Back issues of MR on CDs

[Artschmidt]

I have suggested to Kalmbach that they create and market back issues of MR on CDs. For example, National Geographic has available a set of 32 CDs that contain the first 112 years of their magazines. These CDs contain everything in each issue from cover to cover. They also have an excellent indexing feature.

I would love to get rid of the more than 20 feet of shelving that holds the back issues of MR which I have. They take up valuable space in my train room that I could use for layout expansion. These back issues could be replaced with an indexed set of CDs that would use about the space of 1 good book.

Does anyone else like to see this offering from Kalmbach?

Tarinbuff40

[Anonymous]

yes

[dickiee]

Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a great idea it would be for MR to move into the 21st. century with the rest of us.

[MidlandPacific]

Yeah, this is a great idea: I bought a bunch of library-bound back issues, and they take up a LOT of space.

[brothaslide]

That sounds like a great idea!

[Anonymous]

That is a good idea and make them available separately or as a complete set. Not only do the paper copies take up space but they're heavy!

[IRONROOSTER]

I like the idea, but would have to see the price. Also would want to be able to print out plans and articles. My collection is on shelving under the layout.
Enjoy
Paul

[jag193]

A fantasic idea. Of course, this would cut into their pdf business, but then I can print out the material that I need and still have everything to browse through.

[scubaterry]

I agree completely. I only have two years worth but like you say that space could be used for something more useful. As far as the question on printing from a CD? Should be no problem, just like printing from any file on your computer.
Terry T

[littleboom]

They could also offer the back issues on a single DVD. Imagine popping in one DVD and searching for anything that MR ever did![8D]

Mike

[nfmisso]

Yes, and the other publishers on model railroad magazines too.

[jfugate]

While I would love this as much as the next guy, much of MR exists previous to the advent of desktop publishing. This means very labor-intensive scanning and indexing work to get anything that would be searchable.

While the market might be there for National Geographic because of circulation, the market for MR is a drop in the bucket in comparison. The price of the electronic copy would be astronomical, no doubt ... so it's not going to happen unless it was a labor of love for a cadre of vounteers.

Dream on ... but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate
While I would love this as much as the next guy, much of MR exists previous to the advent of desktop publishing. This means very labor-intensive scanning and indexing work to get anything that would be searchable.
...
Dream on ... but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Dragon Magazine, certainly a 'niche' publication, is available on DVD. It goes back- OK, not as far as MR, but well before Desktop Publishing was big. I can't remember how searchable it is- haven't had time for much RPG-playing since I got married, but it wasn't all that bad, IIRC.

As far as the PDFs, it is interesting to ask- how many people are actually buying them? Personally, they're too expensive for what you get. $6 for ~12 pages, $15 for 45 pages ($.50 to $.33 per page), etc. is kinda steep- compare with $20-$25 for the ~100-page books ($.25 per page), when all you're getting is data- not even nicely-printed. If they were offering the PDFs around $.10/page, I would be more interested.

Brian Pickering

[AltonFan]

Having moved about fifty years worth of Model Railroader for the third time in five years, I would love nothing better than to have MR on CD, if the price were right, and all the material in the magazine were included. But I tend to agree with Joe Fugate that the cost might be too high against the potential market. (Actually, the last time this subject came up, a Kalmbach editor said as much.)

OTOH, Bob Hundman has announced that he will be releasing N Scale on CD in the near future. (But then again, N Scale is published only six times a year, is a smaller, less intensely graphic, publication, and first appeared around 1990.)

This is an issue that will not go away. Hopefully, advances in technology will make it possible.

[jfugate]

Brian:

True enough ... but they did have computers when Dragon started so while not pasted up electronically, they probably have all the text in electronic form. That alone is enough to make a *huge* difference. My guess is none of MR prior to about 1970 is available in electronic form in the Kalmbach archives.

This means almost 40 years of magazine would need to be scanned as an image page by page, then OCR'd page by page, and meticiously proofed for scan errors. That's probably several person years of work ... and somebody would have to pay for it.

Kalmbach would probably sell a few thousand copies. Dragon could even have been done by some fans on the cheap, since there's probably less than 10 years worth of magazines that would need to be done this way.

[potlatcher]

If space is an issue for storing MRR mags, you can always do what I did. I used to store my mags (nearly 25 years worth) in copy paper boxes and had 6-8 boxes worth. First, I thinned the crop by picking out issues that had no articles of value to me and gave them away (to friends and to the local club for use as giveaways for the kids at shows).

