Model Railroad Design Theory 101

[Jetrock]

QUOTE:
Please don't get the Old Dog going again on this subject.

As for these portrait photographer. One of their methods was to stop at the gate and offer th GI a ride downtown. Instead they ended up at his "studio". And somehow, by the end of the evening, the GI ended signing a legal contract for maybe $300 of photos.

The Old Dog can't believe the JA was in this crowd. But the Old Dog wishes that he had stayed out of this business.Some busineses are so dirty that they make anyone involved look dirty.

If you have some specific evidence that John Allen did this sort of thing, then show it--if not, then stop spreading such a ridiculous and specious rumor. It is obvious that you really don't know much about John Allen's life and are pulling these sorts of associations out of thin air.

I do recommend picking up a copy of Westcott's "Model Railroading with John Allen" and reading it. If you did, you would know the rest of the story.

Allen was a photographer--he studied photography and fine arts at UCLA. He didn't get rich taking photographs of GIs--he received an inheritance, which he parlayed into a respectable stock portfolio, and was known for his frugal living habits. "The Old Dog" took two unrelated parts of the man's life and assumed the relationship between them.

Lumping John Allen in with these unscrupulous folks is kind of like assuming that all Vietnam veterans are mentally unstable and violent, merely because some folks came back from that war with psychological problems--inaccurate and unfair. If you can't get over your own personal prejudices, kindly keep them to yourself!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Stuckarmchairing

Avoid 101 track plans at all cost, those plans are obsolete by todays standards, and dont offer much in the way of realistic operation, theres sidings and yards but no staging.

I dont even know why MR publishes it.

Welcome from DownUnder.

I think you are being a little unfair to 101 Track Plans. Not all are spaghetti bowls

Whilst it is not linear sincere I am using plan #66 'Eureka Shasta and Southern' by Bill Wight as the plan shows me that I can fit an 'O' scale layout with 60" curves in a double car garage.

The layout will sit on steel storage shelving 1800mm (6 FT) above the floor so that a compact car can be garaged underneath.

The layout datum is approx 50" above a false floor I have built in one half of the garage - the other half being occupied by the compact car.

The garage ceiling is 2900mm (9FT 6"). 400mm (16") below this I will place round the walls staging. At this height the staging sits just above the garage door rails whilst the main layout sits approx 400mm below those door rails.

101 Track Plans saved me 'design angst'.

Oh and by the way, by twisting Eureka City yard I can get a small rail-water transfer.

Another book of interest is 'The Big Book of Model Railroad Track Plans' by Robert Schleicher, published by MBI Publishing Co (www.motorbooks.com).

As others have done I also recommend both books by Iain Rice which are published by Kalmbach.

regards

John L

[exPalaceDog]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

On the portrait photographer thing ... it all depends on your perspective.

If people feel it's worth the money and are willing to pay the price for the photos, is anyone holding a gun to their head to make them buy the photos?

Please don't get the Old Dog going again on this subject.

As for these portrait photographer. One of their methods was to stop at the gate and offer th GI a ride downtown. Instead they ended up at his "studio". And somehow, by the end of the evening, the GI ended signing a legal contract for maybe $300 of photos.

The Old Dog can't believe the JA was in this crowd. But the Old Dog wishes that he had stayed out of this business.Some busineses are so dirty that they make anyone involved look dirty.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate
A good business man charges whatever the market will bear. We can feel sorry for the "poor guy" who would pay those prices, but business is business. If it's a rip off, then people would eventually wise up and that would be that.

WRONG! A good business man will try to make a reasonable profit and no more.

Consider your local hobby shop. Maybe he has finally gotten a couple of those new MP1500's in. Remember, he is a small operation. He gets his stock after all the big mail order houses have gotton all the stock they want. If the customer really wanted that engine ASAP, he would have mail ordered it. Also consider that mail order houses probably can sell engine at price that is less then your hobby shop can buy it for. The hobby shop has on one advantage, it can hand that engine to you accoss the counter, you can get it "right now". But if you are willing to wait a month or two, the mail order house can give you a much better deal. If the hobby shop wants to move that engine, they had better be offering it at a "good' price. They might be able to get enough, to make a small profit. But if they get greedy, the mail man gets the business.

