Broadway Limited Imports to enter HO scale brass market

[Berk-fan284]

If BLI wants to enter the brass market I say good for them!! I have a number of old (ancient) brass locos that don't hold a candle to their HO plastic steamers( N&W CLASS A, PRR M1A MTN). Besides if you want a REAL SHOCK check out the prices for an HO steam anything in Canada ( 675.00$ Can after taxes at the cheap LHS for the CLASS A, a TRIX BIG BOY is in the low 900.00$ bracket up here).

[Virginian]

Don't just get the NWSL Quarterer, you need the little puller/press too, and you may want to make sure the wheelsets will actually fit in the quarterer before you leap. The Athearn Genesis Pacific and Mikado do NOT fit it by the way. Oh, and then there's the issue that some steamers do not have the wheels set at exactly 90 degrees, and you need to match what you have, or re-do them all.
If you mess with steamers, you may as well bite the bullet and get these puppies, because sooner or later you will need them. And when you do have them, and are a little familiar with their use, you can turn a downright dees-***-ter into a triumph in a very short time. That in itself is well worth the price.
That's the first Bachmann Spectrum I have heard of with a quarter problem, although they almost invented it back in the '70s and '80s. I would call them and see if they will just send you however many new sets of drivers you need; they are very good about that. I needed a bell and a whistle for a heavy mtn. (broken out of the box, and I sent them a REAL LETTER and included a copy of my receipt and the serial number, and they sent me a whole new complete cast boiler assembly, with the bell and whistle already on it.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by WetumkaFats

If you like to tinker with mechanical devices, sooner or later you'll disassemble a steamer to tackle some little flaw in its running qualities. If that leads you into the rods and drivers (long odds it will), a quartering jig is a must. It's surprisingly easy to twist one driver slightly out of quarter, and you'll have the devil's own time trying to find and correct the problem.

Even if you do send the Decapod back for repair, the jig is a good investment. If the idea of tackling a quartering problem doesn't send you scurrying under the bed in fear - and if you're considering it, obviously the idea doesn't frighten you - sooner or later you'll try it. There's nothing worse than digging into a cranky (get it? crank-y? As in eccentric crank, crank pin...[:o)] sorry.) loco mechanism and having to stop for a few days or a week until the quartering jig arrives. I bought my jig years ago, and though I use it very rarely, every time I do it pasy for itself all over again.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by psngrtrn

For starters, there are more collectors of GN Brass than there are actual modelrs, secondly, if you read the release, BLI is producing an S2 that has never been modeled before in either brass or plastic and BY THE WAY, THE OWNER OF BLI ISN'T RESPONSIBLE TO NOR ANSWERS TO THE CONSUMER, HE IS RESPONSIBLE TO THE COMPANY AND ITS INVESTORS
Ch

Any owner who ignores the customers is going to have some very unhappy investors pretty quickly. If the customers don't buy the company's products, then the company loses money.

Personally, I think that BLI is going for another market niche. They are already in HO and N (via a new brand that is probably owned by the same people) plastic with sound. The brass is an entirely different market segment. BTW, I own about three BLI models, a light and a heavy mikado, and an SW7. So far no problems, but all I can do right now is run them back and forth on a six-foot test track. At least, they are better mechanically than my Bachmann Spectrum Decapod that came with the drivers on two axles out-of-quarter. I need to send it back and begin the process of the "Bachmann Shuffle." Or, maybe, I ought to just buy a NWSL quartering tool and re-quarter all five axles.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Darth Santa Fe

QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson

Why brass? Well it is relatively inexpensive and plentiful, it is easy to solder, it is easy to form and fold and bend, it casts and "coins" well.

If brass is inexpensive and plentiful, then why does a brass train cost so much?

1. Because it is only relatively inexpensive - relatively with regard to many other metals, not with regard to plastic.
2. Because brass models are hand-crafted.

Frank

[Anonymous]

I think I may responsible for some of the "price shock" ranting I see here because of my earlier post. My point was not that their brass price is out of line, it is not. I was making the point that BLI has done something new and unique with their inexpensive, high quality sound eqipped locos in HO and that their move into brass seems to run counter to that business model. Certainly I think if you look at high end brass today, $1700.00 is in line with current prices.