I then took the remaining issues (still several boxes worth) and a razor knife. I went through each issue page by page and cut out all the potentially useful articles and other interesting items. I kept only a few layout articles, most construction articles and prototype info, all paint shop colums, and occasional other tidbits I found interesting. I placed the table of contents on top of the stack and placed the cover face down on the bottom, and corner stapled the stack. Everything I didn't keep (mostly ads) went into the recycling bin. I then placed each issue into its own clear plastic "page protector" sleeve and put 3-4 years worth into a 3" three-ring binder. Now, my Model Railroader collection takes up only 6 binders - less than one shelf on my 3' wide bookcase. Total magazine collection takes up only two shelves.

I also keep some issues whole (newer or significant ones) for occasional browsing.

Yes, there are some disadvantages to this. My idea of what information is relevant has changed slightly over time and there are some issues I wish I hadn't given away or articles I wish I hadn't disposed of. But guess what, I can pick up back issues for 50 cents at the LHS, and I have bought a few issues that I have owned once before. No big deal.

The main advantage is the space saved (it's amazing how few "meaty" pages there are in some issues of MR). And when I want to look for an article, I can skim forwards through the binders to check the ToC or I can skim backwards to look at the covers.

No, this system isn't for everyone, but if you want to save space and can't wait for a CD or DVD that may never come, this is one way to do it.

Tom

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate
True enough ... but they did have computers when Dragon started so while not pasted up electronically, they probably have all the text in electronic form.

Actually, the first several years-worth in the DVD were just scans of paper copies. It was longer than that before Dragon was done even mostly electronically. You're right, though- that it would take some work.

QUOTE:
Kalmbach would probably sell a few thousand copies. Dragon could even have been done by some fans on the cheap, since there's probably less than 10 years worth of magazines that would need to be done this way.

Nope, it was done by Wizards of the Coast, the owners of all things AD&D. 250 issues were included at the time. Also, I doubt that more than a thousand or so copies of the Dragon DVD were sold- us gaming fanatics aren't all THAT common. [:)]

Anyway, I'm not saying you're totally wrong, just that it >has< been done. Bigger concerns are actually in the area of copyright protection and piracy- once something is commonly available these days in electronic form, it seems that there are too many people who feel that it should now be available via file-sharing systems for free. If you want an example of something that I also wish were available electronically, and likely NEVER will because of these concerns, consider the board game Advanced Squad Leader. I know, from discussions with the publishers, that just about everything is in electronic form (and what isn't, will be Real Soon Now because they're trying to get it back into print...). However, because of the prevalence of file-sharing systems, and the extremely limited market (there's probably around 1000 of us worldwide who both play and would purchase this), I doubt it would ever happen. Even if the publishers decided it was worth the risk, I'll bet that the lawyers at Hasbro (which actually owns the rights to the system) would sign off on it.

Brian Pickering

[jeffshultz]

The nice thing about an electronic version of a magazine is that once created, it's available forever... it might take Kalmbach a few years to recoup the expense, but it's possible that they eventually would.

I wonder if they could look at the possibility of creating one out of the issues for which they do have electronic files to guage interest? One thing... even if it had 50 issues on it, they couldn't price it like that. I could see maybe $50 per decade.

[CNJ831]

This subject has, of course, been broached quite a number of times in the past on this forum. On at least one occasion a Kalmbach rep responded that at the time they had no interest in committing MR to CDs. I suspect their position is unlikely to change in the short term.

As Joe and others have pointed out, with at least 40 years of the magazine only accessible in a paper format, the job of tranfer to CDs would be huge and one really has to wonder how many copies could actually be sold...especially if the project turned out to be very expensive. Likewise, it would cut into MR's sale of back issues, PDFs and other similar projects we've yet to get wind of.

CNJ831

[WickhamMan]

OK, I doubt the cost of such a manual intensive indeavor would stop anyone in this day of outsourced labor. I think 10 bucks would likely get them some Chinese prison labor to scan the whole 40 year's worth in less than a couple of weeks. [:)]

Obviously, the CDs would be "off the charts" expensive because they would be giving away the store. Most importantly, the security on something like this would be enormous. The same Chinese laborer who scanned the things would likely be selling them on the not-so-black-market within days (weeks?). Once the electronic cat is out of the bag, back issues would become next to worthless. MR is taking the prudent route with this by selling things peicemeal, thereby reducing their risk of mass distribution. [;)]

[ereimer]

if it ever happens i'll be buying a copy . and if anyone from Kalmbach is listening i'll gladly pay $100 - $150 for it . i love getting some idea in my head and looking it up in the magazine index here to see how i'ts been done in the past , and finding that i actually have the article in my collection . not having the article is a pain . hehe

[Anonymous]

My favorite music magazine has done this - released the entire history of the magazine - back to 1970-something on DVD.

