar to last... we had a very unpopular Permantant Way (MoW) Inspector who came out to a night job in heavy rain also in a long raincoat. He too stopped after each time he crossed the juice. Eventually he started yelling about sacking the ******** who kept throwing ballast at him. Everyone fell about laughing. As he stormed off he caught another clout. Made everyone's night.

Another night a different Inspector came down and started yelling at everyone to stop skiving and get working. In this case the juice needed to be off (isolated). The men said they were waiting for the isolation. He told them the juice was off and get on with it. After some argument they started, keeping well away from the juice rail. The Inspector kept yelling at them to get on. ... the guy responsible for the juice came along and yelled for them to stop. The Inspector carried on as before saying the juice was off. The juice man said "Oh Yeah? Watch this... " and put his "Box of Eggs" (an insulated box with six lamps in it) in the circuit between the juice and the running rail. The moment it lit up like sunshine a worker who had moved over to the Inspector knocked him unconscious with a single punch. the first time he came round he stood up only to be knocked cold again. the second time he crawled away in a shower of stones. I don't know what happened to him but we never saw him round our way again.

I tended to make a point of not upsetting MoW workers...

[underworld]

David Foster It's a prewar Marklin gauge 1....the pick up it has is similar to Lionel or other makes of O gauge. I see what you are talking about is like the current HO gauge Marklin track. The only reason I am considering this is that the three rail gauge 1 track is hard to find.....I used to see it a lot, but now since I have the trains I haven't seen much. GarGraves makes a three rail gauge 1 but the only switches that they make are two rail. I talked to someone at GarGraves and he said that there just isn't enough call for three rail gauge 1 to make the switches. I got a bonch of two rail from a friend of mine for cheap so I thought it would be worth the venture to convert it one way or another. The stud system does sound interesting and probably a bit less fidgety than laying a center wire or rail, or an outside rail.

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D].

[underworld]

pedromorgan Ok....so the fla***ube simulates the spark generated as the pick up shoe makes or breaks contact???? That sounds REALLY cool!!! [:D]

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[pedromorgan]

i know it sounds crude. but it actually looks great. there is a layout over this side of the pond called "city road". it uses this method and it is very realistic. the colour temperature is just right. u use the london underground to get to work evry day (angle-embankment change at Kings cross) and i can vouch for the realism of the flash.

peter

[Jetrock]

www.eastpenn.org/rmc.pdf is an article originally printed in RAILROAD MODEL CRAFTSMAN that mentions ways to model third-rail electric operation.

At least in California, uncovered third-rail was banned in 1945 or so after an accident where a child in Rio Linda died by touching the Sacramento Northern's over-running third rail. It is possible to operate using live third-rail in HO, but a bit tricky I'd imagine.

[Anonymous]

I've read of one layout using "live" 3rd rail - this was in the era before DCC became affordable. The builder added third rail pickups to his stock to power interior and head/tail lamps while stationary, there was also one model with operating sliding doors that used the third rail for power and control of these. This was in P4 (ultra-finescale 4mm) so the system worked pretty well. I think to make it work well in HO you'd have to change to Proto 87 as the tolerances would be very tight indeed.

[pedromorgan]

i cant imagine anyone wanting to actually use the third rail for pickups but it sure looks good when it is correctly modelled.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Hornby 3 Rail 00/H0 (as they and Airfix used to describe their stuff... allowed a little engineering tolerance I suspect) used to run okay as 3rd rail only... I only really recall seeing it once... on someone's carpet... must have been posh - to have carpet in those days.

I'd forgotten that Marklin did a stud system... now I recall they use a copper wire with "bumps" bent in it to stick up as the studs... using screws would be a whole lot easier than sitting for days bending the wire just right. You do only need a screw thick enough to hold itself up and provide the tip for contact... you could use copper hardboard nails... but getting the head height constant would be almost impossible.

When I suggested that 3rd rail would be difficult in 3.5mm above I was meaning accurately modelled 3rd rail. Could be done... but easier to stick with 2 rail... as per Hornby Dublo... which was a real revolution made possible by plastic/insulated ties... I've been wondering since my last on this... how comethe electricity throught the studs - through the baseboard (which was hardboard indoors and plywood out) didn't just short straight to earth... but it didn't and it looks like John Armstrong's system was basically the same.

I've never seen the juice arc on the 4th rail (tube) underground and wouldn't want to... thinking about that... maybe a little bit of flashing around points just beyond platforms... I'm biased, a 3rd rail man, the tubes didn't fla***hat much where I worked with them on the surface at Wimbledon Park.

Just after I started, in the winter of '78, Southern was shut down several times by frost because we didn't get a good warning from the Met Office to send the de-icers out. One morning we had a station FULL... 3 twelve car platforms plus the Booking Hall plus... (You wouldn't believe how many shivering people do not understand the sentence "There are NO commuter trains running on Southern EXCEPT on the Reading-Tonbridge and Hastings Lines").
Anyhow... after a bit a driver reckoned that if he could pull one of the old SUB units out of the yard the ice might be mushy enough for it's weight to get it through and scrub the juice.
We announced like crazy that he was going to come back through platform 2 and would most likely arc a lot. A few people cleared the platforms as we suggested.