Also consider this, if the hobby shop tries to sell everything at maximum the market will bear, someone is likily to open a shop with more reasonable prices. The hobby shop I deal with often sells items at less then MSRP. Some of that clearly is to move inventory that is not selling too well. But funny thing, no one else has tried to open a hobby shop nearby.

Have fun

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Guys,The best layout design is NOT found in a book..You see a layout should be based on YOUR givens and druthers..You can look at deferent layout designs to see how some author shows his givens and druthers but his design may not fit your needs.I have seen layout designs in books and magazines that made no sense at all and was nothing more the a glorified train set loop.So,I urge you to design your own layout that fits YOUR given and druthers.

I wouldn't do it any other way. Still, I'm only 5 months into this hobby and i figure I've got a few years ahead in building a basement layout. I'd want to make as few mistakes at the design level as I can. I figure if I read what the greats say about layout design, I might just avoid a few rookie mistakes down the road.

[BRAKIE]

Guys,The best layout design is NOT found in a book..You see a layout should be based on YOUR givens and druthers..You can look at deferent layout designs to see how some author shows his givens and druthers but his design may not fit your needs.I have seen layout designs in books and magazines that made no sense at all and was nothing more the a glorified train set loop.So,I urge you to design your own layout that fits YOUR given and druthers.

[jfugate]

HighIron:

Agreed. Hearsay and speculating is tantamount to gossip, especially if it slanders John's good name. It's even worse to do that when someone has passed on.

[Anonymous]

I feel that we should not question JA's lifestyle. From the books and articles I have read about him and his work which contributed greatly to the hobby... his passing is a great loss to us all.

We should not be questioning this man's life.

[jfugate]

On the portrait photographer thing ... it all depends on your perspective.

If people feel it's worth the money and are willing to pay the price for the photos, is anyone holding a gun to their head to make them buy the photos?

A good business man charges whatever the market will bear. We can feel sorry for the "poor guy" who would pay those prices, but business is business. If it's a rip off, then people would eventually wise up and that would be that.

If the business kept thriving and wasn't illegal then that's not a shady operation but a legitimate business. The prices might be high, but if the quality is also high, then you happily pay it. And since when is making a good living a crime?

[IRONROOSTER]

Read Frank Ellison's writings on model railroading - they are available in back issues of MR. In particular read "The Art of Model Railroading" series last reprinted in full in August 1964-January 1965.

I personally think that 101 Track Plans is still a valuable book, especially for small layouts. But then I look at collections of layout plans for inspiration. Except for my first one, I never followed a plan out of the book. (that first one was a 4x8 twice around from the back of John Armstrong's book "Track Planning for Realistic Operation").

As for photography, just because you can get your snaphots developed at Kmart for less than $1 doesn't mean that a good portrait photographer is ripping you off. The professional portraits my wife and I had done with our pets are the ones we hang on the wall in picture frames - the snapshots are in a box in the closet.
Enjoy
Paul

[SpaceMouse]

TrainNut,

I think you hit on something there. A couple months ago I went about collecting books on the logging railroads, short lines, and narrow guage railroads of California. Maybe I should be reading in that direction.

[exPalaceDog]

QUOTE: [i]

geez!...that's as bad as that Jane Fonda visit to Hanoi thingy....but being a U.S. service man at one time, I was very frugel with the mere pentance uncle sam paid us sailors...what's that old saying?..."a fool and his money are soon parted"...we couldn't get a foot down the pier without the money handler's bugging us to buy fake furs, fake leather jackets, fake rolex watches, and every other kind of "junk" known to man ..some of us were smart enough to keep walking, ignoring those trying to make these kinds of business transactions....now on to the question...there was a book called "build a model railroad with personality". (i believe by john olson) that was a really good book..it's out of print now, but if you ever come across a copy, pick it up...it had a neat layout in it with a switching puzzle and a wide variety of little "tricks of the trade "loaded throughout the book.....chuck

1) There is an old quote that fits for these so called vendors, "Hey GI, you want to buy my mother? She is a virgin."

2) What, you haven't built that new industry for your pike, "The Jane Fonda Primary Sewage Processing" plant. Maybe it would fit next to the "R Nixon" used car lot.