Once the DVD came out, I took all my issues (about 17 years worth), sliced and diced, cutting out only the issues I "couldn't live without", and scanned them into my computer. I know if I ever absolutely have to have some old issue, I could always find it on ebay, or just buy the archive DVD for $200. Small price to pay for freeing up 17 years of shelf space!

This motivated me to do the same with my MR's. Sliced & Diced, and now I have a beautifully organized group of articles that I "couldn't live without". As someone said above, if I realize there's some article that I tossed that I can't live without, I could always buy a back issue from MR, or on ebay.

Meanwhile, I keep ZERO magazines longer than a couple weeks, but still have all the articles I can't live withou. Sweeeeet!!!

[exPalaceDog]

This would certainly be great!

This would probably mean that the material could be searched by machine making things easier to find.

If possible, the drawing should be in a format that would allow the user to alter them to his scale.

The Old Dog has to wonder if copyright issues might be a problem.

Have fun

[dinwitty]

I stopped buying MR and the model magazines because it would have grown my paper collection way high.
I have back issues going to the 40's including RMS, RR, Trains. It kills room.
I actually want to thumb thru the mags electronically and not muddle up the paper which could crumble the really old copies.
Some modern magazines are on CD only on the store shelves.

I want to scan all my mags for archiving purposes, it is a wealth of info.
I can only think of if MR/RMC whomever other mags might think about doing a classic mag reprint in some form and have new ADs in it to help support it.
I wi***hey could do something.

[exPalaceDog]

The Old Dog just realized that I have to rain on this parade.

Putting the older volumes of MR might be a great way the make this material available to newer models.

But it may NOT be the best way to insure that this material remains available long term.

Any storage media has a limited life. The Old Dog has heard the value of 15 years for CD's. If you think that you can a CD, store for twenty years and still have the material, you may be in for ann unpleasant surprise.

An note that even if the media is "good", you need the hardware to read it. Anybody still have a 5 1/4 foppy drive?

Have fun

[Anonymous]

exPalaceDog,

I don't agree. The beauty of digital is that the Data itself doesn't age one bit. Sure, the medium might. So you replace the medium.

I backup my Data on my business computer all the time. I don't care if a recordable DVD or CD only lasts a month - I've already re-backed up by then.

As for the 5-1/4 floppy drive - I could care less that it's gone. Any data I used to have on a 5-1/4 drive that I still need is now being happily backed up onto DVD's. No big deal. In 10 years, I'm sure it will be backed up onto a chip of some sort.

With storage space getting bigger and bigger, and cheaper and cheaper, saving printed material in the future will be a total piece of cake. Now you've got people working on figuring out how to store music and video. Music is becoming cheap and easy - video is the next frontier.

Saving magazines forever will not be a problem. It is as easy as any other form of digital records that have to be kept for decades. Easy!!!

I don't see MR doing this because they've said they don't see it anytime in the near future. But it is certainly possible.

There are A LOT of ads in the magazine. Strip out the ads, and there's not a ton of material in there.

Someone should sit down with a magazine and figure out how many pages of solid stuff are in there, and how much is ads.

[exPalaceDog]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

exPalaceDog,

I don't agree. The beauty of digital is that the Data itself doesn't age one bit. Sure, the medium might. So you replace the medium.

I backup my Data on my business computer all the time. I don't care if a recordable DVD or CD only lasts a month - I've already re-backed up by then.

As for the 5-1/4 floppy drive - I could care less that it's gone. Any data I used to have on a 5-1/4 drive that I still need is now being happily backed up onto DVD's. No big deal. In 10 years, I'm sure it will be backed up onto a chip of some sort.

The Old Dog would suggest you consuilt your Accountant in the near future.

It sounds like you are doing a good job of during frequent back ups. They will be worth their weigh in gold if your hard disk crashes.

But what about longer term problems? What if you find that someone mis-entered the FICA withholding tables for this year in payroll and you need to rerun all the payrolls since the beginning of the year? The Old Dog has actually seen that happen!

Oh no! The IRS just called. They want to see the detailed data to back up some entries on your 1999 tax return. If the Old Dog remembers correctly they have seven years to audit your return. And if they turn problems in one return, they can go back another seven beyond that.