My intent was not to bash BLI, I think they have done some great things for our hobby and have pushed the bar up on quality and value for dollar spent in HO plastic models. I hope they are able to sell thses models and they continue to prosper as a company.

BTW: With few exceptions, brass has always been limited runs.

[Darth Santa Fe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson

Why brass? Well it is relatively inexpensive and plentiful, it is easy to solder, it is easy to form and fold and bend, it casts and "coins" well.

If brass is inexpensive and plentiful, then why does a brass train cost so much?

[rrinker]

Well, I'm not much into brass either, due to the prices. But I'm not going to bash BLI over this. Their price is right in line for modern factory-painted brass. If the actual model really looks like that sample, they've outdone Overland when it comes to details. And have you checked Overland's prices lately? That fact that there is only $150 difference between painted and unpainted is pretty remarkable, just see what a custom painter will charge to do all those details. Plus you get the sound and DCC. A Soundtraxx sound and motor decoder, plus speakers, will set you back about $150 - Which makes the $219 BLI PRR M1 an absolute STEAL (closeout price at Standard - all gone now I think).
At any rate, unless some brass falls into my lap at a plastic-type price, I won't ever have any. But it sure is nice to look at.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

The loco's are almost the price of what Car-Max was going to give my mom for her '99 mini-van. I will never pay more than $200 for a locomotive. Just my [2c]

[dknelson]

Why brass? Well it is relatively inexpensive and plentiful, it is easy to solder, it is easy to form and fold and bend, it casts and "coins" well. There were USA made brass kits before there was Japanese brass.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

$1700? Ok, what's that in £...This thing will probably be £1000 landed, with all taxes etc paid (we pay 17.5% tax on pretty much all purchases). To put that in perspective, you could buy a usable, functioning car for the same money. I am amazed by how much some people seem to have to spend on the hobby, and on a single item. I would consider one of their plastic locos a substantial investment for a HO loco (hence why I've not bought any yet - waiting for an E5), that thing is way off the end of the price scale. A live steam, R/C equipped large scale loco can be had for slightly less!

[jacon12]

This seems like a really good thread to ask a new-to-the-hobby question. Why brass, why that particular metal? Easy to form, bend? The right weight?
Jarrell

[Pruitt]

Wow!

You'd think BLI was taking food off some of you bashers' tables to bankroll this venture!

I hope the S-2 makes them lots of money. How do you suppose new products are financed, anyway? Off the failures of earlier models? Or off the profits? If the S-2 is a success, it will provide seed money for more products. Hopefully that will include plastic as well as brass.

I own three of the BLI heavy Mikes and am very pleased with each of them. With their sound and included DCC, they brought plastic steam in HO (a pretty empty category) to a new level of fidelity. Their models may seem a bit pricey, but you pay for what you get, and in a market that asks well over $100 for a plastic diesel, they are not out of line. It takes a lot of time and money to design and fabricate a good-running, fully-detailed production steam loco mechanism in any scale. The difficulties beyond a simple geared diesel truck are not just multiplied several times over - they are orders of magnitude beyond a gear train. I'm a mechanical engineer - I know. Now integrate that with DCC and a sound system that produces amazingly realistic sound - especially considering that it comes out of such a tiny little speaker - and you've got a good running loco at a darned good price for the quality of the product.

Take a late-offering Kato diesel, add the best sound module / DCC decoder you can find and then have someone like Tony's Trains do a professional installation, and how much will you have spent?

So look again at the price of a BLI steamer and think about it a little more. Would you rather go back to your Mantua "Limp-along express?" P2K is pretty good - I have three of them as well (an 0-8-0 and two 0-6-0s). But their price does not include decoders or sound, except for their 2-8-8-2, and it's 525 bucks! Doesn't look like Walthers, at least, had any trouble selling them, though - every road name and number offered is "Sold Out." Gee, their price is right up there with BLI's.