3) That book sounds like it would be interesting.

Have fun

[Jetrock]

Maybe "obsolete" isn't the right word for 101 Track Plans--more like "unfashionable."

[exPalaceDog]

QUOTE: Originally posted by alco_fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by exPalaceDog

Hey SpaceMouse, those initials JA brings up a matter that has tthe Old Dog as a veteran so mad that I can not see after killing a twelve pack.

Let's ask now it was financed. From what the Dog has heard, it seems that during WWII John Allen was in the portrait business taking photos of young GI's during training. Apparently, he did quite well, after the war, he basically retired. But since he was able to retire, it would appear that the cost of his work was well above the cost of production.

Mr. Dog,

That's not only unfair, but factually inaccurate. John Allen and his two brothers were orphaned and separated to live with three different families of relatives at a young age. The brothers received an inheritance when their Grandparents died. The third brother died in 1940. John's brother Andrew was apparently a shrewd investor and the two surviving brothers made a large amount of money in stock investing. By all accounts, this brought John Allen the majority of his wealth.

John's heart condition would not allow him to enter the service himself, but he attempted to obtain a military job in aerial phtography during WWII to help with the war effort as he could. He was turned down, but apparently moved to Monterey for the weather, having discovered it on visits to his brother who was stationed in Northern California. John opened a photography studio in Monterey with a partner and they had a branch office at the Presidio in Monterey where they did offer portraits for servicemen.

I have met a number of people who knew John Allen personally and from their anecdotes and everything I've read, he was a generally a gracious man with friends and guests and lived fairly frugally.

Much of the _factual_ information posted above comes from the book Model Railroading with John Allen.

Jon

Thank you for the addition information. We all have feet of clay. All I know is that I have read that John Allen ran a portrait business near some military bases during WW II and was able to retire after the war was over. That simply makes me a little uncomfortable with him. I have never read anything that indicates that John ever conducted himself as other then a gentlemen outside this one area.

Let's hope you are about 90% right, and I am 10% right.

[trainboyH16-44]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

101 track plans - DA-TED. Man, as someone said above, I don't know why MR still publishes that thing. I want to unload mine on someone, but would almost feel irresponsible giving it to someone else! (No offense to anyone, trying to be funny here too - but it is a book of 101 "spaghetti-bowl" layouts). They're actually quite amusing, and they satisfy what I liked in Model railroads as a kid - trying to figure out where the train would pop out next. This is in opposition to the current trends - the train is clearly going from here to there in a very logical manner. Again, I'm sure they were very fine layouts at the time. It's just interesting how contradictory many of the track plans are to the trends that seem engrained by the guys writing in MR.

I'd take it! So far I've built 1layout plan, and used 2 from it in plans which for one reason o another I haven't had time to build. (I built plan 48, added a larger yard, and a helix to make it a good continous run operation. Lots of tunnels and sharp curves, though.)
I do tend to go towards the straight single- or double-track main, though.
Matthew

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate


HighIron:
It's true that you can have a layout without staging, but if your design represents anything but a disconnected shortline, then a connection to the outside world is needed if realistic operations is a desire.

I accept your input. I was thinking about the 4x8 in our local store which does not have a yard but a single track interchage with room for about 5 cars that comes and goes to the real world. We staged inbound freight cars on that before dealing with each of the industries on the layout

The layout was built using a plan as a basis on the book that we are talking about.

I offer the thinking that staging always improves any layout's operation, the problem is finding the room for the extra track.

[Anonymous]

Chip,

I would say the missing link here is a prototype or ficticious road that can serve as inspiration for the layout. You already have all the technical stuff you need (and more) in the sugestions already in place in this thread and what you have already purchased and read. Now what do you want to do????

The value of all this stuff comes in the application of the principles to a design for your layout. In Hollywood parlance, You need a "concept", that then gets developed to an "idea" etc....