Those that saw him move out of the siding in a shower of sparks like Guy Faulkes night went (like us) and hid...

To make sure he got through he came back through 2 road as fast as he could... the sparks wer going up above the gutters over the 1st (2nd to you) floor.

You've never seen platforms clear so fast...

In snow on the Brighton Line I've seen a 200' deep cutting lit up like a football stadium. (One train stuck in the queue the Guard came over to my Box and we brewed up a baby's feed while they waited).

NOW THAT WAS CUSTOMER SERVICE!

Meanwhile, back at the prewar Marklin...

I'd go with either going the full hog on juicing 3rd centre rail... just raid some plain track for the parts and work out where you need the rails in switches. This is favourite if you want to keep the locos original.
2nd choice I'd go for centre studs . With modern adhesives you should be able to attach the skate hanger brackets inside the loco frames with as little "damage" to the original as possible. If you do have to use screws (I wouldn't solder) it would only mean a few small holes (out of sight behind the drivers)(use countersunk 10BA - 12BA if you can- pushing the screw in from the outside/nuts inside the frame). I'm sure that this was a conversion used when I was a kid.

Oh yes, the "tolerances" on most of the old 0 Gauge 3rd railers were sledge hammer size... we used to refer to them as "Steamrollers" because of the enormous wheel treads... something like 6 -10mm.

I don't know what you'd have to do to not blow everything up but, if you have 2rail track you could use stud (or 3rd rail) OR 2 rail on the same track... I suspect that all you'd have to do is put a changeover switch between one rail and the studs/3rd...OH YES... AND TAKE OFF ALL THE STUFF WITH NON-INSULATED AXLES/FRAMES ETC... OR SECURE THEM IN ISOLATED SIDINGS. Bit of a bother but it would increase the scope of your efforts.

You could probably put in an RCD or some sort of trip/reset to test that nothing non-insulated was still on the 2 rail each time you changed from 3rd to 2rail... I don't THINK you need to do it the other way. DON'T BELIEVE ME...MY WIRING IS (to quote "The Mask")... "SMOKING BABY"! ...'still... if it doesn't smoke; it must be right...

Studs done well barely show.. they are FAR easier than 3rd rail... and you don't want to look at the 3rd under steam or diesel if you aren't running electrics... The 3rd aslo NEEDS cleaning just the same as 2 rail... I don't recall ever having to clean the studs... the rails yes but not the studs and that included outdoors.

Have fun!


Oh yes... those camera flash units... the disposable cameras have a warning on them to not take them apart... they are some sort of capacitor discharge... if you know what you're doing take your own risks (don't blame me!)... BUT... they can hurt AND THEY CREATE HEAT... may be brief... but the fire they might start could be a bit longer... especially if it smoulders un-noticed until after you've left your train room...

[davekelly]

Model Memories offers a third rail kit modeled after the NYC (I think). They also make some nifty overhead stuff.

http://www.info-4u.com/modelmemories/hosig.htm#3rail

[underworld]

There is a bit of confusion here. I won't be doing this in HO/OO but in
Gauge 1. The only reason I thought about it is that I have aquired some pre war Marklin Gauge 1.....which is 3 rail. I used to see tons of track at shows and swap meets for very little money. Now I have some of the trains I haven't been able to find much track. GarGraves makes a 3 rail Gauge 1 flex track, but the turnouts (points,switches) they make in Gauge 1 are only 2 rail. They said that there isn't enough call for them to make them in 3 rail. A friend of mine sold me some used 2 rail gauge one for cheap so I figured I could add a 3rd rail. I saw someone head done this in HO/OO....he had some old Hornby but he wanted to use Peco track. He made a center third rail with bare wire attached to the top of some extra track nails. I hAd thought about doing just this but then I started to think about an outside 3rd rail. I think it would look interesting and it would probably be easier to add to the turnouts. I think I'm going to try a small section of outside rail and a version with the stud system.....and I'm definately going to try the fla***ube idea!!! It just sounds so cool!!!!! [8D] Thanks for all of the continued information and advice. I also posted this question in the Toy Train Forum and the Garden Railroad Forum. It's truly amazing the amount of good advice and information that I've gotten from these forums.

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D].

[underworld]

David Foster Any pick up that I might build would be clamped on to the loco....I definately don't want to do any cutting or drilling. I am going to try fabricating a center third rail and the stud system too. I'll be careful with the fla***ubes. I've got some electronics experience, I actually built a strobe unit from scratch when I was in school. Also, I'm a photographer by trade so I might be able to find a good deal on some of the tiny fla***ubes. The show of sparks you got to see sounds incredible! One of those times you wish you'd had a movie camera with you.

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[underworld]

davekelly That is a cool looking kit! I think I might buy one just to see the set up.....and then make some myself. [:D]

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

Just a thought... all this and we've never asked / you've never said... what are the models off... Bigboys? Challengers?[%-)][:)]

[underworld]

The one I have now is a European 4 6 2. I'm not sure what class that is....I don't really know much about the European classification system. I'll try to post a picture if it.

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[underworld]

Has anybody seen the cord for my camera??? [:p]

underworld