The last time I looked at a GN S-2 brass model (new, in the display case, about 10 years ago), the asking price was well bayond $1,000. Now, with DCC and sound, $1,700 is not out of line.

I didn't mean to go on a rant, but most of the BLI-bashing in this thread, and particularly the bashing by those piler-on-ers who have no direct experience with the products (they don't even model in the same scale, in some cases!), is completely unwarranted. Add to that those who don't have a clue what good brass fetches in the marketplace, and the whole thing kind of chaps my cheeks. Ya think the product is too expensive, fine. Ya don't think the products are very good, fine. Vote with your wallet - don't buy it. $1,700 is too rich for my blood, too - I won't be getting one, though I'd love to be able to afford it. But I'm not going to ba***he company because I can't afford some of their products. Like I do with the Lotus Esprit or the Lamborghini Countach, I'll admire it from afar.

But why ba***he company for an offering you won't be purchasing? BLI did a lot fo the HO steam market - they set a new standard for plastic steam. Life-like and maybe Bachmann (I don't own any of theirs, so I don't know) have too. Affordable to you or not, give credit where it's due. Think about where HO plastic steam was 15 years ago.

[fec153]

Big deal. Can't afford their plastic so darn sure won't buy their brass.
LL , Bachy , love 'em.
Flip.

[Anonymous]

The entire idea of limited runs is starting to infect the hobby in name of profits.

We need to move AWAY from limited runs and keep everything availible for 10 years or so.

I recieved the email from BLI about the engine. Very nice. But I will not pay more than I did for my computer for it.

[dknelson]

If BLI wanted to try something different, I wonder what their brass would sell for if it was not limited run -- that is, if it was kept in a catalog the way plastic manufacturers or importers keep an engine in the catalog? Years ago PFM GEM and some others kept some engines in almost constant production -- the Santa Fe 2-8-0, USRA 0-8-0, and B&O 2-8-0 come to mind. It was the limited run that made brass prices start to get insane.
I also wonder if countries other than Japan and Korea could make commercial brass? I am aware that someone tried Russia, but wonder about Vietnam and India -- both countries with histories of fine work in metal, low labor costs ....
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by psngrtrn

For starters, there are more collectors of GN Brass than there are actual modelrs, secondly, if you read the release, BLI is producing an S2 that has never been modeled before in either brass or plastic and BY THE WAY, THE OWNER OF BLI ISN'T RESPONSIBLE TO NOR ANSWERS TO THE CONSUMER, HE IS RESPONSIBLE TO THE COMPANY AND ITS INVESTORS
Ch

At least one version of the S2 has been offered by PFM and the web page to see it is listed below. All brass is welcome to the market, but it does seem that they are harder to sell today because of the high tooling cost and low production.



http://brasstrains.effortlesse.com/ViewProduct.asp?ModelNumber=003329

[AntonioFP45]

Hmmmmmmmm.

Curious.

A friend of mine pointed out that BLI doesn't manufacture anything. BLI is an "Import Broker". Their products are manufactured by factories that are contracted by BLI to produce specific models.

I admit that I am surprised by this move since the brass customer market has shrunken considerably, according to past kalmbach stats. However, just as with certain sport cars like the Corvette, the brass loco market seems to have a small but strong, loyal customer base. So perhaps BLI's market strategists are counting on this. With "quiet" smooth running mechanisms available today, brass locos can be made to run as nicely as new Atlas units.

And guys..,,,,,...don't forget that, according to DCC Sound experts, brass locomotive bodies can resonate high quality sound even better than plastic bodies. BLI may be on to something here!!!!

So let's not jump the gun in thinking that BLI has blown a head gasket..[swg]

Though I can't afford new brass units one good thing I see coming out of this is that some of the brass collectors that "turned their nose up" at sound equipped locomotives may now be enticed to get a brass unit equipped with "music".

I wish BLI the best instead of condeming them!

Cheers.

[Anonymous]

For starters, there are more collectors of GN Brass than there are actual modelrs, secondly, if you read the release, BLI is producing an S2 that has never been modeled before in either brass or plastic and BY THE WAY, THE OWNER OF BLI ISN'T RESPONSIBLE TO NOR ANSWERS TO THE CONSUMER, HE IS RESPONSIBLE TO THE COMPANY AND ITS INVESTORS
Ch

[Darth Santa Fe]

Why do some engines these days cost more than a used car? Seems kind of weird to me.