To this end, personally I have found that books on the prototype (in my case, Wurms' Hetch Hetchy book, the books on railroads of the Sierras and Burgess' new book on the YV) can be very helpful in getting inspiration to move forward. Seeing other layouts that you like and perhaps operating on a few as well can provide the spark. I basically stole my design (with a few modifications) from a layout that I liked in the area. I then changed up the scenes and track plan to fit the prototypes that I chose to model. Then out came the books to design the track plan. All the stuff about what will fit, how will stuff run, radi, turnout size, rail codes, power districts, staging, helixes..all little details that come after the grand (or Evil) plan has been hatched....The fact that I can go to the Sierras and various places I am modelling and look at stuff (even if it is dirt road where the track used to run) is a big help and inspiration.

If you go the ficticious route, basing it loosely on something that existed will help give a realiustic look to stuff. If you consider Model Railroading to be at least partly art, all great art has to have some inspiration as a starting point...OK, enough from the soapbox now!!!

[jfugate]

I second Byron's recommendations of the Layout Design SIG. I joined in 1987 and from 1987 to 1991 when I designed and built the Siskiyou Line I learned a ton about how to do satisfying layout designs.

I credit the LD SIG with the design approach that helped make the Siskiyou Line the satisfying layout it is today. Operationally, it's quite interesting to run, and the design hangs together pretty well. My list of things I would change if I were starting over is pretty short, and I credit the LD SIG for most of that success.

HighIron:
It's true that you can have a layout without staging, but if your design represents anything but a disconnected shortline, then a connection to the outside world is needed if realistic operations is a desire.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Stuckarmchairing

Avoid 101 track plans at all cost, those plans are obsolete by todays standards, and dont offer much in the way of realistic operation, theres sidings and yards but no staging.

I dont even know why MR publishes it.

Why? Because the plans have value.

Not all railroads have to have staging. Realistic operation is possible if you make the train up in the yard take it to each of the sidings according to the needs of the customers and return the results back to the yard.

Not every layout HAS to have staging.

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

Out of print but useful for many of the basics, and some of the advanceds:

"The Railroad: What it Is, What it Does" by John Armstrong (not Anderson, chip!)

This book has been reprinted (4th edition, 1998) and is currently available at amazon.com and elsewhere. The publisher is Simmons-Boardman Books, Incorporated.

Only some of the chapters are applicable to model railroading and some of the material is repeated in Track Planning for Realistic Operations, but it's still a useful book -- if a bit pricey as new. Used copies of various editions are also avaialble at amazon.com and probably elsewhere.

If one really wants to get deeply into model railroad design, one of the the best resources is the Layout Design Special Interest Group (LDSIG). The LDSIG publishes a magazine, supports a YahooGroups discussion list, organizes regional meetings in a few areas around the country, and offers special programs at NMRA conventions.

Fifteen bucks (in the US) for membership gets you 4 issues of the magazine (magazines come out about 2-4 times per year -- vounteer editors and publishers). It's a great bargain. (OK, I'm a little biased since I edited the magazine for a while -- as did the esteemed Mr. Fugate).

One of the best investments anyone designing a layout can make is to buy the back issue that was a special look at model railroad yards. This is Layout Design Journal LDJ #7 from June 1992. LDSIG membership is not required to purchase back issues.

The SIG has also sponsored an on-line layout design "Primer', but the printed magazines go into more depth on many topics. Membership and back issue information as well as links to the "Primer" and the Yahoogroups discussion list are found at:
http://ldsig.org/

regards,

Byron
http://www.modelrail.us

[jfugate]

If you're talking about the book Kalmbach published on John Allen, Linn Westcott wrote it.

[Anonymous]

Oh, and Chip -- if you've read the book three times and still don't know the author's name (I see you've corrected it by editing now), maybe you were skimming!

<VBG>

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by exPalaceDog

Hey SpaceMouse, those initials JA brings up a matter that has tthe Old Dog as a veteran so mad that I can not see after killing a twelve pack.

Let's ask now it was financed. From what the Dog has heard, it seems that during WWII John Allen was in the portrait business taking photos of young GI's during training. Apparently, he did quite well, after the war, he basically retired. But since he was able to retire, it would appear that the cost of his work was well above the cost of production.

Mr. Dog,

That's not only unfair, but factually inaccurate. John Allen and his two brothers were orphaned and separated to live with three different families of relatives at a young age. The brothers received an inheritance when their Grandparents died. The third brother died in 1940. John's brother Andrew was apparently a shrewd investor and the two surviving brothers made a large amount of money in stock investing. By all accounts, this brought John Allen the majority of his wealth.