The CFO just called, he needs a report from the 4th qtr of 2003 reprinted.

Besides the daily back ups, you probabl;y need a set of backs up say for the end of each accounting period for PERMANENT retention.

And that means you need to plan to copy those tapes forward to new media when the old media gets say five years old. And you had better make sure that any files on an old type of media are transferred to new media, before you eliminate the hardware need to read the old media.

Then there is the matter of off site storage.

Have fun

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

exPalaceDog,

I don't agree. The beauty of digital is that the Data itself doesn't age one bit. Sure, the medium might. So you replace the medium.

I backup my Data on my business computer all the time. I don't care if a recordable DVD or CD only lasts a month - I've already re-backed up by then.

As for the 5-1/4 floppy drive - I could care less that it's gone. Any data I used to have on a 5-1/4 drive that I still need is now being happily backed up onto DVD's. No big deal. In 10 years, I'm sure it will be backed up onto a chip of some sort.

This is really a touchy and troubling subject with regard to the future survival of information/data. I started out in the punchcard era and have passed through all the subsequent recording methodologies and I am very unhappy to see how things are evolving. Yes, some of us do completely backup all our data but I think you'd be surprised how many don't and the crash of a machine or a total change in reading medium causes these data to be lost forever. Not all that long ago NASA encountered such a problem when they wanted to read data "tapes" from space missions dating from the 1960's and early 70's. They had no machines capable of handing them!

Belonging to some photography clubs, the other members and I often lament the probability that 50 years hence we are going to find that very little layperson image records exist from the first half of the 21st century. Digital cameras, as we know them today, are likely to be a highly transient form of image making. Unlike film imaging, which prevailed in one form or another for almost 150 years and can still easily be viewed today, little in the way of current historical imaging (in the sense of images of people, places, and things taken by common people) is likely to survive and still be viewable in the future. All that will remain referencing common, everyday life, will be commercial recordings and a minute amount of personal imaging. Documentation of the progression of town and area development and histories will be lost. Family images of famous or important people, personal reaction to histoical events, lost. The way people lived and interacted on a day-to-day basis, lost. Don't expect to see the ilk of Ken Burns historical documentaries in the distant furtue...the material simply won't be available.

I'd hate to see all those wonderful personal libraries of MRs dumped for a CD with a very limited usability life.

CNJ831

[cuyama]

The myth of the short usable life of CDs is pernicious. From testing done by a number of standards bodies and labs, the key issue appears to be the conditions under which the media are stored. In conditions that are typical of homes (and of magazine storage), the life expectancy is from 57 to over 500 years, depending primarily on heat and humidity extremes. A very brief summary of testing results from the Defense Technical Information Center at Ft. Belvoir, VA is online at:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/digest/digest2001-1/Nonprintmed.html

The above report cites National Institute of Standards and Technology and Eastman Kodak sources. A simple Google search on the topic will result in many other links with useful information.

It's likely that the more pertinent concern three or more decades hence will be the ability of operating systems to decipher materials encoded today. But given the ever-increasing computing power of processors and the steadily declining cost of memory (of all types), it's more than likely that solutions will be found for this problem.

By all means, back up your data often, and this includes personal copies of archival material such as magazines on CD. But hand-wringing over the possibility of a CD of MR issues deteriorating seems a waste of electrons.

[exPalaceDog]

QUOTE:
Belonging to some photography clubs, the other members and I often lament the probability that 50 years hence we are going to find that very little layperson image records exist from the first half of the 21st century.

The Old Dog suspicts that one could add most of the 20th to this "black hole"

The "Don't worry, it's on micro file" crowd may be in for some surprises of the unpleasant type. Film stock doesn't last for ever.

On top of that, much material is endanged by inproper store. The Old Dog is waiting to see the next "that note book page material" ate my slides story in trains.

On top of that, it is likily many of the negatives and prints for some big chucks of our are sitting in files cabinets being damaged by acid from the file folders and other papers in the files.

As for materials that were published, a good deal is being lost due to "acid paper".

QUOTE:
I'd hate to see all those wonderful personal libraries of MRs dumped for a CD with a very limited usability life.

Agreed! But please note the Old Dog has seen reports of "acid paper" problems with volumes of RMC just in the last week or two in this forum. People don't know what it is, all they know is the magazines breaking apart like old leaves.

Good luck

Oh yes, let's not forgot the historian's nightmare, the delete key.