[simon1966]

I have never purchased a brass locomotive and frankly don't see the value in a model of any kind for more than $1K. I would like to think that this is just another venture by BLI to enter another market segment. Hopefully this will not signal the end of their plastic locomotives. I can't imagine it will, unless they are feeling the pinch from all the other makers jumping on the sound band wagon. What will be interesting is if they put a lot of effort in getting the sound abeslutely correct for the loco. I assume brass collectors expect the visual details to be very accurate, so presumably the sound should be also?

[dinwitty]

For about 600 bucks I will have a great Electroliner model in brass.

For 1700 bucks...I will pass....

The model makers did good, to me at least it seems they read my mind, coming out with a N&W A, J, NKP 2-8-4, North Shore electroliner, (brass relatively affordable)
W&LE 2-6-6-2 (a model I desired and surprised it got produced)
The brass locomotive market is about very custom made lokies hand crafted.
No mass production here.
But the general market is looking for some affordable variety of equipment.

Guess what my answer would be....

Think Model Die Casting, Bowser, Mantua...the Kits stuff...

the only way affordability can return is a return of the kit locomotive the buyer builds.

[Virginian]

I hate to be the fly in the ointment, but I think it makes perfect sense. I don't know why no one else has done it before. You already have the manufacturing contacts, the distribution network, the research ability, the market knowledge, the accounting and payroll, and everything else, why not cover as many segments of the same overall market as you can. GM sells Cadillacs and Metros, and trucks and cars, and Ford, and D-Benz, and Toyota, etc. all do the same. Nobody makes just one size boat. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for BLI to go belly up anytime soon.
To all the BLI haters, sorry, but based on their products I have so far (all of which I love !), I am hoping they don't introduce anything else I want too soon, because I will have to have one, and I just spent $5800 on my teeth (that's my out of pocket), and I really can't afford it right now. And I didn't enjoy that experience one tiny bit, but I haven't seen any dentists going belly up lately.

[CNJ831]

tatans is correct, $1700 is no big deal price for a large f/p brass steamer these days. It'll be sold out long before it ever arrives on our shores. And remember, BLI evolved from a brass company, so it's no real surprise to see them reaching back into that domain. Expect to see OMI/Tower 55 doing the same thing a year from now...cross advertising for added exposure in hopes of reviving the flagging brass market.

CNJ831

[tatans]

$1700.00 for brass, that's peanuts for brass "collectors" they will sell out in a week (as usual) and wonder what the fuss is all about and the rest of us will wonder what reality is.

[Anonymous]

For $1700, BLI can kiss my butt! Even the plastic stuff is too expensive for me.

[Anonymous]

"Seems to me that there are already high end brass importers doing the same thing"
Nobody that I have seen is doing brass DCC and sound-equipped models. The brass importers are sadly behind the times and BLI simply sees this as an opportunity just like they did with plastic. My only concern is that BLI has a pretty high msrp price. I'm not sure if the street price will be along the lines of typical brass at cost plus 10-15% or what. I guess that will depend on how many they do and who their retailers are. I would hate to reserve one that later went into firesale like someone else mentioned.
Charles

[Anonymous]

Funny that BLI is going to brass as Overland is going to plastic (Tower 55).

Wonder who's right ????

BLI better get their act together - if their first brass is as bad as their first diesels (esp the POS SD40-2), that will end their brass business very quickly !!!

For great detail at a reasonable price, I will stick with Atlas, P2K and Kato.
No brass (or super high dollar plastic) for me - what detail IS missing off the Atlas Masters (which is usually only small road specific items such as horn, antenna, etc.), I can add myself, thank you !!!

[Darth Santa Fe]

They should try to put that much detail into their plastic steam engines at affordable prices. That would probably make them REALLY popular with the scale modelers and people who don't want to spend $1700 on a diplay piece. Bachmann did it with their chinese mikado.