John's heart condition would not allow him to enter the service himself, but he attempted to obtain a military job in aerial phtography during WWII to help with the war effort as he could. He was turned down, but apparently moved to Monterey for the weather, having discovered it on visits to his brother who was stationed in Northern California. John opened a photography studio in Monterey with a partner and they had a branch office at the Presidio in Monterey where they did offer portraits for servicemen.

I have met a number of people who knew John Allen personally and from their anecdotes and everything I've read, he was a generally a gracious man with friends and guests and lived fairly frugally.

Much of the _factual_ information posted above comes from the book Model Railroading with John Allen.

Jon

[cwclark]

QUOTE: Originally posted by exPalaceDog

QUOTE: [i]So what other greats shoud I be reading--preferably ones without the intials JA?

Hey SpaceMouse, those initials JA brings up a matter that has tthe Old Dog as a veteran so mad that I can not see after killing a twelve pack. We will ignore for the minute whether a layout should look like the American Society of Civil Engineers had a contest to design the highest collection of useless bridges.

Let's ask now it was financed. From what the Dog has heard, it seems that during WWII John Allen was in the portrait business taking photos of young GI's during training. Apparently, he did quite well, after the war, he basically retired. But since he was able to retire, it would appear that the cost of his work was well above the cost of production. The Old Dog remembers sitting in the barracks dayroom at Lackland AFB during 1970 while our TI warned us about this fraud. It may have been the Veit Nam era instead of WWII, but the vulture were outside the gate willing to seal us portraits for ten times their worth.

If the Old Dog had ever visited the G&D, thing might have gotten unpleasant. Nice engine John. Is that the one you financed by selling a dollar photo to that sailor who died on the USS Yorktown for fiftty dollars? Or was brought by the Marine pilot who was shot down at Midway?

And what rate did you quote that poor Marine mother who wanted one additional photo of her dead son?

This may not be fun, but it is the way I feel.

geez!...that's as bad as that Jane Fonda visit to Hanoi thingy....but being a U.S. service man at one time, I was very frugel with the mere pentance uncle sam paid us sailors...what's that old saying?..."a fool and his money are soon parted"...we couldn't get a foot down the pier without the money handler's bugging us to buy fake furs, fake leather jackets, fake rolex watches, and every other kind of "junk" known to man ..some of us were smart enough to keep walking, ignoring those trying to make these kinds of business transactions....now on to the question...there was a book called "build a model railroad with personality". (i believe by john olson) that was a really good book..it's out of print now, but if you ever come across a copy, pick it up...it had a neat layout in it with a switching puzzle and a wide variety of little "tricks of the trade "loaded throughout the book.....chuck

[lupo]

Hi Spacemouse,
nice literature is also The V&O Story by W Allen McClelland,
about how it was build from the benchwork up, and how it is operated,
first printed in 1984, still available at Carstens Publications inc.,
ISBN 911868-47-X

[exPalaceDog]

QUOTE: [i]So what other greats shoud I be reading--preferably ones without the intials JA?

Hey SpaceMouse, those initials JA brings up a matter that has tthe Old Dog as a veteran so mad that I can not see after killing a twelve pack. We will ignore for the minute whether a layout should look like the American Society of Civil Engineers had a contest to design the highest collection of useless bridges.

Let's ask now it was financed. From what the Dog has heard, it seems that during WWII John Allen was in the portrait business taking photos of young GI's during training. Apparently, he did quite well, after the war, he basically retired. But since he was able to retire, it would appear that the cost of his work was well above the cost of production. The Old Dog remembers sitting in the barracks dayroom at Lackland AFB during 1970 while our TI warned us about this fraud. It may have been the Veit Nam era instead of WWII, but the vulture were outside the gate willing to seal us portraits for ten times their worth.

If the Old Dog had ever visited the G&D, thing might have gotten unpleasant. Nice engine John. Is that the one you financed by selling a dollar photo to that sailor who died on the USS Yorktown for fiftty dollars? Or was brought by the Marine pilot who was shot down at Midway?

And what rate did you quote that poor Marine mother who wanted one additional photo of her dead son?

This may not be fun, but it is the way I feel.

