Using Flat Cars As Retaining Wall

[GN-Rick]

I, too have seen old rolling stock used as retaining walls. On the old
Tacoma Eastern branch of the Milwaukee near Mt Rainier, the MILW
used old composite gondolas as rip-rap along a swampy area near
a small river. Parts of them are still there. This line is now used by
Mt.Rainier Scenic Railway for tourist operations and Tacoma Rail
for running freight to and from Morton, Washington. These gons
are literally pushed off the side of the roadbed and rocked into
place.

[Anonymous]

This answer may be boring but...
Retaining walls are usually cantilevers...

Easy way to picture it... when you put a rule over a table edge to twang it... that's a cantilever... the bit sticking over the edge... Now, turn this through 90 degrees... and you have a situation like a fence post. How much the fence will hold up in a wind... or with cows leaning on it.... depends not on the number of wires but on the length of post in the ground and the nature of the ground. So sometimes you put a bracing post on the lee side to add strength.

For a retaining wall the situation is the same as the fence... except that the wind or cows are replaced by the ground being held up on one side. The load may be heavy but is usually pretty constant. The important the important thing is the effectiveness of the cantilever. the earth behind the visible bit of the wall is trying to lever the wall into the open space in front of it. What is stopping it is the effectiveness (or not) of the grip of the ground around the part of the wall that is out of sight below ground... with earth on both sides of it.

Without the bit in the ground all that any structure is is a heap of material on the surface... for example a pile of sandbags. these may do the job.... it depends on the load being applied, for how long... and how well the pile holds together. People in flood zones are familiar with this issue.


That said... the flat cars in the pictures (nice pictures)! look more like a derailment that someone decided wasn't worth the bother/cost of cleaning up. To some extent the cars might help stabilise the embankment in the same way that Rip Rap does.

The cars are the wrong way up to do much though... the frame holds what's on the floor up and the strength in the opposite direction is relatively limited. If these cars were placed as retaining walls they would do their job more effectively with the floor against the bank. they would also do a better job if some sort of posts had been driven in to act as retaining posts.

Looking at the end detail photo... the car has push-pole pockets.... so I suspect it's fairly old (Were push poles taken out of use at any date... are they still in use)? I reckon someone looked at the cost of retrieval and repair against value... and left them there.

The more I look at it the more I think that any movement of the bank would simply pu***he car over the rest of the way onto its top face.

The good news for anyone wanting to use this idea for a retaining wall is that... with the aid of suitable posts driven into the ground on the side away from the bank it could be done. better than that... the useful way to do it would be with the underframe outwards.... which, if you don't mind the cost of a good model... gives a whole lot more detail. I reckon that if it wasn't a wrecked car most of the big brake parts would have been taken off... if you're recycling you save the most expensive parts first.

If the bank were at all mobile a car would need an awful lot of posts or it wouldn't hold up much weight. Might hold up a road track... but a train track? Could be okay above the rail line.... better still... if there is a lower conventional stone or concrete wall with a slope above this could be used as a quick repair if the bank above shifted... if it was doing it's job successfully it might get left there.

Two things you don't want.... the car falling over / onto what it's supposed to be protecting and it causing more problems than it solves.


The usual problem with retaining walls is that they block the flow of water behind them / change the water profile in the land behind. this means that they can act as a dam to underground water. Any dam can be pushed over or burst through. Worse, and in some respects more likely... water trapped behind a wall and over an impervious underground layer (such as clay) can build up until it turns part of the fill behind the wall to slurry.... if the conf=ditions are right this will sheer away from beneath and you will have a landslip... this may take away both the wall and the formation. It's quite spectacular how much bank can disapear in this way.

Hope this is useful.

[ac4400fan]

Looks great!! i Wounder if that might have been a wrek theres too???? something to think about??

carl

[TrainFreak409]

I wasn't able to drop in last night. That's cool stuff, it is!

~[8]~ TrainFreak409 ~[8]~

[tstage]

csmith9474,

Thanks for the pics! That's pretty wild. I would have to say that those flat cars have definitely seen better days...

Tom

[Anonymous]

Photobucket gives you two options for selecting photos they host. One starts like you've posted, with http: The others start with [ img ] and end with [ /img ]. (I've added extra spaces between the square brackets so this will show up here).

The second option is the preferred one on this forum, as your photos apper right within your post, no need to click on to see.

I've added the

Easy as that!

Thanks for posting them in any fashion!

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

verry cool pics

[csmith9474]

Here they are folks. This is my first time posting pics so I hope it's OK!!

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a378/csmith9474/000_0137.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a378/csmith9474/000_0140.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a378/csmith9474/000_0136.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a378/csmith9474/000_0135.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a378/csmith9474/000_0134.jpg

[tstage]

csmith9474,

I sorta thought so but didn't want to assume anything. (I forgot to use the smile myself) Anyhow, I'm looking forward to seeing the pic when you get around to posting it. [:)]

Tom

[csmith9474]

Tom,
I should apologize if that came off the wrong way. It was in fun. I need to start using smilies.

[TrainFreak409]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

I know of a lot of old flat cars that have been turned into one-lane auto and foot bridges, and I know that the Rio Grande used rock-filled hoppers as a wind-break on a portion of their Big Ten curves on the Moffat line, but flat cars as retaining walls is a new one on me. I sure hope you can post the pictures, because it sounds fascinating!
Tom [:D][:D]

Hey, cool stuff going on here. I definitely would like to see this stuff. I may have to get back on this evening. Twhite, do you have any pictures?

This will have to go on my layout somewhere[:D]

~[8]~ TrainFreak409 ~[8]~

[cheese3]

I can't wait. This sounds like a nice project for me.

[tstage]

csmith9474,

Hey, no problem. The comment was not meant as a hassle. Sorry...[:(]

Tom

[csmith9474]

Keep your hat on man!!! Seriously though, I have everything at home and will get this stuff out this evening.

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csmith9474
If anyone is interested let me know and I will post them...

We're waaaaaaaaitinnnnnnnnnng.....

[csmith9474]

I will try to get those pics posted this evening. I just wanted to see if there was enough interest to post them. At Kirby Yard (former Southern Pacific, now yellow fungus) in San Antonio they used an 89 footer as a bridge over a drainage ditch. I guess this sorta of stuff is the ultimate recycling.

[dehusman]

The MKT drove H columns and then dropped boxcar doors between the flanges to make a retaining wall just south of Tower 55 in Ft Worth.

Dave H.

[twhite]

I know of a lot of old flat cars that have been turned into one-lane auto and foot bridges, and I know that the Rio Grande used rock-filled hoppers as a wind-break on a portion of their Big Ten curves on the Moffat line, but flat cars as retaining walls is a new one on me. I sure hope you can post the pictures, because it sounds fascinating!
Tom [:D][:D]

[Fergmiester]

I definately think it would be worth a look.

Fergie

[Anonymous]

Please post them here! Here's how: get yourself a free account at http://www.photobucket.com/ Upload your photos there, and use their supplied links, the ones with the [img] tag at each end. Post the links here. Simple as that!

Bob Boudreau

[csmith9474]

I live in Colorado Springs and have some pics of where the Rio Grande used flat cars as retaining walls for their easement. This is along the current UP/BNSF joint mainline. If anyone is interested let me know and I will post them if I can figure out how. I think this would make for some cool scenery and thought I would share.