[Anonymous]

I have Malcom Furlow's "San Juan Central" book actually. Beautiful work. Tried to ebay it because I heard one went for $175, and I read through it 10,000 times already on a trip halfway accross the country as a kid. No such luck with mine on ebay.

Spacemouse: I have Track Planning for Realistic Operation or whatever it's called. It's pretty good, but slightly dated.

101 track plans - DA-TED. Man, as someone said above, I don't know why MR still publishes that thing. I want to unload mine on someone, but would almost feel irresponsible giving it to someone else! (No offense to anyone, trying to be funny here too - but it is a book of 101 "spaghetti-bowl" layouts). They're actually quite amusing, and they satisfy what I liked in Model railroads as a kid - trying to figure out where the train would pop out next. This is in opposition to the current trends - the train is clearly going from here to there in a very logical manner. Again, I'm sure they were very fine layouts at the time. It's just interesting how contradictory many of the track plans are to the trends that seem engrained by the guys writing in MR.

For some current up-to-date design materials, Seriously, I say find Joe Fugate's thread on layout design on our very own favorite model railroader forum! He had really good info in there about lengths of sidings in relation to car lengths, train lengths, etc. I don't remember everything he said, but it sure got me thinking about that stuff - can't think about desiging even a small shelf layout without thinking about a lot of the stuff he said - very cool.

I like David Barrow's articles in MR also - he's into linear designs - no U-turns on his layouts, that's for sure. I'm probably such a huge fan of all of his stuff because his previous layout - Cat Mountain & Santa Fe just blew me away when it was in MR in 1990 or so - very linear design. His layout was quite big, but the simplicity of it and realism was so convincing.

People mentioned Iian Rice - I have his "Small Smart & Practical Track Plans" and I totally dig it. Although none of the track plans were perfect for me, his overall philosophy happens to suit me well at this stage in life - small, portable layouts.

Lastly, what I plan on doing with my layout design is posting it on here and asking for some feedback (tried once, didn't get much feedback, but I've changed it since then anyway).

There is a lot of good stuff out there from the guys who are standing on the shoulders of Linn Westcott and John Allen, know what I mean?

[Jetrock]

Out of print but useful for many of the basics, and some of the advanceds:

"The Railroad: What it Is, What it Does" by John Armstrong (not Anderson, chip!)

One thing that will help a great deal in realistic railroad planning is reading books on real railroads. Even though the trains are generally the focus in railroad books, many photos include the track alignments and nearby structures, which are a really good way to capture the feel of how real railroads are set up.

Is there a book available of Malcom Furlow's "San Juan Central" MR series from 1984 or so? That's a pretty good primer for model railroading from the artist's perspective.

[exPalaceDog]

If you have access to a large library with a good MR periodical collection, get a pile of old MR's from about 1945 to 1955. Read anything by Frank Ellison.

Have fun

Note to MR management. Years ago, some one wrote a letter editor, asking while some Frank's articles could not be reprinted. The reply was copyright problems. The MR contract with the authors was for one use. Reprints would require getting permission from the current holder of the copyright. In some cases where the author was deceased, it might be extremely difficult to determine who the legal holder was.

The last the Old Dog heard, copyrights are good for fifty years that may be extended for twenty years if an addition fee is paid to the government.

Since it is now 2005, most of that material should be in the "public domain". If you don't realize the value of the materials in your morgue, maybe RMC should do some reprints to "rub it in".

Have fun

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Chip,

I've begun reading both of Tony Koester's books, Realistic Model Railroad OPERATION and Realistic Model Railroad DESIGN from MR Books.

let me preface this by saying that 'trains of thought' is the first thing i read when i pick up a new issue of MR

i liked , and got a lot out of Tony's Operation book , but found his Design book to be little more than a very long recommendation , with examples , to follow what the prototype does . i guess i'd have found it more interesting if i hadn't read the same advice so many times in MR over the last few years . not that it's bad advice . i was dissapointed that there were so few track diagrams in a book about layout design . in fact there were 12 . and i'm being generous as there were a couple illustrating different ways of doing the same thing .

of course this won't stop me from buying http://store.yahoo.net/kalmbachcatalog/12405.html
when it comes out (estimated ship date 12/31/2005) [:)]